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Old 09-10-2015, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an is NOT a book of commands

Very little of the Qur'an is commands it is primarily examples, affirmation of past revelations, description of Events that occured while the Qur'an was being revealed.
The above is modified to align with the OP.

I find the above assertions ridiculous as a play of words.

A Muslim is by one definition a believer who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah of Islam.
5:7. Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you [Muslims] when ye said: We hear and we obey; and keep your duty to Allah. Allah knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

The terms of the whole contract are stipulated in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and inspired by God.

Accordingly as covenanted, Muslim must adhered to whatever terms are in the Quran.
The question of whether the Quran is a book of commands or not is irrelevant.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above is modified to align with the OP.

I find the above assertions ridiculous as a play of words.

A Muslim is by one definition a believer who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah of Islam.
5:7. Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you [Muslims] when ye said: We hear and we obey; and keep your duty to Allah. Allah knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

The terms of the whole contract are stipulated in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and inspired by God.

Accordingly as covenanted, Muslim must adhered to whatever terms are in the Quran.
The question of whether the Quran is a book of commands or not is irrelevant.
The Qur'an is a revelation of why to perform Islam.

As I said and you quoted me saying;

Quote:
Very little of the Qur'an is commands it is primarily examples, affirmation of past revelations, description of Events that occured while the Qur'an was being revealed.
I did not say there were no commands in the Qur'an. I indicated most of the Qur'an is not commands.

the full quote os what I said reads as:

Quote:
It seems that calls for 2 assumptions.

1. The Qur'an is a book of commands

2. The Qur'an is unique and the only warnings ever given to mankind.


Very little of the Qur'an is commands it is primarily examples, affirmation of past revelations, description of Events that occured while the Qur'an was being revealed.

It is not an original revelation, every message and warning contained in the Qur'an was revealed in past revelations those we know of are the Torah, Book of Psalms and the Gospel of Jesus.
In Surah 5 ayyats 1-12 you have the commands of what is required to be a Muslim. These are what we are to do to the best of our ability.

Not one of them is directing us to hate Jews or Christians. Not one of them is commanding us to harm others, not one of them is forbidding us to have non-Muslims as friends.

Learning how to do those 12 ayyat (The Commands) is found in Previous Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira. Summed up in Islamic Jurisprudence the madhabs

In Surah 5 Ayyats 1-12 give a very general outline of what is required to perform Islam. But those 12 ayyat do outline how to be a Muslim particulary in regards to performing Hajj

Quote:
1. O you who believe! Fulfill (your) obligations. Lawful to you (for food) are all the beasts of cattle except that which will be announced to you (herein), game (also) being unlawful when you assume Ihram for Hajj or 'Umrah (pilgrimage). Verily, Allah commands that which He wills.

2. O you who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlanded people or animals, etc. [Marked by the garlands on their necks made from the outer part of the tree-stems (of Makkah) for their security], nor the people coming to the Sacred House (Makkah), seeking the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when you finish the Ihram (of Hajj or 'Umrah), you may hunt, and let not the hatred of some people in (once) stopping you from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help you one another in Al-Birr and At-Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.

3. Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) - and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An-Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allah and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

4. They ask you (O Muhammad ) what is lawful for them (as food ). Say: "Lawful unto you are At-Tayyibat [all kind of Halal (lawful-good) foods which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits, etc.)]. And those beasts and birds of prey which you have trained as hounds, training and teaching them (to catch) in the manner as directed to you by Allah; so eat of what they catch for you, but pronounce the Name of Allah over it, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Swift in reckoning."

5. Made lawful to you this day are At-Tayyibat [all kinds of Halal (lawful) foods, which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, etc., milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits, etc.). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals, etc.) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time, when you have given their due Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends. And whosoever disbelieves in the Oneness of Allah and in all the other Articles of Faith [i.e. His (Allah's), Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

6. O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles . If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

7. And remember Allah's Favour upon you and His Covenant with which He bound you when you said: "We hear and we obey." And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is All-Knower of the secrets of (your) breasts.

8. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

9. Allah has promised those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).

10. They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.

11. O you who believe! Remember the Favour of Allah unto you when some people desired (made a plan) to stretch out their hands against you, but (Allah) withheld their hands from you. So fear Allah. And in Allah let believers put their trust.

