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Old 09-16-2015, 04:41 AM
 
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So recently Sam Harris had a mutually unpleasant run in at a party with Maajid Nawaz.

But Sam Harris who is disproportionately into the faculty of discourse pursued him later for one.... and admits that the interaction.... which resulted in a co-authored book called "Islam and the Future of Tolerance".... benefited and changed him more than it did Maajid Nawaz.

They had a stage conversation too recently which has just been published on the Sam Harris website and the Quilliam Website and Maajid Nawaz represents the kind of Islam I would myself have little problem with. He is witty, intelligent, in touch with a common reality rather than his own reality like, for example, many politicians might be. It was a good conversation.

I particularly liked his opening speech which formed an attack on those who have a concept that "The only good Muslim is an angry Muslim". And he talks evenly about how those inside the community who do not address or name the problems in that community..... are just as harmful as those outside the Muslim community who use the problems in that community as a brush to paint all Muslims. I particularly liked his line that those in the community who do not confront this.... in what he called "the Voldemort effect"..... are "therefore not even giving those outside the community the proper lexicon to even HAVE this discussion".

He also makes a great argument about the loss of pluralism in Islam, using the translation of "alcohol" in the history of the religion as an example, that has essentially forced Islam into a position where secularism is their only real step forward.

And they go on to ask the question that most people outside Islam invariably ask... which is why grievances Muslims have are evidently more likely to be expressed through violence than in any other religion. And I think he manages to answer this honestly without engaging in any level of denial, but while still offering quite a depth of understanding on the issue. But Sam also rightly pulls him up then on the doctrinal differences between Islam and other religions which they should also not gloss over and ignore the influence of. Because beliefs actually do matter too.

It is a fascinating relationship Harris and Nawaz have it seems. They hold no punches with each other in their conversations.... both where they disagree and even in areas where they agree.... but they both also clearly hold in the highest of all esteems the very art of discourse itself above any other concern they have. And the moderator does also ask a good question of Sam about "Why are you even engaging in this conversation".

And this is an ideal I cherish heavily myself so I hold this video up as a testament to the very thing in life I espouse more than any other. THIS is how conversations between even starkly differing view points should be conducted. They are a credit to the species, whether you agree with anything or nothing they say at all.

Hope the linked video above is useful or enjoyable to at least one person here
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
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Thanks for posting that, I found it well worth the time.
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I am familiar with Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz (S&M) ideas prior to this.

The ideas presented by both of them are progressive but I believe does not deal with the critical root causes of the existing problem of Islamic evils and violence.

What I agree with Nawaz is he recognized Islam itself is a part of the problem and I have been presenting such ideas all the time, i.e.
1. 90% of Muslims as with other humans are generally 'Good' people.

2. It is only 10% of evil prone Muslims that are potentially evil and violent.

3. There is a big percentage of evil-laden verses in the holy texts [primary and secondary] of Islam as supported by its martial ethos.
The main source of Islamic evils and violence is due to the combination of [2] and [3] above when they manifest from SOME evil prone Muslims.

From what I heard in the video [I have not read the book] S&M proposed to defang [2] i.e. the fundamentalists from monopolizing the social and political narratives like what is happening at present. While the best of such efforts will mitigate and resolve some aspects of it, such strategies will only be fire-fighting strategies and do not get rid nor control the problem at the level of the root causes.

This is because;
a. factor [2] is inherent within humanity and cannot be removed at least for a long time [perhaps 10,000 years or more].
b. The Quran is immutable and cannot be changed as long as Islam exists.
c. In general it is not possible for the majority to accept Islam is part of the problem.

Therefore as long as [2] and [3] are not taken care of, the problem of Islamic evil and violence will always manifest when triggered by SOME evil prone Muslims.
Because Islamic evils comprised a very wide range. We may be able to resolve a problem like ISIS but there will still be other significant problems committed by SOME evil prone Muslims on other issues.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims and increasing fast. Even if 1% is evil prone we have a potential of 15 million evil prone Muslim. Even a few or up to a hundred++ can potentially exterminate the human race if these few can get access to cheap WMDs. WW-II was started by one Hitler and few dictators brainwashing a mass of vulnerable people. It can happen again.

In general it is not possible for the majority to accept Islam is part of the problem.
This is what is happening in this forum and generally elsewhere.
I understand Woodrow LI and other Muslim posters will never accept Islam itself has a share of the problem. [right?]

