U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-08-2016, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are going off point again.
We are dealing with 1.5 billion Muslims who have in some form affirmed the shahaha directly or is a Muslim by default e.g. children of Muslim parents.

No ordinary non-theist will want to submit and affirm the shahada.

Now in this world there will always be some people who are deceptive, pretend and disguise themselves as something else. But how many atheists would pretend to be Muslims in the world right now. Probably a few for some reasons but what is 10 pretending Muslims to 1.5 billion Muslims.
Relative to this reality your point above is insignificant and not relevant to this topic at all.

Nevertheless you should have stated the following;
"atheist could profess to do that [shahada] a thousand times a day and it will never make him a genuine Muslim"
If you add "genuine" before Muslim as in the above, there is no issue with such a statement because it is true.

Therefore as long as someone assert that he has submitted and affirmed the shahada, s/he is technically by definition a Muslim. For social, political, etc., reasons, the onus is on others to prove otherwise.
That person can proceed to perform the 5 pillars of Islam [internally in his mind s/he is merely pretending] and even perform the haj, s/he is technically a Muslim as far as Muslims, humans and humanity are concerned.

Therefore my definition of who is a Muslim, i.e.
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
until it is proven otherwise.
The relativity of my Atheist example is to show that simply saying the Shahadah is not going to make anyone a Muslim.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-08-2016, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is very easy.
When a person expressed and affirmed the Shahada in front of the necessary witnesses which also implied s/he has submitted and entered into a covenant with Allah.

Note a covenant is a contract/agreement of a spiritual nature between God and the individual believer.

Thus if a person has done the above s/he a Muslim legally or by social conventions, i.e. it is legally recognized by the authorities, relatives and friends.


You still have not got my point.

It is not your concern to know if they have with 100% absolute certainty, that's Allah responsibility.

Legally* and conventionally, unless there are evidences to prove otherwise, if a person has affirmed the shahada in front of witnesses, it is none of your [mine and others] business to doubt whether s/he is a genuine Muslims or not. That is Allah's responsibility and Allah being all-knowing knows what to do.
*Where Islamic Laws are in effect.

Here is one analogy:
If a pretender sign a marriage contract with another,
it is legally recognized by the authorities, relatives and friends.
But who will ever know [other than the pretender] that it is a genuine marriage without any deception.
There are many marriage contracts [legally recognized] but the intent is out of deception, e.g. one may marry a rich partner for the money. There are many cases where the deceiver enter in a legal marriage but soon poison the other to get the money or other interests.
Therefore you and any one will never know if a marriage is certainly genuine.
Do you agree with this?

The above analogy is applicable to a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
No one will know the true intention in the person's mind whether there is a true intention or there is a pretention.

But as I had stated it is nobody's business, you, me or anyone to establish 100% certainty whether a person is truly a Muslim or not, from Allah's perspective. It is only Allah who will decide who is a true Muslim anytime and on J-DAY to decide one's fate to Paradise.

The only way humans should necessary judge whether a person is a Muslim who had entered into a covenant is from the following legal or conventional means;

1. Affirmation of the Shahada in front of witnesses which implied submission.
2. Children born of Muslim parents.

Who is a Muslim?
Therefore if a person comply and conform with 1 & 2, then s/he is a Muslim by such legal and conventional procedures until proven otherwise.

As for who is a Muslim in the eyes of Allah, that is nobody's business other than Allah's.
Except there ar no witnesses required for our Shahada to be valid. Many of us say te Shahadah for the first time with only Allaah(swt) as our witness.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2016, 06:38 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
an atheist could profess to do that a thousand times a day and it will never make him a Muslim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nevertheless you should have stated the following;
"atheist could profess to do that [shahada] a thousand times a day and it will never make him a genuine Muslim"
What is difference between "a Muslim" and "a genuine Muslim"? Aren't you just messing about here in ignorance about "Muslim"?

Quote:
If you add "genuine" before Muslim as in the above, there is no issue with such a statement because it is true.
Then you admit that Shahada does not make anyone genuine Muslim. It is not Shahada but genuine believing and genuine submitting together make someone a Muslim.

Quote:
Therefore as long as someone assert that he has submitted and affirmed the shahada, s/he is technically by definition a Muslim.
You are now contradicting your own view here.