12. Indeed Allah took the covenant from the Children of Israel (Jews), and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allah said: "I am with you if you perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat and believe in My Messengers; honour and assist them, and lend to Allah a good loan. Verily, I will remit your sins and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise). But if any of you after this, disbelieved, he has indeed gone astray from the Straight Path."
The commands of how to do so are found in previous Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira as I mentioned above
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-10-2015 at 02:38 AM..
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an is a revelation of why to perform Islam.
The above is not a precise description of 'what is The Quran' according to what is stated in The Quran.
1. The Quran is a revelation and reminder to mankind to avoid the threats of not believing in Allah and the attaining of PEACE if one believe.
2. If one believe in Allah, then one will have a passport to paradise to earn the corresponding rewards.
3. If one do not believe in Allah upon being reminded, then one will be sent to Hell to suffer eternal torments.
4. To believe in Allah one will enter into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
5. The terms & all conditions of the spiritual contract [covenant] is completely in The Quran.
6. The default of any contract is one must fulfill/comply all the terms and conditions in the contract, i.e. The Quran.
7. The conditions of the contract will include definition of terms, doctrines, principles, instructions, commands, examples, etc.
The above points covers all critical elements to define what is the Quran, what is Islam, describe God, the messenger, and who is a Muslim.
What you do think is missing?


Quote:
As I said and you quoted me saying;
I did not say there were no commands in the Qur'an. I indicated most of the Qur'an is not commands.
the full quote os what I said reads as:
I noted you mentioned the Quran do contain VERY LITTLE 'commands,' that is not an issue.

You mentioned my earlier propositions were based on the overall assumption;
1. The Quran is a book of commands
The above imply you do not agree with my assumptions [perceived] then what you hold is;
Primarily, The Quran is NOT a book of commands
with a qualification 'but it do contain a few commands.'

I think it is waste of time arguing this point whether the Quran is a book of commands, contain little command or has no commands.

The most efficient description of the Quran is what I proposed is the narration 1 to 7 above.
Point 7 above assert there are commands in the Quran. We can easily count the number of actual "commands" [depending on an agreed definition] in the Quran.
Until we do the count, it is pointless to argue whether the Quran is book of commands or not.



Quote:
In Surah 5 ayyats 1-12 you have the commands of what is required to be a Muslim. These are what we are to do to the best of our ability.

Not one of them is directing us to hate Jews or Christians. Not one of them is commanding us to harm others, not one of them is forbidding us to have non-Muslims as friends.

Learning how to do those 12 ayyat (The Commands) is found in Previous Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira. Summed up in Islamic Jurisprudence the madhabs

In Surah 5 Ayyats 1-12 give a very general outline of what is required to perform Islam. But those 12 ayyat do outline how to be a Muslim particulary in regards to performing Hajj

The commands of how to do so are found in previous Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira as I mentioned above
Your twisting of the term 'commands' here is rhetorical and deceiving.
As I said above we need to agree on what we meant by "command" first.

The critical point here as in any contract, spiritual or otherwise, is with 6 above, i.e.
6. The default of any contract is one must fulfill/comply all the terms and conditions in The Quran.
This is a default and there is no room to argue about it regarding making a contract.
Partial compliance will result on partial rewards and punishments.

In compliance totally with the Quran and its principles, it is inevitable Muslims would have to show contempt to non-believers. Such condition is all over the Quran expressed in various degrees.

Quote:
The commands of how to do so are found in previous Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah
and Sira as I mentioned above.
If whatever is in the Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah
and Sira comply with point 6, i.e. terms within the Quran, then it is acceptable to Allah, otherwise it has no validity to the spiritual contract.

Example: If the Hadiths recommended the punishment of stoning to death for adultery, it is not Quran compliant as it is not stated in the Quran at all. The same applies to all other terms.
There is no mentioned of Bukhari or any of the hadiths collectors nor was authority [as stipulated in the Quran] given to them by Allah to process and finalize what should be the Hadiths. In fact the Quran warned of such possible subsequent expositions that will divide Muslims.
There is also no mentioned of dividing Muslims into separate or guided by different Madhabs. Again warning has been given in the Quran against dividing Muslims into sects.

