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A Muslim is by one definition a believer who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah of Islam.
5:7. Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you [Muslims] when ye said: We hear and we obey; and keep your duty to Allah. Allah knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).
The terms of the whole Spiritual Contract [Covenant] are stipulated solely in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and inspired by God and no where else.
Accordingly as covenanted, Muslim must adhered to whatever terms are in the Quran.
Do you agree the Quran contain the Spiritual Contract [Covenant] between Allah and the Muslim?
2:27. Those [who became apostates] who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it and sever [cut, sever] that [contractual bond] which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those [infidels -apostates] are they who are the losers.
The above verse implied the existence of a covenant as ratified [agreed upon] and establishment of a contractual bond between Allah and Muslim[s] that was subsequently broken.
This contractual bond is represented by the terms and conditions offered by Allah and accepted by any Muslim.
The terms and conditions of the spiritual contract [covenant] can appear no where else other than as stipulated in the Quran amongst other knowledge from God.
I noted the majority of Muslims do not understand they have entered into a spiritual contract [covenant] with Allah with conditions stipulated no where else other than in the present Quran.
As such they behave willy-nilly and simply what they thought or as advised what Allah is expecting of them without knowing exactly what their duty and obligations are in the spiritual contract.
A Muslim is by one definition a believer who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah of Islam.
5:7. Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you [Muslims] when ye said: We hear and we obey; and keep your duty to Allah. Allah knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).
A Muslim by definition is a person who performs the act of Islam. Islam is the action of submitting to Allaah(swt) There are more than one way this has been done and can be done.
There have been, are and will be Muslims that have never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
The terms of the whole Spiritual Contract [Covenant] are stipulated solely in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and inspired by God and no where else.
Wrong, as there are conditions under which a person who never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an can be Muslims. Just one example all people are born Muslim and most drift away from Islam and accpt other Religions or no Religions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Accordingly as covenanted, Muslim must adhered to whatever terms are in the Quran.
Wrong a Muslim must submit to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability to be Muslim and that includes people who never had the opportunity to learn of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Do you agree the Quran contain the Spiritual Contract [Covenant] between Allah and the Muslim?
Views?
While the Qur'an contains the reasons for performing Islam, there are many sources on how a person can perform Islam to the best of their ability. Some examples of Muslims that have never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an
Children from birth until the age they make free will decision not to perfom Islam.
All Muslims that lived before the birth of Muhaannad(saws)
People that in their heart have the desire to serve God(swt) to the best of their ability but do not have access to learn of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an
The best example of this is Muhammad(saws) Himself, he was Muslim before the Qur'an was revealed to him and even before he had the revelations that he was a Prophet(pbuh)
A Muslim by definition is a person who performs the act of Islam. Islam is the action of submitting to Allaah(swt) There are more than one way this has been done and can be done.
There have been, are and will be Muslims that have never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an.
Wrong, as there are conditions under which a person who never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an can be Muslims. Just one example all people are born Muslim and most drift away from Islam and accpt other Religions or no Religions.
Wrong a Muslim must submit to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability to be Muslim and that includes people who never had the opportunity to learn of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an
While the Qur'an contains the reasons for performing Islam, there are many sources on how a person can perform Islam to the best of their ability. Some examples of Muslims that have never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an
Children from birth until the age they make free will decision not to perfom Islam.
All Muslims that lived before the birth of Muhaannad(saws)
People that in their heart have the desire to serve God(swt) to the best of their ability but do not have access to learn of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an
The best example of this is Muhammad(saws) Himself, he was Muslim before the Qur'an was revealed to him and even before he had the revelations that he was a Prophet(pbuh)
As I had explained this post, http://www.city-data.com/forum/41181933-post10.html
all your above propositions are ridiculous without proper alignment with what is stated in the Quran which is the words of God.
I can understand why... it is because your impulses of the 'inoculation theory' has kicked in.
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The best example of this is Muhammad(saws) Himself, he was Muslim before the Qur'an was revealed to him and even before he had the revelations that he was a Prophet(pbuh)
You are deviating & lying from what is told by Allah. This is what Muhammad was accusing the Jews and Christians were doing to their original message. Note the relevant verse [mine]
39:12. And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those [Muslims] who surrender (unto Him).
Before Gabriel appeared to Muhammad, he [Muhammad] could not have been a Muslim as per the Quran.
Therefore it is obvious Muhammad became a Muslim after he surrendered upon the command of Allah per ver 39:12.
There are other corresponding verses to the effect of the above.
If Muhammad was inherently a Muslim, there would have been no need for verse 39:12 and others to that effect.
