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Old 09-18-2015, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
1. Islam is the Submission to God(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge.

2.As one's knowledge of the Qur'an and of Muhammad increase, so do the requirements for performing Islam

3. The imprtant factors are sincerity and the individuals effort to constantly learn about ways to submit. (Perform Islam)
We are going off point here. There are two points in 1. above, i.e.

i. Islam is the Submission to God(swt).
ii. Within Islam a Muslim has to 'submit' to the best of one's ability and knowledge.

I have no significant issues with (ii) [partial], 2 and 3 above.

However I do not agree with your statement (i) 'Islam is the Submission to God(swt).'
I have presented my disagreement and counter proposal in detail in the following post;
Definition of Islam

Do you have any counters to that approach to the definition of 'What is Islam?'
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Old 09-19-2015, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,349,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
We are going off point here. There are two points in 1. above, i.e.

i. Islam is the Submission to God(swt).
ii. Within Islam a Muslim has to 'submit' to the best of one's ability and knowledge.

I have no significant issues with (ii) [partial], 2 and 3 above.

However I do not agree with your statement (i) 'Islam is the Submission to God(swt).'
I have presented my disagreement and counter proposal in detail in the following post;
Definition of Islam

Do you have any counters to that approach to the definition of 'What is Islam?'
There would be validity to your claim if Islam was an organization with a central leadership. Which it is not.

What is Islam can only be defined by what does the word Islam mean. It means "The action of Submitting to God(swt) "

The Question then becomes how does a person do such? There are something like 7 billion people on this earth probably about 5 billion are theists. Probably most of them, believe they are submitting to God(swt)

So now we have another question, "Is there a correct way to perform Islam? Each person has to embark on that search on their own. Every person that is performing Islam believes they are doing so correctly, that includes all people that believe in the existence of a Monotheistic deity who is the creator of all things.

About 1/3 of the world believes following all or some of the Scriptures of the Abrahmic Prophets is the correct manner of performing Islam (Obeying the one Deity)

So basicaly to learn how a person practices Islam will require asking each individual.

The world does label a conglomeration of groups and individuals as Islam

A few

Sunni
Sufi
Shi'ite
Boko-Haram
ISIS
Wahhabi
Salafi
Ahmadyyah
Yazidi
Druze
al-Qaeda
Ismaili
NOI

Each group believes they are the only one that performs Islam under the guidelines they believe to be doing Islam. You also have a large number that believe they perform Islam but do not adhere to any group.

There is no wayto say each of these is Islam, unless you keep the definition of Islam as being "The Submission to God(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge" Islam is an action, not a group.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:50 AM
 
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"There would be validity to your claim if Islam was an organization with a central leadership. Which it is not. "

The central leadership is allah/muhammed.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,349,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"There would be validity to your claim if Islam was an organization with a central leadership. Which it is not. "

The central leadership is allah/muhammed.

While it is true Allaah(swt) is the Source and reason for Islam, there is no living central religious leader. Each Muslim is an individual and we each practice Islam to the best of our ability based upon what we know. Every individual has to search, find and verify the truth of what he/she learns. No person represents or speaks for all Muslims, for that matter neither does any group.

There are no living central religious leaders for all Muslims. You have to look at each Muslim individually. Every Muslim acts of his/her own free will and represents only him/her self.

You might find reason to worship or not worship God(swt) by reading the Qur'an, but you will not find how to worship or how to perform Islam if you use the Qur'an as your solitary source.

A primary Belief of all Muslims is to follow the teachings of all the Prophets(PBUT) that came before Muhammad(saws)
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Old 09-19-2015, 03:00 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim is by one definition a believer who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah of Islam.
5:7. Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you [Muslims] when ye said: We hear and we obey; and keep your duty to Allah. Allah knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

The terms of the whole Spiritual Contract [Covenant] are stipulated solely in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and inspired by God and no where else.

Accordingly as covenanted, Muslim must adhered to whatever terms are in the Quran.