Btw I am not supporting the Quran Only faction. I agree the other texts are useful as guides but whatever is final must comply with what is stipulated in the Quran, the so claimed final perfected and complete revelations.
3:7. He [Allah] it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book, and others (which are) allegorical.
But those [whoever] in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its [allegories'] explanation save Allah. And those [Muslims] who are of sound instruction say: We [Muslims] believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

77:50. In what statement, after this [Quran], will they believe?

45:6. These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?

Last edited by Continuum; 09-10-2015 at 04:21 AM..
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above is not a precise description of 'what is The Quran' according to what is stated in The Quran.
1. The Quran is a revelation and reminder to mankind to avoid the threats of not believing in Allah and the attaining of PEACE if one believe.
2. If one believe in Allah, then one will have a passport to paradise to earn the corresponding rewards.
3. If one do not believe in Allah upon being reminded, then one will be sent to Hell to suffer eternal torments.
4. To believe in Allah one will enter into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
5. The terms & all conditions of the spiritual contract [covenant] is completely in The Quran.
6. The default of any contract is one must fulfill/comply all the terms and conditions in the contract, i.e. The Quran.
7. The conditions of the contract will include definition of terms, doctrines, principles, instructions, commands, examples, etc.
The above points covers all critical elements to define what is the Quran, what is Islam, describe God, the messenger, and who is a Muslim.
What you do think is missing?


I noted you mentioned the Quran do contain VERY LITTLE 'commands,' that is not an issue.

You mentioned my earlier propositions were based on the overall assumption;
1. The Quran is a book of commands
The above imply you do not agree with my assumptions [perceived] then what you hold is;
Primarily, The Quran is NOT a book of commands
with a qualification 'but it do contain a few commands.'

I think it is waste of time arguing this point whether the Quran is a book of commands, contain little command or has no commands.

The most efficient description of the Quran is what I proposed is the narration 1 to 7 above.
Point 7 above assert there are commands in the Quran. We can easily count the number of actual "commands" [depending on an agreed definition] in the Quran.
Until we do the count, it is pointless to argue whether the Quran is book of commands or not.



Your twisting of the term 'commands' here is rhetorical and deceiving.
As I said above we need to agree on what we meant by "command" first.

The critical point here as in any contract, spiritual or otherwise, is with 6 above, i.e.
6. The default of any contract is one must fulfill/comply all the terms and conditions in The Quran.
This is a default and there is no room to argue about it regarding making a contract.
Partial compliance will result on partial rewards and punishments.

In compliance totally with the Quran and its principles, it is inevitable Muslims would have to show contempt to non-believers. Such condition is all over the Quran expressed in various degrees.

If whatever is in the Scripture, Ahadith, Sunnah
and Sira comply with point 6, i.e. terms within the Quran, then it is acceptable to Allah, otherwise it has no validity to the spiritual contract.

Example: If the Hadiths recommended the punishment of stoning to death for adultery, it is not Quran compliant as it is not stated in the Quran at all. The same applies to all other terms.
There is no mentioned of Bukhari or any of the hadiths collectors nor was authority [as stipulated in the Quran] given to them by Allah to process and finalize what should be the Hadiths. In fact the Quran warned of such possible subsequent expositions that will divide Muslims.
There is also no mentioned of dividing Muslims into separate or guided by different Madhabs. Again warning has been given in the Quran against dividing Muslims into sects.

Btw I am not supporting the Quran Only faction. I agree the other texts are useful as guides but whatever is final must comply with what is stipulated in the Quran, the so claimed final perfected and complete revelations.
3:7. He [Allah] it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book, and others (which are) allegorical.
But those [whoever] in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its [allegories'] explanation save Allah. And those [Muslims] who are of sound instruction say: We [Muslims] believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

77:50. In what statement, after this [Quran], will they believe?

45:6. These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?
Just answering this part.

