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Old 09-17-2015, 03:21 AM
 
569 posts, read 372,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"But God is talking about the burden of proof upon us and is telling us, you will not go to paradise until you prove that you deserve it."

This is what I don't get....here is this CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE and he gives us free will (but unless we know all probable outcomes of a decision, according to a Muslim poster here, we don't have free will) and if we don't 'choose' to act like and believe what he demands he'll torture us for all eternity. Who acts like this? Only a psychopath! That's not a rational choice! Threats of never ending torture and slaughter aren't an argument to follow an ideology.

This is one of so many things that makes Muslim terrorism so evil and irrational. Muslims, following the example of that nasty Muhammed, think that death threats make people want to follow an ideology. If I pointed a gun to the heads of Muslims and demanded that you all convert to Scientology, could you really do that? Of course not. All you do is foster hate and slaughter by doing that!

And all that hate from allah in the quran about never ending horrible torture for non-Muslims....if that isn't hate speech I don't know what is!

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

I mean seriously...look at the hate here. Is this really what you want to submit to? There are literally HUNDREDS of hate filled verses in the Quran. How could a supernatural entity that created THE UNIVERSE have so much hate for little old us? Why would this tiny speck of humanity foster so much rage and hate and desire for endless torture?
Concerning the hate laws in the Quran, those were the copy-pasting of the OT laws: the further explainations were supposedly shedding out by the lights of the account of Jesus, the prophet of Islam.

Jesus said, for a good tree they do thus; then what will they do to a dried tree.

So in the zeal of protecting the possible further heavenly newcomers, the people killed whatever smelling wrong. Or they just used the laws for their own purposes.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:50 AM
 
569 posts, read 372,589 times
Reputation: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point:
1. It is impossible for God to exist as real
2. Thus there was no real Quran from God.
3. Therefore the Quran can only be of humans.

I have no issue with anyone going into fiction for various and personal purpose but at least there should be no obvious contradictions and controversies in that work.
If God is presented as Omniscient [all knowing] then God should not be presented as 'not knowing' in this case, i.e. not knowing the future.

To make sense, it should be presented as 'God knows everything but he is not telling you the future'
The above makes more sense than saying God do not know your future acts yet as in 3:142.

Such carelessness as in 3:142 reinforce the fact that the Quran was authored by man and not by any supposed God.
Note there are many such contradiction and errors in the Quran to support my point that the Quran was authored by humans.
If you are familiar with the realities, you would find everybody has its own standards. Although we have the general laws to govern the societies, yet everybody is still walking its own ways. As long as a person does not go over the plume line too much, or be accused. Nobody is really caring in bothering each other.

However, the Holiness of the LORD would not suffer being offened. Although the etemology of the words changes from time to time. The meaning of being setting apart as holy does not change.

Hence, let me reason with you: Is GOD, whom is full of goodness, a servant or GOD to you?

It seems to me that everybody blames the shortcommings to GOD and makes Him a servent, then takes everything in life for granted. So could you see the logic here: a servant vs. GOD.
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Old 09-18-2015, 06:57 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"This is like accusing Joe-bloke then [1930s] of promoting hatred of Nazism and 'Germans' when he was warning everyone of the potential atrocities of the Nazis."

Yes, exactly. And warning based upon objective evidence, not whim!

In the Quran and hadiths there are so many hateful verses and references to Muhammed having sex with a child, raping women, letting his men mass rape women, owning and selling slaves, selling women, demanding murder and terrorism....this is all documented in Islam.

Even if some Muslims have found a way to rationalize these things, they should certainly understand that others (ex-Muslims/non-Muslims) are seeing these things written in Islam and cannot rationalize them. Yet, the rationalizing Muslims go after the non-rationalizing Muslims and call them haters and evil!!

You would think that rationalizing Muslims would understand that we are speaking out against the hate and torture and terrorism and rape and pedophilia and murder and slavery, etc, that is clearly documented in Islam (even though they rationalized it away). But they attack us and call us haters for being against hate and all the rest.
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Old 09-18-2015, 07:22 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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"Hence, let me reason with you: Is GOD, whom is full of goodness, a servant or GOD to you?"

Invalid question based on false assumptions. False assumptions: that there is a god and that this god is full of goodness.

Different people believe in different gods. Some are benign and some are evil. The god that Muhammed created is evil.

evil: harmful; injurious, characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.:

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

3:4 Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:44 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I find this verse contradictory as to how an Omniscient God Does Not Know yet those Muslim who really strive in the future. On omniscient God should know the past, present and future.
3:142. [Pickthall] Or deemed ye [Muslims] that ye would enter Paradise while yet Allah knoweth* not those of you [Muslims] who really strive, nor knoweth those (of you) who are steadfast?

3:142 [Asad] Do you think that you could enter paradise unless God takes cognizance of your having striven hard [in His cause], and takes cognizance of your having been patient in adversity?

3:142 [Shakir] Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.
3:142 [Ali] Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?
Views?

Answer: it means: God knows everything, but it is required to expose them practically, so that He will reward them and His reward will then be justified and with justice.
E.g. God knew Satan waxed proud and He should drive him out of Paradise, but if He tells him: Go out, Satan will say: Why God; I haven't done anything deserving such driving away?
So God made a trial of Satan who was together with the angels; God knew Satan became proud and arrogant; so He made such trial to expose Satan practically that he waxed proud: the trial was that they all should prostrate themselves to Adam; so all angels fell prostrate excepting Satan who out of his pride refused to prostrate himself and he insisted on his stand; so now he deserved the driving out of Paradise.

So God will let people know and these men will be exposed before people: are they true believers or not, so that He may reward them, and give them each according to his striving and to his belief.

Now, this is the interpretation of this great aya, according to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly:
((3: 142. [Do you, believers, think that you will be rewarded without any work], or do you suppose you will enter Paradise g without God knows which of you fight hard [in His cause] h, and [also] He knows which is steadfast [in fighting? i] ))
.................................................. .............................
g Without struggling in God's way, and without any difficulties.
h So that He will decree Paradise for them.
i Who do not run away, so He will decree for them Paradise to be admitted into it following their death.

Last edited by roar; 09-18-2015 at 08:53 AM..
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Old 09-18-2015, 01:37 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"Answer: it means: God knows everything, but it is required to expose them practically, so that He will reward them and His reward will then be justified and with justice."

That makes no sense. "yet Allah knoweth* not" doesn't mean
'allah knows'.
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Old 09-19-2015, 01:46 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,254 times
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God knows everything, but will He reward them unless they take action?
So the trial is to examine them and their true reality will then appear to people and even to themselves.
So they will be practically known.
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Old 09-19-2015, 06:07 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"God knows everything, but will He reward them unless they take action?
So the trial is to examine them and their true reality will then appear to people and even to themselves.
So they will be practically known."

That makes no sense.
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