Therefore to tackle the problem of Islamic evils and violence, the approach must be comprehensive in controlling the factor [2] and [3].
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am familiar with Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz (S&M) ideas prior to this.

The ideas presented by both of them are progressive but I believe does not deal with the critical root causes of the existing problem of Islamic evils and violence.

What I agree with Nawaz is he recognized Islam itself is a part of the problem and I have been presenting such ideas all the time, i.e.
1. 90% of Muslims as with other humans are generally 'Good' people.

2. It is only 10% of evil prone Muslims that are potentially evil and violent.

3. There is a big percentage of evil-laden verses in the holy texts [primary and secondary] of Islam as supported by its martial ethos.
The main source of Islamic evils and violence is due to the combination of [2] and [3] above when they manifest from SOME evil prone Muslims.

From what I heard in the video [I have not read the book] S&M proposed to defang [2] i.e. the fundamentalists from monopolizing the social and political narratives like what is happening at present. While the best of such efforts will mitigate and resolve some aspects of it, such strategies will only be fire-fighting strategies and do not get rid nor control the problem at the level of the root causes.

This is because;
a. factor [2] is inherent within humanity and cannot be removed at least for a long time [perhaps 10,000 years or more].
b. The Quran is immutable and cannot be changed as long as Islam exists.
c. In general it is not possible for the majority to accept Islam is part of the problem.

Therefore as long as [2] and [3] are not taken care of, the problem of Islamic evil and violence will always manifest when triggered by SOME evil prone Muslims.
Because Islamic evils comprised a very wide range. We may be able to resolve a problem like ISIS but there will still be other significant problems committed by SOME evil prone Muslims on other issues.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims and increasing fast. Even if 1% is evil prone we have a potential of 15 million evil prone Muslim. Even a few or up to a hundred++ can potentially exterminate the human race if these few can get access to cheap WMDs. WW-II was started by one Hitler and few dictators brainwashing a mass of vulnerable people. It can happen again.

In general it is not possible for the majority to accept Islam is part of the problem.
This is what is happening in this forum and generally elsewhere.
I understand Woodrow LI and other Muslim posters will never accept Islam itself has a share of the problem. [right?]

Therefore to tackle the problem of Islamic evils and violence, the approach must be comprehensive in controlling the factor [2] and [3].


addressing this part

Quote:
I understand Woodrow LI and other Muslim posters will never accept Islam itself has a share of the problem. [right?]
I find the concept of blaming Islam to be bordering rediculous. That is like Blaiming Africa for Ebola.

Islam is nothing more and nothing less than submitting to Allaah(swt) Evil, good, violent etc comes from a person's own choices.

I will agree that a minimum percentage of Human beings have a predisposistion for violence. Actually I suspect it is much high than 10% as evidenced by the human trait of enjoying watching violent act even such quiet past times like watching Foot ball, Soccor, Wrestling, action movies, or engaging in adrenaline inducing behaviors like base diving, drag racing etc.

Violence is rampant, the US alone has over 14.000 murders per year and over 1 million violent crimes.

The US population is almost exactly 1/5 the worlds Muslim Population and the amount of violence is actually at a higher per capita rate than what is found for the world's Islamic population. To match the US rate the Muslim population would have to be killing(Murdering ) 70,000 people annually, Last year the number was 37,000 or roughly 1/2 the rate by Americans. But to be fair it should be noted that nearly all of those deaths were in a very small region Yemen, Iraq and Syria. Which gives them very high visibility.

There is no indication that Islam results in a higher rate of violence than what is found in the non-Muslim population. Contrarily, the violence rate per capita in Islamic nations is lower than what is found in non-Muslim populations and would be even much lower if the unrest in the Mideast were ended.
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:42 PM
 
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"Islam is nothing more and nothing less than submitting to Allaah"

The problem is that there IS no allah. Muhammed made up this god and proclaimed himself as the prophet. It's a huge scam. To top it off, Muhammed did every evil act in the book and incited others to do the same.

The Quran (written by Muhammed and/or other men) incites violence and hate.

"There is no indication that Islam results in a higher rate of violence than what is found in the non-Muslim population."

You tried this before and failed. Let's try it again!

I'll list DEADLY violence done in the name of Islam Sept 7 thru Sept 13, then you list DEADLY violence done in the name of Christianity over the same time period!

