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Old 09-20-2015, 02:00 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In actual fact you are the one who is being aggressive by borrowing violent verses and throwing them at me.
Such words will not avail you against God's punishment, because you know and you evade.

E.g. what you said here:

"What I presented was 2:272 which imply Muhammad was merely a conveyor and has no authority nor duty to guide Muslims."

Because the aya says the guidance is not up to Prophet Mohammed but it is up to God alone Who knows which one deserves the guidance and so will guide him, and knows who deserves the misguidance and so He will misguide him.
While the duty of the apostle (every apostle, not only Mohammed) is to convey the message and that Mohammed should rehearse to him the Quran; so he is required to tell him once only, and that will be enough; it will be an argument against him, because the warning has reached him.

The apostle is a guide: he acquaints them about the truth, and warns them of the consequence of their idolatry, and he conveys the Quran to them; but the acceptance of his instructions and his guidance is up to God.
This is very clear.
This is like Jesus Christ in his parable of the sower: who sows the seeds: some seed falling on a rock will not plant, and the seed which falls on a good land will plant in a good way.

I don't know what is your objection and what is the point of your seeding the doubt about the Quran to people?

Therefore, Abraham could not guide his father, nor could Noah guide his grandson Canaan, nor could Mohammed guide his uncle Abu Lahab.

This meaning is very clear throughout the Glorious Quran.

Moreover, you should know that the word 'guide' may mean:
You guide Juju to the way to the city.
But has Juju accepted your guiding? He may or may not accept your guiding: he may agree to take the way to the city and he may not.
So your duty is to guide Juju, but his acceptance of your guiding is up to God: if God likes, Juju will take the way to the city; but if God does not like, He will confuse Juju or leave him to some of his enemies who will not let him take the right way to the city, by deceiving him.

Last edited by roar; 09-20-2015 at 03:07 PM..
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Old 09-20-2015, 02:26 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13
The 'guidance' in the Quran
God guides the one who is kind to the weak, orphans, widows, poor, needy and the way-farer; He will guide the one who is good with the parents, the one who is not proud over others and the one who has a good conduct; God knows the truth about people; he knows which of them is prepared and who deserves the guidance, and so He will guide him; so this one will accept the guidance:

How man is guided to the Islam: to believe in God as One without son, or parents or equals or peers; and to believe in the Next Life, and to believe in all the prophets of God including Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, and to believe in all the heavenly books including: the Ten Commandments, the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospels and the Quran.

When God wants to guide such man, He gives leave or permission to His angels to speak to this man by way or inspiration, and to tell him that God is One and the idols are useless, and the Next Life is true and that Mohammed is truthful; so they keep telling him that, while he is almost unaware, until he is convinced and then will convert and become a Muslim: believing in all the prophets including Moses and Jesus and Mohammed, and believing in all the heavenly books including the Ten Commandments, the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.

{Quran 10: 100. No soul can believe [according to your will, Mohammed], but only according to God's leave [to His angels to inspire him e.] }
.................................................. ...............................
e It means: God gives permission to His angels to let him long to the belief, and make him desire in it, by means of inspiring into him, so that he will believe and convert.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

So the duty of the messenger or apostle is to convey the message to all people without exception: whether the man is poor or rich, short or tall, has a position or a simple one.
And it is up to God to guide of people which of them is prepared and who deserves the guidance.

So the apostle or messenger has to convey or deliver the message, and it is up to God to punish the disbelievers.
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Old 09-20-2015, 02:45 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13
A comment about the available translations of the meaning of the Quran

It is a matter of translation, that a word may be given a meaning that is not its exact meaning, but the translator works according to his understanding.
Then when he refers to the available commentaries of the Quran, he will select one or more of such commentaries to depend upon in his translation.
Then while an extensive part of the Quran is ambiguous or Mutashabih, then how can the translator convey the meaning to the foreign reader? In other words, while the Quarn is misunderstood by the translator himself, how could he convey it to the foreign reader; certainly his translation will be defective and giving not the true meaning; this of course is not deliberately; I find most of the translators worked hard to do this job.

Now, the ambiguous ayat have been explained by the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible; Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, who died at his death appointment at 1991 in Iraq.

So when the English reader reads the available translations, he will find much ambiguity and he may not understand and may take a distorted picture about the Quran.
Now, by God's help I have translated the interpretation of the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, and by God's will the English reader will find it useful and will understand the Glorious Quran, but the guidance as a whole is up to God alone.