Do you agree the Quran contain the Spiritual Contract [Covenant] between Allah and the Muslim?

Views?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2:27. Those [who became apostates] who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it and sever [cut, sever] that [contractual bond] which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those [infidels -apostates] are they who are the losers.

The above verse implied the existence of a covenant as ratified [agreed upon] and establishment of a contractual bond between Allah and Muslim[s] that was subsequently broken.
This contractual bond is represented by the terms and conditions offered by Allah and accepted by any Muslim.

The terms and conditions of the spiritual contract [covenant] can appear no where else other than as stipulated in the Quran amongst other knowledge from God.

I noted the majority of Muslims do not understand they have entered into a spiritual contract [covenant] with Allah with conditions stipulated no where else other than in the present Quran.
As such they behave willy-nilly and simply what they thought or as advised what Allah is expecting of them without knowing exactly what their duty and obligations are in the spiritual contract.
Answer:
This is the interpretation of these two ayat, according to the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly

{Quran 5: 7. And remember the blessings of God on you o, and His covenant which [His messenger] ratified with you p, when you said [to the prophet]: "Compliance! We have heard and we obey q ".
And ward off [the punishment of] God r; for God is All-Knowing about the secrets of [your hearts which are in] your breasts. s }
.................................................. ............................
o For that He guided you to the Islam, and you converted and believed.
p on the night of the Aqaba, in the Radhwan pledge of allegiance,
and at the pledge of allegiance to the messenger: because those who converted gave him the pledge of allegiance to compliance in the time of difficulty and ease
:
q Concerning what you bid and forbid us.
r Concerning the breaking of the covenant and forgetting about the bounties.
s Nothing of your secrets is hidden from Him, neither is anything of your overt things unknown to Him.


While the other aya to which you objected is concerning another subject:
{Quran 2: 27
[Then God started to describe the evil-doers, and He said:]
27. Those who break God's covenant f after ratifying it,
and sever that [kinship] which God ordered to be joined,
and make mischief in the earth [by sedition, road robbery and barring those who believe in Mohammed]:
Such are the losers [who lost themselves and their families for that they exchanged prosperity for hell .]
}
.................................................. .............................
f with which they [Jews] covenanted the past God's prophets: that they should not associate anything with Him, neither should they slay the innocent man whose killing God forbids, nor should they commit adultery; but they broke their covenant with God.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflicts/..._in_the_Quran_

Last edited by roar; 09-19-2015 at 03:11 PM..
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Old 09-19-2015, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,599,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Answer:
This is the interpretation of these two ayat, according to the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly

{Quran 5: 7. And remember the blessings of God on you o, and His covenant which [His messenger] ratified with you p, when you said [to the prophet]: "Compliance! We have heard and we obey q ".
And ward off [the punishment of] God r; for God is All-Knowing about the secrets of [your hearts which are in] your breasts. s }
.................................................. ............................
o For that He guided you to the Islam, and you converted and believed.
p on the night of the Aqaba, in the Radhwan pledge of allegiance,
and at the pledge of allegiance to the messenger: because those who converted gave him the pledge of allegiance to compliance in the time of difficulty and ease:
q Concerning what you bid and forbid us.
r Concerning the breaking of the covenant and forgetting about the bounties.
s Nothing of your secrets is hidden from Him, neither is anything of your overt things unknown to Him.
Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is seriously WRONG and blasphemous in his interpretation of 5:7 in stating God's covenant is ratified with the messenger [His messenger]. In another post I highlighted it is not Muhammad duty to 'guide' Muslims and now Al-Hilly is translating Muhammad as ratifying God's covenant with Muslims.
In principle, the Muslim's covenant with Allah is a direct matter between Allah and the Muslim. Muhammad is merely to convey the message.
If there is any story [note 'story' which is not necessary truths] relating to the pledging of allegiance to Muhammad, this is not relevant to the Quran as a matter of principle.