An atheist can assert that he has submitted and affirmed Shahada, s/he is technically by definition not a Muslim because s/he has not believed Allah and not submitted to Allah but merely pretended to affirm Shahada by saying it with hypocritical mouth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2016, 06:41 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,651,915 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
I'd say no god but Allah
Will you accept this faith


The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad,
he who amongst the community of jews or Christians hears about me,
but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent
and dies in this state (of disbelief),
he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2016, 06:50 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,651,915 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
simply saying the Shahadah is not going to make anyone a Muslim.


Usama ibn Zayd killed an [enemy] idolater in battle after the latter had said: La ilaha illa Allah (" no god but Allah")

When news of this reached The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) he condemned Usama in the strongest terms and he said to him:

"How can you kill him after he said La ilaha illa Allah (" no god but Allah")

He replied: "But he said it with the sword hanging over his head-"

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said again:

"How can you kill him after he said La ilaha illa Allah (" no god but Allah")

He replied: "O Messenger of Allah, he said it in dissimulation (taqiyyatan)."

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:
"Did you split his heart open (to see)?" , 'What will you do with La ilaha illa Allah (" no god but Allah") when it comes on the Day of Rising?

and he did not cease to reprove him until Usama wished that he had not entered Islam until after he had killed that man so that he might have been forgiven all his past sins through belief
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2016, 09:25 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad,
he who amongst the community of jews or Christians hears about me,
but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent
and dies in this state (of disbelief),
he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
This is the involvement with the Creator
David says in one of the Psalms
As deer longs to water sources, so pants my soul for you, O God
Which is correct
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2016, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
After reading the Qur'an translations fast 50+ times, did you understand the terms of the "covenant" for both parties in the covenant?
I don't think you understand what is meant by covenant and its universal meaning.

Note this [posted in another thread]

Quote:
Allah stated Allah created humans and jinns to serve Allah.
This I acknowledge, thus there is already a pre-existing relationship between Allah and humans in that specific term that Allah created humans and made certain unilateral threats and warning of Hell.

However, [you also acknowledge above] Allah made certain promises [offers] to humans.
These promises and commitments of Allah will only be fulfilled by Allah IF the person accept Allah's offers and fulfil the terms and conditions of the covenant.
Offer and acceptance is the basic elements of a contract and in the case of Allah, it is called a covenant.
Note the element of 'covenant' is expressed in the Quran many times.

Note I am very familiar with the Principles of the Law of Contract and this is universal even within the spiritual where the equivalent of a contract is a covenant.
Therefore the issue here is not the English word 'covenant' but we must discuss the intended universal referent by the Principles of the Law of Contract regardless the language used, legal or otherwise, etc..

Read this: in [] = mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Offer and acceptance are [fundamental] elements required for the formation of a legally binding contract: the expression of an offer to contract on certain terms by one person (the "offeror") to another person (the "offeree"), and an indication by the offeree of its acceptance of those terms.
The other elements traditionally required for a legally binding contract are (i) consideration and (ii) an intention to be legally bound.
In this case, Allah made the "offer" [promises] and it is up to the person to "accept" and then become a believer and is thus obliged to comply with the terms and conditions of the covenant [contract].

Your problem is you tend to conflate significant elements and thus create confusions and then made conclusions out of confusions, thus giving confusing conclusions.
I am a very analytical person and I always try to analyze the issue appropriately and thus arrive at sound and justifiable objective conclusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
How does one break the covenant and become a loser from being a Muslim?
One breaks the covenant by declaring one do not want to be a party to the covenant, i.e. declaring oneself to be an apostate. The other is committing an unpardonable sin.

Quote:
Therefore, ratifying the covenant or breaking the covenant are two different actions that makes one a Muslim or a non-muslim but what is the covenant?
Note my explanation above.
Ratifying the covenant is the declaration and affirmation of the Shahada.
Breaking the covenant - note my point above.
In some sense depending on the context, it may refer to a partial non-conformance of the covenant

Quote:
A Muslim is someone who "believes" in Allah and His messages, and "obeys" the commands from Allah in His messages.
That is between Allah and the believer because all knowing Allah knows what is in the breast of humans.

But for humans, we need to be objective in judging who is a Muslim, i.e. the initial criteria of being a Muslims is the declaration of the Shahada as confirmed the Quran itself.
Objectively [humans perspective, not Allah's] a person is a Muslim when that person declared and affirmed the Shahada until proven otherwise.