And here is the introduction to this interpretation:
http://www.quran-ayat.com/index.htm#...interpretation
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Old 09-20-2015, 03:00 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13
The reason for revealing the ambiguous ayat of the Quran
The Quran includes the ambiguous ayat or the puzzles, because the Arab denied the Quran being the word of God and said that Mohammed himself invented it; therefore, God - be glorified - said to them:
You are fluent in your Arabic language, you appreciate the eloquence of language expression, and moreover you are clever at solving puzzles; in fact you speak in puzzles among yourselves so that the stranger will not understand their implication while among yourselves you know the implication.
And Mohammed is one of you; therefore, if you claim that Mohammed has invented the Quran, then do like him and produce one soora like the plain sooras of the Quran or solve one of its puzzles, for I have included puzzles in it.
And I give you a respite to do this: a long time: then if you are not able to do it, then I will inspire one of My servants about its true meaning, and he will explain it to you; in order to know that the Quran is the word of God not of Mohammed himself.

Such ambiguous ayat and their explanation will prove the truthfulness of Prophet Mohammed, when it will answer their objections and the truth will be evident to all people.

Such ayat could not be realized in the past, because it tells about scientific facts that were not understood in the past, in addition to many abbreviated letters.

The following link is to those who know Arabic:
المتشابه من القرآن
http://quran-ayat.com/tafseer/contents.php
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Old 09-20-2015, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Such words will not avail you against God's punishment, because you know and you evade.

E.g. what you said here:

"What I presented was 2:272 which imply Muhammad was merely a conveyor and has no authority nor duty to guide Muslims."

Because the aya says the guidance is not up to Prophet Mohammed but it is up to God alone Who knows which one deserves the guidance and so will guide him, and knows who deserves the misguidance and so He will misguide him.
While the duty of the apostle (every apostle, not only Mohammed) is to convey the message and that Mohammed should rehearse to him the Quran; so he is required to tell him once only, and that will be enough; it will be an argument against him, because the warning has reached him.

The apostle is a guide: he acquaints them about the truth, and warns them of the consequence of their idolatry, and he conveys the Quran to them; but the acceptance of his instructions and his guidance is up to God.
This is very clear.
This is like Jesus Christ in his parable of the sower: who sows the seeds: some seed falling on a rock will not plant, and the seed which falls on a good land will plant in a good way.

I don't know what is your objection and what is the point of your seeding the doubt about the Quran to people?

Therefore, Abraham could not guide his father, nor could Noah guide his grandson Canaan, nor could Mohammed guide his uncle Abu Lahab.

This meaning is very clear throughout the Glorious Quran.

Moreover, you should know that the word 'guide' may mean:
You guide Juju to the way to the city.
But has Juju accepted your guiding? He may or may not accept your guiding: he may agree to take the way to the city and he may not.
So your duty is to guide Juju, but his acceptance of your guiding is up to God: if God likes, Juju will take the way to the city; but if God does not like, He will confuse Juju or leave him to some of his enemies who will not let him take the right way to the city, by deceiving him.
2:272. The guiding of them [whomsoever] is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will.
The term 'guidance' appears 107 time(s) in 98 verse(s) in the Quran [Pickthall].
This term 'guidance' is critically associated with The Quran, i.e. 'guidance' = The Quran.
Thus what 2:272 refers to is the guidance of The Quran from Allah.
In this case, what it mean is, it is not the duty of Muhammad to act as the authoritative controller to 'guide' Muslims. Only Allah can do that. [P1]
So as per 2:272 Muhammad has no duty to guide Muslim in the sense of P1.

There is another typical sense of 'guide' which is different from P1.
This is in the sense of a guide of giving explanations and showing direction as an assistance or facilitator. [P2].
In this case of P2, there is no issue of Muhammad or any one at present guiding Muslims and it is up to the discretion of any Muslim to accept the advice or not. In any case, whatever is the guide, advice, interpretations [P2] it must conform to the actual in the Quran [P1].