If you agree to the stories of Muhammad, he was scare like hell when he heard from Gabriel the first time. How could be so frightened if he is and know he is a Muslim.
A Muslim is one that is tied to the Quran 100%.
The Quran provide for degrees of being a Muslim, i.e. say, from 1-Low to 100-High.
Here are 2 amongst many others; [mine]
3:163. There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do. 8:4. Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.
Not ALL babies are Muslims. However by default those babies born to Muslims parents are regarded as 'babies of Muslim parent' and they progress to be truer Muslims as they comply with the dictates in the Quran.
In any case no person, babies or otherwise can be a Muslim-proper until they at least surrender to Allah with conscious intent.
It is up to Allah to deal with those who do not qualify as 'Muslim-proper' and they are judged on Judgment Day in accordance to their circumstances.
Suggest you think hard of what it really meant to be a Muslim-proper per se.
The only authentic scriptures that I admit were the OT. And if it shall be strictly speaking: the Hebreics. And perhaps some would be more strict: Torah(the first five books of the Bible).
I see the Quran as a book of poems. But don't get me wrong, I adore the Quran most. And why is it that I prefer the poems over the Bible? It is that my mind goes with with the fore lines of the book: This is a translation, and the meanings belong to GOD and GOD only.
Muslims are sent to heaven in miscarriages?
How unlucky for the pubescent, who accidentally "break their contract with Allah" that they don't even remember making.
As I had explained this post, http://www.city-data.com/forum/41181933-post10.html
all your above propositions are ridiculous without proper alignment with what is stated in the Quran which is the words of God.
I can understand why... it is because your impulses of the 'inoculation theory' has kicked in.
You are deviating & lying from what is told by Allah. This is what Muhammad was accusing the Jews and Christians were doing to their original message. Note the relevant verse [mine]
39:12. And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those [Muslims] who surrender (unto Him).
Before Gabriel appeared to Muhammad, he [Muhammad] could not have been a Muslim as per the Quran.
Therefore it is obvious Muhammad became a Muslim after he surrendered upon the command of Allah per ver 39:12.
There are other corresponding verses to the effect of the above.
If Muhammad was inherently a Muslim, there would have been no need for verse 39:12 and others to that effect.
If you agree to the stories of Muhammad, he was scare like hell when he heard from Gabriel the first time. How could be so frightened if he is and know he is a Muslim.
A Muslim is one that is tied to the Quran 100%.
The Quran provide for degrees of being a Muslim, i.e. say, from 1-Low to 100-High.
Here are 2 amongst many others; [mine]
3:163. There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do. 8:4. Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.
Not ALL babies are Muslims. However by default those babies born to Muslims parents are regarded as 'babies of Muslim parent' and they progress to be truer Muslims as they comply with the dictates in the Quran.
In any case no person, babies or otherwise can be a Muslim-proper until they at least surrender to Allah with conscious intent.
It is up to Allah to deal with those who do not qualify as 'Muslim-proper' and they are judged on Judgment Day in accordance to their circumstances.
Suggest you think hard of what it really meant to be a Muslim-proper per se.
In 39"12 the word being translated to First is akoona أَكُونَ While First is a good translation, it has no reference to time. First in regards to time such as first to exist is the word awwal
Akoona is better thought of as being best, epitome, tops, excelled, foremost etc. it is virtually identical to the Spanish concept of "El Primero" Which is what is used in the Spanish Translations
This is a case where Assad gives the better interpretation
and I am bidden to be foremost among those who surrender themselves unto God.” - 39:12 (Asad)
"And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam." - 39:12 (Y. Ali)
And I am commanded to be the first of those who surrender (unto Him). - 39:12 (Picktall)
He recibido la orden de ser el primero en someterse a Él". - 39:12 (Spanish)
The Qur'an also mentions Muslims long before Muhammad(saws) Two examples being Abraham(pbuh) and Jesus(a.s.)
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. S. 3:52 Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim (musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists. S. 3:67
It should be evident that 39:12 is not referring to a chronological first Which would be the Arabic awwal أولا
In 39"12 the word being translated to First is akoona أَكُونَ While First is a good translation, it has no reference to time. First in regards to time such as first to exist is the word awwal
Akoona is better thought of as being best, epitome, tops, excelled, foremost etc. it is virtually identical to the Spanish concept of "El Primero" Which is what is used in the Spanish Translations
This is a case where Assad gives the better interpretation
and I am bidden to be foremost among those who surrender themselves unto God.” - 39:12 (Asad)
"And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam." - 39:12 (Y. Ali)
And I am commanded to be the first of those who surrender (unto Him). - 39:12 (Picktall)
He recibido la orden de ser el primero en someterse a Él". - 39:12 (Spanish)
The various translators think akoona أَكُونَ is 'first' in the sense of time and I explained that above.