Quote:
"Muslim" is not a permanent label as it depends on obeying Allah's commands even after saying Shahada. To be precise, one is a Muslim during the action of obeying Allah and not a Muslim when disobeying Allah. This is why even a Muslim will be judged, on the day of judgment, on his deeds of obeying Allah or disobeying Allah.
The Shahada is the only possible objective determination [for humans only] of whether a person is fundamentally, at the least a Muslim.
Subsequent compliance with the terms and conditions of the covenant will increase the degree of one's Muslimness, i.e. performing the 5 pillars of Islam, 6 pillars of eeman, pillars of ihsaan, and others.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-09-2016 at 12:31 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2016, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Except there are no witnesses required for our Shahada to be valid. Many of us say te Shahadah for the first time with only Allaah(swt) as our witness.
Again you forget the two necessary perspectives; i.e.
1. In the 'eyes' of Allah
2. In the 'eyes' of humans.
If it is between the Muslim and Allah, there is no need for witnesses as the all-knowing Allah knows what is in the breasts of humans. This is obvious. There is no need for an all powerful Allah to be one's witness at all.

But for social, legal, political and conventional purpose it would definitely be better there are witnesses or some sort of certification by some authority to certify one is a basically a Muslim until proven otherwise.

I don't see any issue in the above.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-09-2016, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What is difference between "a Muslim" and "a genuine Muslim"? Aren't you just messing about here in ignorance about "Muslim"?
Your view is very pathetic in this case which really insults your own intelligence.

I was comparing a genuine sincere Muslim versus one who pretends to be a Muslim.
It is common knowledge there are pretenders in many situations. I have given examples, a person can pretend to be a husband or wife by signing a legal marriage contract for other purposes [con job] than as sincere husband and wife.

Thus a person can pretend [no true intention and true feeling of submission] to a Muslim by declaring the Shahada or even perform the 5 pillars of Islam.

Yours is the ignorant view here.
Quote:
Then you admit that Shahada does not make anyone genuine Muslim. It is not Shahada but genuine believing and genuine submitting together make someone a Muslim.
I stated the declaration and affirmation of the Shahada if one is pretending do not make one a "genuine" Muslim.

It is only Allah who will know who is a genuine Muslim because an all knowing Allah knows what is in the minds of humans.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for any humans to know who a 100% genuine Muslim.
Since such a task is IMPOSSIBLE for humans, it is a waste of time for humans to be concern over this point.

The most humans can do is to assess who is a Muslim using objective approaches, i.e. the Shahada [as required in the Quran] and other objective assessments not based on personal feelings and opinions.

Quote:
You are now contradicting your own view here.

An atheist can assert that he has submitted and affirmed Shahada, s/he is technically by definition not a Muslim because s/he has not believed Allah and not submitted to Allah but merely pretended to affirm Shahada by saying it with hypocritical mouth.
As usual your comprehension is very lacking. Your views in this case is the usual problem of conflating different elements and senses thus giving confusing conclusions.

I stated the person is technically by definition a Muslim in the eyes of human being BUT not a genuine Muslim in the eyes of Allah.
An atheist can assert he has submitted and affirmed the Shahada, and even perform the 5 pillars of Islam and any Islamic government or group will recognize that atheist as a Muslim. There is no way any one [other than Allah] will know the truth of what is in his mind and his real belief, until he is discovered to be a pretender.

I am sure this [pretension] is what is happening in Syria where Christians or atheists has to pretend to be Muslim by conversion [affirming the Shahada and even performing the 5 pillars] to save their life till they can escape to exercise their original beliefs.

If I [a non-theist] is caught in Syria by ISIS or any other Islamic group and destined to be beheaded but given the alternative of converting to be a Muslim and be saved, I will definitely pretend to convert to be a Muslim. This is no issue as such a religions is illusory [god do not exists] in the first place and nothing wrong in playing with a bit of fantasy. When I get to safety I will stop doing what a Muslim is supposed to do. This is ABC.

Btw, is there are case from the many of your accusations [other than omissions and oversight] that I am contradicting myself, ignorant of the Quran, not understanding the Quran, ignorant of this or than turned out to be true?
Show me one case in our discussion where your accusations of me turned out to be objectively true.

As far as I am concern, I have proven you wrong in all your accusations. So I suggest you should not simply throw accusations at first glance until you have received any reply from me and you can prove you are right with your accusations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top