Quote:
The above is not a precise description of 'what is The Quran' according to what is stated in The Quran.
1. The Quran is a revelation and reminder to mankind to avoid the threats of not believing in Allah and the attaining of PEACE if one believe.
2. If one believe in Allah, then one will have a passport to paradise to earn the corresponding rewards.
3. If one do not believe in Allah upon being reminded, then one will be sent to Hell to suffer eternal torments.
4. To believe in Allah one will enter into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
5. The terms & all conditions of the spiritual contract [covenant] is completely in The Quran.
6. The default of any contract is one must fulfill/comply all the terms and conditions in the contract, i.e. The Quran.
7. The conditions of the contract will include definition of terms, doctrines, principles, instructions, commands, examples, etc.
1. Is true

2. Is false. A person can believe firmly and choose to disobey.

3. An unknown. We do not know who will go to Hell.

4. True if you accept submitting to the best of ones ability and knowledge as being a covenant

5. False the Qur'an does specify we are to obey the teachings of all the Prophets and none of those are in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Q5: What do Muslims believe about past prophets and scriptures?(Back to Top)

Muslims believe that all past prophets were sent by God and that the scriptures were Divine revelations in their original form and thus all taught the absolute unity of God. Two of the six articles of faith for a Muslim are:

To believe in the Prophets of God
To believe in the Divine Scriptures

Islam teaches that these Prophets and Holy Books were true at their source and were sent by the same one God who sent Muhammad(saw) as a Prophet and revealed to him the Qur’an.

According to the Qur’an, God has sent His Messengers to every nation:

There is no people to whom a Warner has not been sent. (Ch.35: V.25)

And for every people there is a Messenger. (Ch.10: V.48)

Some prophets have been mentioned in the Qur’an itself, such as Adam, Abraham, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus and of course Muhammad (peace be on them all). Other prophets (not mentioned in the Qur’an) include Zoroaster, Krishna and Confucius (peace be on them all) to name but a few.

As mentioned above Muslims not only believe in all the earlier prophets but also in the revelations and Scriptures given to those Prophets by God. In the Holy Qur’an itself, reference is made to four revealed books other than the Qur’an:
Islamic FAQ - Islam

NOTE: Scholars do disagree as to if Zoroaster, Krishna and Confucius were prophets
6. False.While it is based upon the Qur'an, ahadith, Sunnah and Sira the full complience with Islam is found in the madhabs.

7. True and that will be found in the Ahadith and madhabs.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just answering this part.

1. Is true

2. Is false. A person can believe firmly and choose to disobey.
You don't get the point. This is a very basic principle of any contract.
Basically if one comply with the terms of any contract, one will be 'rewarded' with whatever is promised in the contract. If one choose to disobey or do not comply, then one do not get the reward.
It is the same with the Quran, if a believer agree with the terms, then s/he will be rewarded accordingly.
If s/he choose to disobey, then there is no corresponding rewards.
It is that simple.

Quote:
3. An unknown. We do not know who will go to Hell.
It is not up to you or any human to know and decide on that.
It is very clear in the Quran, if one disbelieve after being reminded, then as stated very clearly in the verses one will end up is Hell, that is what Allah said in the Quran.


Quote:
5. False the Qur'an does specify we are to obey the teachings of all the
Prophets and none of those are in the Qur'an.
The Quran did specify the 'original Quran' was revealed orally to all the Prophets in their circumstance. But subsequently what was written or passed on was corrupted and they thus cannot be relied upon.
What is effective is the latest Quran as revealed to Muhammad which is as pure as the original Quran with Allah.
Therefore all Muslims should obey and comply with the Quran revealed to Muhammad and not the corrupted ones by non-believers [e.g Torah without the mentioning of Muhammad or Gospels with the concept of the Trinity) as presented then in Muhammad's time or today.

Quote:
6. False.While it is based upon the Qur'an, ahadith, Sunnah and Sira the full
complience with Islam is found in the madhabs.
All the conditions that Muslims need to comply with are in the words of God, i.e. Quran, not in the words [expositions] by fallible men as in the Hadiths, Sira and Madhabs. These expositions [with unrelated additions and corruptions] are at best guides but they are not the full conditions of the Quran.