Before Gabriel appeared, Muhammad was not a Muslim.
Muhammad is the first Muslim as qualified with Allah, Gabriel, and the revealed Quran to himself.
Quote:
The Qur'an also mentions Muslims long before Muhammad(saws) Two examples being Abraham(pbuh) and Jesus(a.s.)
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. S. 3:52
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim (musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists. S. 3:67
I know of the above claims.
As I mentioned that is ONLY what the Quran claimed BUT the original Abraham, Jesus, and others [Jews, Christian, Sabeans] would not acknowledge they are 'Muslim-proper.'
This is like the fruit analogy I had given earlier.
No matter how serious the Quran claimed Abraham & Jesus to be Muslims they cannot be rightly 'Muslim-proper.'
To claim Jesus is Muslims is very bad logic on the part of the Quran.
The Jesus of the Bible as followed by 2+ billion Christian will never acknowledge their 'Jesus' is a Muslim.
So we have two contradictory claims, i.e.
1. There are 2 billion Christians who DO NOT claim Jesus is a Muslim.
2. There are 1.5 billion Muslims who claim Isa is a Muslim.
There are two claim of truths.
So who is right and who is wrong?
What give you the absolute right that you as a Muslim is right?
Therefore the best you can claim is as follows;
We 1.5+ billion Muslims claims Isa [Jesus] is a Muslim but subjected to dispute by 2+ billion Christians who had a earlier claim Jesus was a Christian and was not a Muslim.
To say otherwise without the above qualification is falsehood in reality.
Regardless of the above,
The proper definition of what is a Muslim is;
Based on the above Jesus cannot be a 'Muslim' because he has nothing to do with Muhammad who came later.
Quote:
It should be evident that 39:12 is not referring to a chronological first Which would be the Arabic awwal أولا
I presume you are very familiar with semantics and context.
The use of the term akoona أَكُونَ in the context of verse 39:12 and in the context of the Quran & Islam, and within the whole of reality, denote the chronological sense.
Otherwise the Quran could have use a word which is more related to best, epitome, tops, excelled which can be easily and readily available.
"Innoculation Theory" at play?
Last edited by Continuum; 09-13-2015 at 12:22 AM..
In 39"12 the word being translated to First is akoona أَكُونَ While First is a good translation, it has no reference to time. First in regards to time such as first to exist is the word awwal
Akoona is better thought of as being best, epitome, tops, excelled, foremost etc. it is virtually identical to the Spanish concept of "El Primero" Which is what is used in the Spanish Translations
This is a case where Assad gives the better interpretation
and I am bidden to be foremost among those who surrender themselves unto God.” - 39:12 (Asad)
"And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam." - 39:12 (Y. Ali)
And I am commanded to be the first of those who surrender (unto Him). - 39:12 (Picktall)
He recibido la orden de ser el primero en someterse a Él". - 39:12 (Spanish)
The Qur'an also mentions Muslims long before Muhammad(saws) Two examples being Abraham(pbuh) and Jesus(a.s.)
....
What you are actually saying here is that "first" is a horrible translation and a descent translation to English "must" be the premier ("foremost" would get the same meaning based on a different root) and a descent translation to Latin American Spanish would be El Primario not "El primero" which would mean "first in the order" never "first in status"... Thankfully I know both languages fluently unlike the Muslims that must have been "accidentally" unhelped by Allah to translate his commanded bibliolatry and interpretation-worship incorrectly. This whole conundrum would ILLUMINATE the fact that Classical Arabic is such an Obtuse and Vague language of inferior communicative value.
Furthermore, the idea that a Muslim does not need to believe the Quran nor Muhammad contradicts the major tenant of what the majority of self-labeled "Muslims" follow and expect after "puberty". You are in the tiniest denomination among the Mohammedans of Islam. Allah must be the allotter of Confusion, to let such things occur.
But at the time that the Politicians (Caliphate) were compiling and publishing a written and "authenticated" version of the Quran, it was already established that Muhammad had claimed that Jesus and Moses and others had been true Submitters (i.e. Muslims... so the Christians and Jews making trouble should submit to the Caliphate if they wanted to be like the "real" Jesus or Moses) of Allah's Righteous Heavenly Fascism (A model that the Caliphate was eagerly set to follow against those pesky plural oligarchies of the polytheists).