I'll go first: (Sept 7 thru Sept 13)

2015.09.13 Egypt Western Desert 1 0 An Egyptian is beheaded and crucified by Muslims.
2015.09.13 Iraq Ghazlani 32 0 Thirty-two captives are euthanized by Muslim executioners.
2015.09.13 Pakistan Khaisoor 2 0 Two men are picked off by Muslims while fetching water.
2015.09.13 Pakistan Khyber Pakhtunkhwa 7 0 Seven people are shot to death by Muslim terrorists.
2015.09.13 Iraq Mosul 5 0 Five rival prayer leaders are shot in the back of the head by the Muslim caliphate.
2015.09.13 Cameroon Kolofata 9 24 Three Muslim suicide bombers set themselves off at a packed market, killing at least nine.
2015.09.12 Syria Damascus 11 20 Jaish al-Islam send rockets into a suburb, killing eleven residents.
2015.09.12 Iraq Mosul 1 0 The director of a radio station is executed by Muslims.
2015.09.12 Iraq Baiji 3 8 A Muslim attack leaves three dead.
2015.09.11 Nigeria Madgali 4 3 A Muslim female suicide bomber detonates at a market, taking four patrons with her.
2015.09.11 Egypt Sinai 4 0 Four local soldiers are blown to bits by Muslims.
2015.09.11 Yemen Marib 20 40 At least twenty civilians bleed out following a rocket attack by Muslims in a marketplace.
2015.09.11 Pakistan Pandyali 2 0 Two members of a peace committee are sectionalized by Muslims.
2015.09.11 Iraq Daquq 13 47 Thirteen Kurds are blown to bits by Muslim bombers.
2015.09.11 Nigeria Yola 7 20 Children are among the victims of a horrible Muslim bombing at a refugee camp that claims seven.
2015.09.11 Egypt Rafah 2 0 Muslims take out a woman and child with a car bomb.
2015.09.11 Syria Damascus 1 12 A civilian loses his life to a Muslim's mortar round.
2015.09.11 DRC Mamove 9 0 A Muslim attacker leaves at least nine others dead.
2015.09.10 Afghanistan Ghazni 5 0 Five police officers on patrol are destroyed by a Muslim bomb blast.
2015.09.10 Iraq Albu Souda 9 14 A Shahid suicide bomber snuffs out the lives of nine others.
2015.09.10 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 1 1 Terrorists take out a local official with a drive-by.
2015.09.10 Iraq Abu Ghraib 2 7 Two people are flattened by a Religion of Peace bomb blast.
2015.09.09 Iraq Mosul 10 0 Ten women are executed for refusing to have sex with Muslims.
2015.09.09 Afghanistan Kalakhan 2 1 Two Afghan are taken out by a Muslim bomb blast.
2015.09.09 Iraq Anbar 13 13 Over a dozen Iraqis are laid out by two Muslim suicide bombers.
2015.09.09 Iraq Hit 2 0 The Muslim caliph executes two people by tying them to explosives.
2015.09.09 Pakistan Shah Faisal 1 0 A 28-year-old man is shot to death by Muslims.
2015.09.09 Pakistan Karachi 2 0 Shiite Muslims are suspected of gunning down a shop owner and his assistant.
2015.09.09 Syria Abu al-Duhur 56 40 A Muslim assault on an airport leaves fifty-six others dead.
2015.09.09 Iraq Derik 35 0 Three dozen Kurds are killed by a Muslim suicide bomber.
2015.09.08 Iraq Qarma 8 0 Muslims sneak up and machine-gun eight people manning a checkpoint.
2015.09.08 Pakistan Khyber 6 0 Six members of a peace committee are abducted and slain by Muslims.
2015.09.08 Iraq Mosul 1 0 A female journalist is publicly executed by Muslims.
2015.09.07 Afghanistan Khurasan 1 0 A man is brutally beheaded by Muslims.
2015.09.07 Egypt Taweel al-Amir 2 5 Muslims kill two local security personnel with a roadside bomb.
2015.09.07 Libya Benghazi 7 0 Seven people lose their lives to an Islamist attack.
2015.09.07 Pakistan Qambarkhel 5 0 Muslim gunmen ambush and kill five tribals.

Your turn. List the deaths done in the name of Christianity during Sept 7 thru Sept 13.
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I find the concept of blaming Islam to be bordering rediculous. That is like Blaiming Africa for Ebola.