Here are the various reputable translations of 5:7 and they did not include [His messenger];
5:7 [Asad] And [always] remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you, and the solemn pledge by which He bound you to Himself when you said, "We have heard, and we pay heed." Hence, remain conscious of God: verily, God has full knowledge of what is in the hearts [of men].

5:7 [Pickthall] Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

5:7 [Shakir] And remember the favor of Allah on you and His covenant with which He bound you firmly, when you said: We have heard and we obey, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah knows what is in the breasts.

5:7 [Ali] And call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, and His covenant, which He ratified with you, when ye said: "We hear and we obey": And fear Allah, for Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts.
I have read 49 translations and they all translated the covenant is with Allah and there is no intervention of ratification with Muhammad.

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly has committed a very serious and grave sin by changing the words of Allah and communicating to wrong message to Muslims.

Note I criticize another of his interpretations in the other posts re Adam and Eve.

I suggest you give up referring to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, otherwise you should cross check all his translations with another 10++ translations to ensure his translations and commentaries are correct.


While the other aya to which you objected is concerning another subject:
{Quran 2: 27
[Then God started to describe the evil-doers, and He said:]
27. Those who break God's covenant f after ratifying it,
and sever that [kinship] which God ordered to be joined,
and make mischief in the earth [by sedition, road robbery and barring those who believe in Mohammed]:
Such are the losers [who lost themselves and their families for that they exchanged prosperity for hell .]}
.................................................. .............................
f with which they [Jews] covenanted the past God's prophets: that they should not associate anything with Him, neither should they slay the innocent man whose killing God forbids, nor should they commit adultery; but they broke their covenant with God.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.
The Disagreement of the[/quote]

My emphasis on 5:7 and 2:27 is on the "covenant."
These two verses imply there exist a covenant between Allah and the individual Muslim [current and of old].
A 'covenant' in a holy text from God is a spiritual contract/agreement with God.
A contract always has terms and conditions between the contracting parties.
In the case of Islam, the terms and conditions are in the Quran.
Do you agree or disagree with this?

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly committed such a serious error with 5:7 and I have highlighted his various dubious interpretations, as such his credibility is questionable.
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Old 09-20-2015, 04:17 PM
 
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When I stated that it is the interpretation of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, this is to be truthful and honest; that the interpretation is his interpretation and not mine, although I believe in his interpretation of the Quran.
So the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible is not wrong; it is you who are wrong and flagrantly wrong.

And you said: I stated that Mohammed is not a guide of Muslims; so what you state is that you rejoice with your EEK!
Prophet Mohammed is the guide to whomever is guided and who receive the guidance; but you don't want to understand other than your fallacies only.

{13: 7. You [Mohammed] are only a warner,
and for every [erring] people [did We send] their guide
c.}
.................................................. ..................................
c To guide them to the way of the truth. And as such did We send you, Mohammed, as a warner and guide.
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Old 09-20-2015, 04:36 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In another post I highlighted it is not Muhammad duty to 'guide' Muslims and now Al-Hilly is translating Muhammad as ratifying God's covenant with Muslims.
In principle, the Muslim's covenant with Allah is a direct matter between Allah and the Muslim. Muhammad is merely to convey the message.
If there is any story [note 'story' which is not necessary truths] relating to the pledging of allegiance to Muhammad, this is not relevant to the Quran as a matter of principle.
You cannot deny that God said in the Quran 48: 10, which means:
{ 10. Surely, those who swears allegiance c to you [Mohammed], swear allegiance only to God [because it is He Who has sent you.] d
The [surplus-] hand of God e is above their [surplus-] hands f.
So whosoever [afterwards] breaks his oath, breaks it only to his soul's hurt g; while whosoever keeps his covenant with God h, on him will He bestow immense reward [in the Next Life.]}
.................................................. ....................
c To embrace the Islam religion, and to help you against your enemies and to comply with your commands.
d It was the Ridhwan [or good pleasure] ‘swearing of allegiance’ at Hudaybiah.
e By guiding them.
f By helping you.
The ‘hand’ here implies the grace, surplus and favor.
The meaning: The favor of God on them by guiding them to the Islam religion, is greater than their help for you.
g Because he will lose in his Next Life.
h By helping you and complying with your commands.