Quote:
7. True and that will be found in the Ahadith and madhabs.
Same as my reply in 6 above.
The signed contract is The Contract and one cannot change it unilaterally.
There can be guides [outside ambit of the contract] to the terms of the contract but these guides are not to be complied with.
One do not comply with the external 'guides' to the contract.

The Quran [immutable] contain all the terms and conditions of the spiritual contract, i.e. the covenant with Allah.
The Hadiths and Madhabs are merely guides to the contract.
Therefore we cannot comply to the 'guides.'
What you are suggesting as compliance with the Hadiths and Madhabs is ridiculous.


I understand there are Muslims who adopt certain Madhabs and belong to certain sects. Now this is a separate private contract that is implied between the schools and the believer. This private and side contract has nothing to do with the essential contract between Allah and the Muslim which bound only by the Quran as revealed to Muhammad.

Often such private contracts deviate from the covenant between Allah and the Muslim. For example if one enter into a private contract that recommend stoning to death for adultery [stipulated in a Hadiths], then it is not in accordance to the main covenant with Allah as there is no such term in the Quran.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You don't get the point. This is a very basic principle of any contract.
Basically if one comply with the terms of any contract, one will be 'rewarded' with whatever is promised in the contract. If one choose to disobey or do not comply, then one do not get the reward.
It is the same with the Quran, if a believer agree with the terms, then s/he will be rewarded accordingly.
If s/he choose to disobey, then there is no corresponding rewards.
It is that simple.

It is not up to you or any human to know and decide on that.
It is very clear in the Quran, if one disbelieve after being reminded, then as stated very clearly in the verses one will end up is Hell, that is what Allah said in the Quran.


The Quran did specify the 'original Quran' was revealed orally to all the Prophets in their circumstance. But subsequently what was written or passed on was corrupted and they thus cannot be relied upon.
What is effective is the latest Quran as revealed to Muhammad which is as pure as the original Quran with Allah.
Therefore all Muslims should obey and comply with the Quran revealed to Muhammad and not the corrupted ones by non-believers [e.g Torah without the mentioning of Muhammad or Gospels with the concept of the Trinity) as presented then in Muhammad's time or today.

All the conditions that Muslims need to comply with are in the words of God, i.e. Quran, not in the words [expositions] by fallible men as in the Hadiths, Sira and Madhabs. These expositions [with unrelated additions and corruptions] are at best guides but they are not the full conditions of the Quran.


Same as my reply in 6 above.
The signed contract is The Contract and one cannot change it unilaterally.
There can be guides [outside ambit of the contract] to the terms of the contract but these guides are not to be complied with.
One do not comply with the external 'guides' to the contract.

The Quran [immutable] contain all the terms and conditions of the spiritual contract, i.e. the covenant with Allah.
The Hadiths and Madhabs are merely guides to the contract.
Therefore we cannot comply to the 'guides.'
What you are suggesting as compliance with the Hadiths and Madhabs is ridiculous.


I understand there are Muslims who adopt certain Madhabs and belong to certain sects. Now this is a separate private contract that is implied between the schools and the believer. This private and side contract has nothing to do with the essential contract between Allah and the Muslim which bound only by the Quran as revealed to Muhammad.

Often such private contracts deviate from the covenant between Allah and the Muslim. For example if one enter into a private contract that recommend stoning to death for adultery [stipulated in a Hadiths], then it is not in accordance to the main covenant with Allah as there is no such term in the Quran.
One can not pick ayyats. Each discourse need to be read as a single message. These does not end with ayyat 7 there are more.

Past 7 you will fine


7. And remember Allah's Favour upon you and His Covenant with which He bound you when you said: "We hear and we obey." And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is All-Knower of the secrets of (your) breasts.

8. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

9. Allah has promised those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).

10. They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.
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Old 09-11-2015, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One can not pick ayyats. Each discourse need to be read as a single message. These does not end with ayyat 7 there are more.

Past 7 you will fine


7. And remember Allah's Favour upon you and His Covenant with which He bound you when you said: "We hear and we obey." And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is All-Knower of the secrets of (your) breasts.

8. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

9. Allah has promised those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).

10. They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.
There are MANY verses exemplifying the concept of 'covenant' in the Quran. Not convenient to mention all, so I merely pick 5:7 to do that. There are many others, example, [mine]

48:10. Lo! those [Muslims] who swear allegiance [fealty] unto thee (Muhammad), swear allegiance only unto Allah. The Hand of Allah is above their [Muslims'] hands. So whosoever breaketh his oath, breaketh it only to his soul's hurt; while whosoever [Muslims] keepeth his covenant with Allah, on him will He bestow immense reward.
16:91. Fulfill the covenant of Allah when ye [Muslims] have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them [the oaths], and after ye [Muslim] have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.

For many of the verses where the term 'covenant' is used, it is used in reference to certain or some non-compliance.

However in the whole context of the Quran, the term 'covenant' would imply the full spiritual contract a Muslim had contracted with Allah's terms, i.e. complying with the whole Quran as revealed to Muhammad.

Thus complying with the whole Quran mean agreeing and complying [where relevant] with all the verses in the Quran [what else?] and that would automatically be complying with 5:8-10, the whole chapter 5 and 114 chapters of the Quran.


Quote:
9. Allah has promised those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic
Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is
forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).
I don't agree with the above in parenthesis, i.e. (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism).
It would be more closer to the original intention if stated as follows;
5:9. Allah has promised those who believe (in the whole of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad) and do deeds of righteousness [in accordance to the Quran], that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (according to what is earned).


Quote:
10. They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.
I also do not agree with the above in parenthesis as there is no completeness. It should be the following;
5:10. They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (in the whole of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.
Since we mention the 'whole of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad' what is there to dispute as that is the words of God.

In all cases as with regard to the spiritual contract [covenant] with Allah based on solely the Quran, there is no room for any authority of the Hadiths, Sira, Madhabs, etc. to be associated with the authority of Allah. These [Hadiths] are at bests guides without divine authority.

If there is any inkling of authority given the Hadiths, Sira, Madhabs, as in your suggesting of the need to comply to them [Hadiths, Madhabs], then that is associating partners or texts to Allah which is a serious great sin. Even Muhammad [mentioned in the Quran] was merely a warner, conveyor of the message, exemplar, and giving of glad tidings only and has no divine authority over Muslims.
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Old 09-12-2015, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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There are "commands" in the Quran.

I believe the question of 'command' is critical but it is not the significant issue when we take Islam as a whole into context.



What is critical are the following points;

1. A Muslim by definition is one who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
Therefore a Muslim must comply with all that is in the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah as revealed to Muhammad.

2. 'All' that is the Quran will comprised of doctrines, duty, regulations, guidelines, laws, rules, commands, exhortations, stories, parables, etc.

3. What is most critical from the Quran in terms of the spiritual contract is what Muslims need-to-do/act and not-to-do in accordance to the terms and conditions of the contract.

4. Since the Quran is the most critical element in the context of the spiritual contract, what is concern is how the Quran contribute to the resultant acts of Muslims in their compliance with the terms and conditions of the Quran.

5. Those elements in the Quran that will effect the actions of Muslims [what-to-do and what not-to do] are those related to threats, reminders, warnings, duty, commands, laws, rules, regulations, exhortation by God, orders, orders to obey and whatever elements that will influence the Muslim to act or not act.
There are many verses in the Quran exhorting Muslims to 'obey Allah and obey the Messengers'.
There are also a lot of verse to the effect of 'O ye Muslim ... do that or do this .. do not do this or that. ..'

6. My point: The critical issue is not whether the Quran is a book of commands or not, rather the focus is on those elements in 5 above that influence Muslims to act in compliance with all those relevant elements in the Quran.

7. The most critical problem is, in the absence of a central authority, Muslims in their zeal to comply with the terms of the spiritual contract interpret certain terms and conditions in the best of their effort which results in terrible evils and violence unto non-believers.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-12-2015 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are "commands" in the Quran.

I believe the question of 'command' is critical but it is not the significant issue when we take Islam as a whole into context.



What is critical are the following points;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. A Muslim by definition is one who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
Therefore a Muslim must comply with all that is in the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah as revealed to Muhammad.
A Muslim by definition is a person who performs the act of Islam of his own free will and with sincerity. This can be done with no knowledge of the Qur'an

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. 'All' that is the Quran will comprised of doctrines, duty, regulations, guidelines, laws, rules, commands, exhortations, stories, parables, etc.
One need not have read or understand the Qur'an to be a Muslim.