Islam is nothing more and nothing less than submitting to Allaah(swt) Evil, good, violent etc comes from a person's own choices.
It is not a case of blaming for 'blame' sake.
Ebola was a serious threat to humanity and to resolve and prevent the disease the effective strategy was to find the proximate root causes and take preventive actions.

Now what we have in reality is this; [26,902]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/TROP.jpg



The above and other evils are the REALITY humanity must address, resolve and prevent. Just as how we approach the Ebola problem effectively to the root cause we need to do the same for the above Islamic violence.

I have traced the above root causes to;

1. DNA wise ALL humans has an inherent potential for evil.
2. 10% [conservatively] of humans are most likely to be reasonable evil prone.
3. Thus 10% of Muslims are evil prone
4. There are hundreds to thousands of evil laden [in degrees] verses in the Quran.
5. The combination of 3 & 4 culminate in the Reality highlighted in above statistics and elsewhere.
6. Therefore Islam [in part] has violent potentials as realized over the past centuries to the present.

The above conclusion in 6 is not 'blame' per se but actual proof based on verifiable evidences.

Therefore to resolve the problem one must first recognize the above factual root causes, i.e.
Islam [in part] is responsible for most of the evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
Quote:
I will agree that a minimum percentage of Human beings have a predisposistion for violence. Actually I suspect it is much high than 10% as evidenced by the human trait of enjoying watching violent act even such quiet past times like watching Foot ball, Soccor, Wrestling, action movies, or engaging in adrenaline inducing behaviors like base diving, drag racing etc.
Note I have revised my usual presentation to the following;

1. DNA wise ALL humans inherently has the potential for evil.
2. 10% [conservatively] of humans are most likely to be reasonable evil prone.
3. Thus 10% of Muslims are evil prone

I have used 10% as a very conservative estimate in this particular case. It could be more than 50% if we take into consideration the lesser evils of lying, stealing, bribery, selfishness, wife/child abuse, etc.

Quote:
Violence is rampant, the US alone has over 14.000 murders per year and over 1 million violent crimes.

The US population is almost exactly 1/5 the worlds Muslim Population and the amount of violence is actually at a higher per capita rate than what is found for the world's Islamic population. To match the US rate the Muslim population would have to be killing(Murdering ) 70,000 people annually, Last year the number was 37,000 or roughly 1/2 the rate by Americans. But to be fair it should be noted that nearly all of those deaths were in a very small region Yemen, Iraq and Syria. Which gives them very high visibility.

There is no indication that Islam results in a higher rate of violence than what is found in the non-Muslim population. Contrarily, the violence rate per capita in Islamic nations is lower than what is found in non-Muslim populations and would be even much lower if the unrest in the Mideast were ended.
This is your usual deflection and not recognizing a particular evil for what it is.

I have stated, ALL human evils and violence must be addressed.
As a principle of Problem-Solving Technique, it is essential to break down a problem into common pattern and manageable units to facilitate efficiency.
This is why we have specialists in all fields of human activities, e.g. medicine, psychology, knowledge, etc.
Would you recommend such an approach?

One significant division is breaking the issues of evil into
1. Secular and
2. Religious [related and inspired]

Since this is a Religion/Spirituality forum it is inappropriate to bring in non-religious evil as a red-herring.

The tendency to dilute the specific evils of religion with other evils is purely due to psychological and emotional factors of the individual.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:43 PM
 
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"I have used 10% as a very conservative estimate in this particular case."

I think this may be conservative for other reasons. Wouldn't the violent 10% of humanity that are non-Muslims possibly be joining up with Islam, liking the violent aspect? For example, we have the conversion of criminals to Islam and the Westerners joining ISIS. And, the more peaceful Muslims would be more likely to leave Islam. Do you think that impacts the 10%?
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I have used 10% as a very conservative estimate in this particular case."

I think this may be conservative for other reasons. Wouldn't the violent 10% of humanity that are non-Muslims possibly be joining up with Islam, liking the violent aspect? For example, we have the conversion of criminals to Islam and the Westerners joining ISIS. And, the more peaceful Muslims would be more likely to leave Islam. Do you think that impacts the 10%?
It is possible for the 10% evil prone of humanity who are non-Muslims to join ISIS and others. But I think they have to convert to be Muslims before people like ISIS would accept them as partner in crime.
It is true, with the promotions from ISIS and the likes, the evil prone who are non-Muslims are most likely to convert to be Muslims to feast on the evils which is sanctioned by God and thus they have a good excuse to do it.