The interpretation is by the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly has committed a very serious and grave sin by changing the words of Allah and communicating to wrong message to Muslims.
Of course, it is you who are honest with God's words in the Quran, this is certainly not correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I criticize another of his interpretations in the other posts re Adam and Eve.
Sure, you criticize

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I suggest you give up referring to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, otherwise you should cross check all his translations with another 10++ translations to ensure his translations and commentaries are correct.
Your suggestion is rejected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My emphasis on 5:7 and 2:27 is on the "covenant."
These two verses imply there exist a covenant between Allah and the individual Muslim [current and of old].
A 'covenant' in a holy text from God is a spiritual contract/agreement with God.
A contract always has terms and conditions between the contracting parties.
In the case of Islam, the terms and conditions are in the Quran.
Do you agree or disagree with this?
I don't agree with all your words of falsehood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly committed such a serious error with 5:7 and I have highlighted his various dubious interpretations, as such his credibility is questionable.
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Old 09-20-2015, 04:50 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,601 times
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And here is the other aya of the covenant of allegiance, which means:
{Quran 48: 18 God has been well-pleased with the believers when they were swearing fealty to you [Mohammed] under the tree a, and He knew what [sincerity and fulfillment of their pledge] was in their hearts, so He sent down the 'tranquility and quieting' b upon them, and rewarded them with a victory that will come soon c .}
.................................................. ............................
a It implies: the ‘pledge of allegiance of Hudaybiah’; also called, according to this aya, the ‘pledge of allegiance of the good pleasure’.
The good pleauser of God about them is the best reputation for them in the life of the World, as will Paradise be for them in the Next Life.
b Or the ‘reassurance’.
c Which is the conquest of Khaibar, after their return to Medina.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, may God's mercy be on his soul.
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Old 09-20-2015, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,599,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
And here is the other aya of the covenant of allegiance, which means:
{Quran 48: 18 God has been well-pleased with the believers when they were swearing fealty to you [Mohammed] under the tree a, and He knew what [sincerity and fulfillment of their pledge] was in their hearts, so He sent down the 'tranquility and quieting' b upon them, and rewarded them with a victory that will come soon c .}
.................................................. ............................
a It implies: the ‘pledge of allegiance of Hudaybiah’; also called, according to this aya, the ‘pledge of allegiance of the good pleasure’.
The good pleauser of God about them is the best reputation for them in the life of the World, as will Paradise be for them in the Next Life.
b Or the ‘reassurance’.
c Which is the conquest of Khaibar, after their return to Medina.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, may God's mercy be on his soul.
Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is reading too much into this. Note [mine]
48:18. Allah was well pleased with the believers [Muslims] when they swore allegiance [fealty, fidelity, loyalty] unto thee [Muhammad] beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their [Muslims] hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance [tranquility -sakinat] on them [Muslims], and hath rewarded them [Muslims] with a near victory;
In this case the Muslims swore allegiance to Muhammad as a leader in a state of war. This is a very common thing where soldiers swear allegiance to their country and/or leaders. This is necessary to obtain the assurance they will not disobey commands, renegade, flee, turn back, or be traitors.

This pledge of allegiance has nothing to do directly with covenant a Muslim entered into with God in 5:7 where Muhammad has no part in it. Muhammad is just a conveyor, deliverer of the message.

Here is an analogy;

1. As a citizen of a country, one enter into a covenant [implied] with the country via the constitution. Similarly as a Muslim, one enter into covenant with God via the Quran. This is why 5:7 is applicable

2. As a citizen and if one is a soldier, one swore allegiance to the leader and the country. As a Muslim and when one is in war, one swear allegiance to the leader. Muhammad happened to the then present leader as narrated in the Quran. This is where 48:18 is applicable. This is the same as the jihadists of ISIS swearing allegiance to their present leader Abu Bakar al-Baghdadi.

Reflect again.
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