A baby with no concept of the Qur'an is a Muslim and will remain such until old enough to make a free will choice not to be a Muslim. All Babies are Muslims and equal to every other Muslim that exists, ever existed or will ever exist.

A person need not be aware of the Qur'an to be a Muslim. But if a Muslim learns the Qur'an exists they will desire to learn all they can about it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
3. What is most critical from the Quran in terms of the spiritual contract is what Muslims need-to-do/act and not-to-do in accordance to the terms and conditions of the contract.
and those will not be found in the Qur'an.A person could comply tith every ayyat in the Qur'an and never be a Muslim. Likewise some of the most pious of Muslims to ever exist never heard of the Qur'an. some examples Jesus(a.s.), Moses(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
4. Since the Quran is the most critical element in the context of the spiritual contract, what is concern is how the Quran contribute to the resultant acts of Muslims in their compliance with the terms and conditions of the Quran.
I believe you will find that many of us will not find that to be a valid concept: That seems to be more of what a non-Muslim thinks Islam is, not what a Muslim does.

The terms and conditions come from several sources. While none are to over ride the Qur'an it is quite clear Islam is learned from many sources which for the most part are summed up in the Madhabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5. Those elements in the Quran that will effect the actions of Muslims [what-to-do and what not-to do] are those related to threats, reminders, warnings, duty, commands, laws, rules, regulations, exhortation by God, orders, orders to obey and whatever elements that will influence the Muslim to act or not act.
There are many verses in the Quran exhorting Muslims to 'obey Allah and obey the Messengers'.
There are also a lot of verse to the effect of 'O ye Muslim ... do that or do this .. do not do this or that.
..'

Threats are a personal opinion. I doubt if you will find many Muslims that feel the Qur'an is threatening anyone. There is only one real duty command and that is to Worship only the one God(swt).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
6. My point: The critical issue is not whether the Quran is a book of commands or not, rather the focus is on those elements in 5 above that influence Muslims to act in compliance with all those relevant elements in the Quran.
When one looks at the amount of repetition in the Qur'an, how much is based upon what was existing knowledge of and comes to the realizations that the entire Qur'an can be understood simply by understanding Surah Ikhlas and Surah al-Fatiha. It becomes much clearer that the Qur'an does not teach how to be a Muslim. That comes from separate revelations to Muhammad(saws) and are learned from how he taught to perform Islam. It is possible to know the Qur'an,but have no idea as to what a Muslim believes or how to perorm Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
7. The most critical problem is, in the absence of a central authority, Muslims in their zeal to comply with the terms of the spiritual contract interpret certain terms and conditions in the best of their effort which results in terrible evils and violence unto non-believers.
Which is why the Madhabs developed, to prevent chaos and anarchy
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A Muslim by definition is a person who performs the act of Islam of his own free will and with sincerity. This can be done with no knowledge of the Qur'an

One need not have read or understand the Qur'an to be a Muslim.

A baby with no concept of the Qur'an is a Muslim and will remain such until old enough to make a free will choice not to be a Muslim. All Babies are Muslims and equal to every other Muslim that exists, ever existed or will ever exist.

A person need not be aware of the Qur'an to be a Muslim. But if a Muslim learns the Qur'an exists they will desire to learn all they can about it.
I find the above views to be an insult to Muslims [no need for Quran] in general and non-Muslims [re baby] and basic intelligence.
This is like forcing an orange to be an apple because both are fruits.

Note the general understanding of what is a 'Muslim'
A Muslim, sometimes spelled Moslem, relates to a person who follows the religion of Islam, a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion based on the Quran. Muslims consider the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad. -wiki
I understand wiki is limited, how I am very certain the above is generally what 1.5 billion (excluding and with the exception of Woodrow LI) define themselves as Muslim.