My Point:
The OP is of concern to the authority of the Hadiths, Sira which are merely expositions by various people and recorded hundred+ years after the death of Muhammad. These [Hadiths, Sira] expositions are merely similar to P2 and cannot be taken as 'guide' in the sense as in 2:272.
Therefore these supposed sayings of Muhammad cannot carry any divine authority by themselves as restraint by 2:272.
The final arbiter must fall back to the 'Guidance' i.e. The Quran and not on whatever 'guides' was related to Muhammad or al-Hilly.
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar
I don't know what is your objection and what is the point of your seeding the
doubt about the Quran to people?
You don't have to take my words at all. After I can never be a 'guide.'
I am throwing in the points for discussion, this is the purpose of a forum.
I am a seeker of the truth, show me where I am wrong and if that is justifiable and I will readily accept it.
It is up to you to reflect in it.
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:06 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
Reputation: 435
"So your duty is to guide Juju, but his acceptance of your guiding is up to God: if God likes, Juju will take the way to the city; but if God does not like, He will confuse Juju or leave him to some of his enemies who will not let him take the right way to the city, by deceiving him."

And then, according to Islam, that same god that confused poor Juju or left poor Juju to some of his enemies who will not let him take the right way to the city, by deceiving him....will then endlessly torture poor Juju "with a terrible agony in this world and the next" by doing terrible things like this: "garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”.

This god is a god of hate and torture and suffering! It's like forcing or tricking your child into doing something, then beating him bloody every minute of every day after for doing it. No, it's worse.

Do you really think that Continuum and I should be endlessly torture for something, according to you, we had absolutely no control over and that allah made us do?

What if there is a different god that is making you believe in a false god named allah and who will endlessly torture YOU after death for believing in the false god allah?
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:42 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"So your duty is to guide Juju, but his acceptance of your guiding is up to God: if God likes, Juju will take the way to the city; but if God does not like, He will confuse Juju or leave him to some of his enemies who will not let him take the right way to the city, by deceiving him."

And then, according to Islam, that same god that confused poor Juju or left poor Juju to some of his enemies who will not let him take the right way to the city, by deceiving him....will then endlessly torture poor Juju "with a terrible agony in this world and the next" by doing terrible things like this: "garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”.

This god is a god of hate and torture and suffering! It's like forcing or tricking your child into doing something, then beating him bloody every minute of every day after for doing it. No, it's worse.

Do you really think that Continuum and I should be endlessly torture for something, according to you, we had absolutely no control over and that allah made us do?

What if there is a different god that is making you believe in a false god named allah and who will endlessly torture YOU after death for believing in the false god allah?
Juju is not poor, Juju is a wrong-doer deserving the misguidance; and so God misguides him; if he had been righteous then God would have guided him.

As God - be glorified - said in the Quran 14: 27
{God misguides wrong-doers n}
.................................................. ..........................
n It means: Those who wrong people, God will misguide them away from the way of the truth. While those who believe: they are merciful, and therefore, God guided them to the way of the truth.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/man/3.htm#Question_34
http://www.quran-ayat.com/man/3.htm#Question_35
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:00 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You don't have to take my words at all. After I can never be a 'guide.'
I am throwing in the points for discussion, this is the purpose of a forum.
I am a seeker of the truth, show me where I am wrong and if that is justifiable and I will readily accept it.
It is up to you to reflect in it.
God knows the true intention in the hearts of people, and will deal with each one accordingly
Quran 34: 24
{[You will see whether] I or you are on guidance or in obvious error." h}
.................................................. .......................
h i.e. you will know who is the misguided and who is the guided: we or you.
Similar to this in meaning is in the Quran 54: 26, which means:
(They shall surely know tomorrow [when the chastisement will come to them] who is the liar that covets!)
That is because they said to Prophet Salih: You are a coveting liar.
And as such did the pagan Arab: the associaters say to Prophet Mohammed: “You are misguided because you revile our gods.”

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:09 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,421 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My Point:
The OP is of concern to the authority of the Hadiths, Sira which are merely expositions by various people and recorded hundred+ years after the death of Muhammad. These [Hadiths, Sira] expositions are merely similar to P2 and cannot be taken as 'guide' in the sense as in 2:272.
Therefore these supposed sayings of Muhammad cannot carry any divine authority by themselves as restraint by 2:272.
The final arbiter must fall back to the 'Guidance' i.e. The Quran and not on whatever 'guides' was related to Muhammad or al-Hilly.
The hadiths are different from the Quran; the Quran is the word of God: word by word. While the hadiths include a large number of false or fabricated hadiths.

The hadiths: if they are true and authentic, they should be obeyed;

but because of the existence of a large number of fabricated hadiths, we should be cautious and should check the hadiths by comparing them to the Quran: if the hadith agrees with the Quran, then it is true; while if the hadith does not agree with the Quran, then it is fabricated and we should not hold fast with it.
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