So still, the main idea among self-labeled Muslims is that Muhammad was the FIRST of the submitters to the NEW HEAVENLY LAW (or first submitter of the "correct dictation of the OLD HEAVENLY LAW" that Allah accidentally allowed to change "but no longer," one supposes)... a universal law that all (even Christians and Jews, and even Abraham if he were alive and not bisecting baby animals for his crazed fertility pacts) are NOW commanded and "helped" to follow. Abrahamists of the book and perhaps other "book" monotheists (such as most Zoroastrians) are to be respected by true Muslims if they aren't a threat to the business, but without accepting the new order (Quran and Muhammad) they wouldn't be completely muslim, although they might still get to heaven, it's probably not such great a heaven as those chummy with the partitioned business.
This whole thing would have been clear if the original script had been more precise with it's phrase choice. I guess venerating books is just another human mistake.
What you are actually saying here is that "first" is a horrible translation and a descent translation to English "must" be the premier ("foremost" would get the same meaning based on a different root) and a descent translation to Latin American Spanish would be El Primario not "El primero" which would mean "first in the order" never "first in status"... Thankfully I know both languages fluently unlike the Muslims that must have been "accidentally" unhelped by Allah to translate his commanded bibliolatry and interpretation-worship incorrectly. This whole conundrum would ILLUMINATE the fact that Classical Arabic is such an Obtuse and Vague language of inferior communicative value.
Furthermore, the idea that a Muslim does not need to believe the Quran nor Muhammad contradicts the major tenant of what the majority of self-labeled "Muslims" follow and expect after "puberty". You are in the tiniest denomination among the Mohammedans of Islam. Allah must be the allotter of Confusion, to let such things occur.
But at the time that the Politicians (Caliphate) were compiling and publishing a written and "authenticated" version of the Quran, it was already established that Muhammad had claimed that Jesus and Moses and others had been true Submitters (i.e. Muslims... so the Christians and Jews making trouble should submit to the Caliphate if they wanted to be like the "real" Jesus or Moses) of Allah's Righteous Heavenly Fascism (A model that the Caliphate was eagerly set to follow against those pesky plural oligarchies of the polytheists).
So still, the main idea among self-labeled Muslims is that Muhammad was the FIRST of the submitters to the NEW HEAVENLY LAW (or first submitter of the "correct dictation of the OLD HEAVENLY LAW" that Allah accidentally allowed to change "but no longer," one supposes)... a universal law that all (even Christians and Jews, and even Abraham if he were alive and not bisecting baby animals for his crazed fertility pacts) are NOW commanded and "helped" to follow. Abrahamists of the book and perhaps other "book" monotheists (such as most Zoroastrians) are to be respected by true Muslims if they aren't a threat to the business, but without accepting the new order (Quran and Muhammad) they wouldn't be completely muslim, although they might still get to heaven, it's probably not such great a heaven as those chummy with the partitioned business.
This whole thing would have been clear if the original script had been more precise with it's phrase choice. I guess venerating books is just another human mistake.
I consider my self to be quite mainstream Muslim. I am Sunni and follow the Hanafi Madhab. (The Hanafi Madhab does differ slightly by location as one of the sources is local practices and tradition) I have yet to come across any major differences with other Muslims I know. I have lived in the Mideast and North Africa and virtually all of my family is Muslim. My oldest Daughter is Shi'ite, the rest of us are Sunni, mostly Hanafi but most with some Sufi tendencies. My wife's Family is nearly 100% Muslim However her Grand Children are Ahmadyyah I did not accept Islam until I was 65 years old, however my Children accepted Islam at least 20 years before me and all my Grand Children and Great grand Children are Muslim
One point I have not made clear. I am not saying a Muslim is not obligated to follow the Qur'an. I am saying it is possible to be a Muslim with no knowledge of the Qur'an or of Muhammad(saws)
How a Muslims defines being a Muslims seems to differ from how a non-Muslim defines it. Possibly because non-Muslims do not want to acknowledge Jesus and Moses (PBUT) performed Islam.
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Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.
Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God-made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law, ie, become a Muslim.
Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony.
Islam dates back to the age of Adam and its message has been conveyed to man by God's prophets and messengers, including Abrahim, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.
Islam's message has been restored and enforced in the last stage of the religious evolution by God's last prophet and messenger, Muhammad.
The word Allah in the Arabic language means God, or more accurately, The One and Only Eternal God, Creator of the Universe, Lord of all lords, King of all kings, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. The word Allah to mean God is also used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians.
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