Quote:
and those will not be found in the Qur'an.A person could comply tith every ayyat
in the Qur'an and never be a Muslim. Likewise some of the most pious of Muslims
to ever exist never heard of the Qur'an. some examples Jesus(a.s.), Moses(PBUH),
Abraham(PBUH)
The above are merely your fictional thinking.
It is the Quran itself and no where else which asserts Jesus(a.s.), Moses(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH) are 'Muslim' in one sense.
The Quran is a work of humans who has self-interests on the above.
If Jesus, Moses, Abraham were around, each would not declare themselves as a 'Muslim.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
4. Since the Quran is the most critical element in the context of the spiritual contract, what is concern is how the Quran contribute to the resultant acts of Muslims in their compliance with the terms
and conditions of the Quran.
Quote:
I believe you will find that many of us will not find that to be a valid concept: That seems to be more of what a non-Muslim thinks Islam is, not what a Muslim does.

The terms and conditions come from several sources. While none are to over ride the Qur'an it is quite clear Islam is learned from many sources which for the most part are summed up in the Madhabs.
If you do not belief the Quran is the most critical element in the context of Islam and as a Muslim you are not give due respect to Allah.
The terms and conditions of the spiritual contract a Muslim entered with Allah can only come from the Quran. The others sources, e.g. Hadiths, Madhabs, etc. are merely guidelines and explanatory notes. These other sources do not have any divine authority over that of Allah's.


Quote:
Threats are a personal opinion. I doubt if you will find many Muslims that feel
the Qur'an is threatening anyone. There is only one real duty command and that
is to Worship only the one God(swt).
I wonder you really have read the Quran and understood thoroughly. Perhaps your memory is failing you. Suggest you read the refresh the Quran again. Even then I know you will be very bias and blinded rather than being objective.

It is not a personal opinion but rather it is objective by general convention. For example, the following direct and indirect words of Allah in the Quran are obviously threat of Hell Fire if a person do not believe or think about leaving Islam.
48:13. And as for him [infidel] who believeth not in Allah and His messenger Lo! We have prepared a flame for disbelievers.

53:57. The threatened Hour is nigh.

51:5. Lo! that wherewith ye are threatened is indeed true,

50:14. And the dwellers in the wood, and the folk of Tubba: every one denied their messengers, therefor My [Allah] threat took effect.

50:45. We are best aware of what they [infidels] say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them [infidels]. But warn by the Qur’an him [Muslim] who feareth My threat.

50:20. And the trumpet is blown. This is the Threatened Day.
Note there are hundreds to almost a thousand of the above direct and indirect threats of hell and other threats delivered to Muslims and non-Muslims in the Quran.
I am sure many Muslims do feel threatened by the above either consciously or subliminally.


Quote:
When one looks at the amount of repetition in the Qur'an, how much is based upon
what was existing knowledge of and comes to the realizations that the entire
Qur'an can be understood simply by understanding Surah Ikhlas and Surah
al-Fatiha. It becomes much clearer that the Qur'an does not teach how to be a
Muslim. That comes from separate revelations to Muhammad(saws) and are learned
from how he taught to perform Islam. It is possible to know the Qur'an,but have
no idea as to what a Muslim believes or how to perorm Islam.
As I had insisted as in essence, a Muslim is represented in core by the revealed Quran via Muhammad. Thus a Muslim must adopt the Quran and whatever there in at 100%.
Chapter 1 is merely a very condensed summary [abstract] of the Quran and Chapter 112 merely define monotheism.
A very condensed summary [abstract] cannot explain the Straight Path that is mentioned in 1:6
5:48. And unto thee [Muhammad] have We revealed the Scripture [Quran] with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a Watcher over it. So judge between them [Muslims] by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each [Jews, Christians, Islamists] We have appointed a Divine Law and a traced-out way [path of actions & practices]. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.
..........
The Straight Path is laid out in a traced-out way in the Quran for Quran-based-Muslims.
So how can one be a Quran-based-Muslim without the Quran?

Quote:
Which is why the Madhabs developed, to prevent chaos and anarchy
I am not going into the details. It is the Madhabs and their deviations and exaggerations from the main principles of the Quran that adding more zeal and contributing to the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims that is going on in the world today.


I am aware the above ridiculous propositions of yours are due to the triggering of your impulses of the 'inoculation theory'.
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