One point to note is, the 10% of evil prone Muslims is a conservative estimate as the potential numbers could be more when in this case, many supposedly 'good' Muslims from the other 90% can easily turn evil when certain sensitive switches are turned on. We have many cases of 'good' Muslims as known by their families and friends suddenly and to their surprise turning up in the news as 'bad' jihadists.
IMO, 10% is a very strong and secure estimate as even at this low 10%, the potential pool of evil prone is already 150 million which is a very frightening quantum and that is why we have the actualized reality of significant evils and violence around the world.

In addition, therein the 90% there could be a large number who provide financial support and indirect moral support to the jihadists. These are all relevant factors which I have not emphasize but merely focus on the significant and critical elements at present.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I have used 10% as a very conservative estimate in this particular case."

I think this may be conservative for other reasons. Wouldn't the violent 10% of humanity that are non-Muslims possibly be joining up with Islam, liking the violent aspect? For example, we have the conversion of criminals to Islam and the Westerners joining ISIS. And, the more peaceful Muslims would be more likely to leave Islam. Do you think that impacts the 10%?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is possible for the 10% evil prone of humanity who are non-Muslims to join ISIS and others. But I think they have to convert to be Muslims before people like ISIS would accept them as partner in crime.
It is true, with the promotions from ISIS and the likes, the evil prone who are non-Muslims are most likely to convert to be Muslims to feast on the evils which is sanctioned by God and thus they have a good excuse to do it.

One point to note is, the 10% of evil prone Muslims is a conservative estimate as the potential numbers could be more when in this case, many supposedly 'good' Muslims from the other 90% can easily turn evil when certain sensitive switches are turned on. We have many cases of 'good' Muslims as known by their families and friends suddenly and to their surprise turning up in the news as 'bad' jihadists.
IMO, 10% is a very strong and secure estimate as even at this low 10%, the potential pool of evil prone is already 150 million which is a very frightening quantum and that is why we have the actualized reality of significant evils and violence around the world.

In addition, therein the 90% there could be a large number who provide financial support and indirect moral support to the jihadists. These are all relevant factors which I have not emphasize but merely focus on the significant and critical elements at present.
2 good points.

Yes, it is evident non-Muslims are Joining ISIS, probably because they have been led to believe Islam encourages violence. I doubt if ISIS is very concerned about their sincerity in accepting Islam. They probably want them as expendable fighters.

Even Jihad John has been found to be expendable.

https://www.rt.com/uk/310758-executi...hn-flees-isis/
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Old 09-19-2015, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
2 good points.

Yes, it is evident non-Muslims are Joining ISIS, probably because they have been led to believe Islam encourages violence. I doubt if ISIS is very concerned about their sincerity in accepting Islam. They probably want them as expendable fighters.

Even Jihad John has been found to be expendable.

https://www.rt.com/uk/310758-executi...hn-flees-isis/
2 good point for whom?

I stated the two types of people, i.e.;
1. Non-Muslims who converted and join ISIS and others purely to feast on violence. These people may not be religious. I admit these types of people are few in numbers and not many would want to risk such with ISIS who will sooner or later find out whether they are sincere or not.
Besides the Quran condemn such opportunists.

2. The majority who join ISIS started as religious minded Muslims and are influenced by Muslims leaders who are well verse with the Quran. Examples are people like Anjem Choudary and his likes and I bet they can out debate you with reference to the Quran regarding their duty as a Muslim. These are the majority of the Muslims who are evil prone.
The Muslims of ISIS and the likes know they are on a mission for the cause of Allah and casualties are expected.
The jihadists would not see those who are killed as expendable [that is only your thinking].
According to the Quran the martyrs would be rewarded more than the average Muslims.
In addition, if they are martyred, then the Quran explained that is in accordance to their appointed term. One cannot be martyred if one's appointed term is not yet due [cannot be hastened].

Another critical point is those killed and martyred are not considered dead but alive somewhere in the hereafter.


My point;
1. Islam exists and leveraged upon the Quran authorized by God
2. The Quran contain violent laden verses which influence
3. SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
If we can modulate the elements in bold, humanity will be able to modulate Islamic-based evils and violence.
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