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Old 09-19-2015, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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2:272. The guiding of them [as Muslims] is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will.

There are many verses reflecting the same point of the above and Muhammad is presented in many verses as merely a conveyor of the Quran, a reminder, a warner, bringer of good tidings.
The Quran is often refer as the 'guidance' and thus it would imply that a Muslim can only be guided within the confine of the Quran and nothing more.

Often Muslims will quote Muhammad, i.e. Muhammad said this or that with reference to a Hadiths as if what he had spoken is of an authority.

Even when Muhammad is referred to an exemplar, my view is, whatever is quoted from the Hadiths regarding what Muhammad said must have a cross-reference to the relevant verse in the Quran.

Any verse from the Hadiths that is not supported by any relevant verse in the Quran should not be regarded as divine.

For those who insists the verses in the Hadiths which do not has any corresponding support from the Quran, do carry the divine authority of Allah, how do you justify that?
There are many Hadiths that are not represented in the Quran.
For example Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) relating to the stoning to death for adultery.

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Old 09-19-2015, 01:55 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2:272. The guiding of them [as Muslims] is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will.

There are many verses reflecting the same point of the above and Muhammad is presented in many verses as merely a conveyor of the Quran, a reminder, a warner, bringer of good tidings.
The Quran is often refer as the 'guidance' and thus it would imply that a Muslim can only be guided within the confine of the Quran and nothing more.

Often Muslims will quote Muhammad, i.e. Muhammad said this or that with reference to a Hadiths as if what he had spoken is of an authority.

Even when Muhammad is referred to an exemplar, my view is, whatever is quoted from the Hadiths regarding what Muhammad said must have a cross-reference to the relevant verse in the Quran.

Any verse from the Hadiths that is not supported by any relevant verse in the Quran should not be regarded as divine.

For those who insists the verses in the Hadiths which do not has any corresponding support from the Quran, do carry the divine authority of Allah, how do you justify that?
There are many Hadiths that are not represented in the Quran.
For example Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) relating to the stoning to death for adultery.

Views?
Allahu Akbar on you, and on your fallacies!
What's all this aggression against God's word in the Quran!?
Anyhow, I will answer you, and God will punish you.
{34: 5. But those who work to [void] Our revelations so as to frustrate [Us]; there will be for them a chastisement of painful wrath [in the Next Life h.]}
.................................................. .................
h i.e. they will have a painful chastisement: wasps and scorpions to sting them in the Barzakh world [or the Afterlife.]
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:17 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2:272. The guiding of them [as Muslims] is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will.

There are many verses reflecting the same point of the above and Muhammad is presented in many verses as merely a conveyor of the Quran, a reminder, a warner, bringer of good tidings.
The Quran is often refer as the 'guidance' and thus it would imply that a Muslim can only be guided within the confine of the Quran and nothing more.

Often Muslims will quote Muhammad, i.e. Muhammad said this or that with reference to a Hadiths as if what he had spoken is of an authority.

Even when Muhammad is referred to an exemplar, my view is, whatever is quoted from the Hadiths regarding what Muhammad said must have a cross-reference to the relevant verse in the Quran.

Any verse from the Hadiths that is not supported by any relevant verse in the Quran should not be regarded as divine.

For those who insists the verses in the Hadiths which do not has any corresponding support from the Quran, do carry the divine authority of Allah, how do you justify that?
There are many Hadiths that are not represented in the Quran.
For example Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) relating to the stoning to death for adultery.

Views?
The duty of the messenger of God is to convey the message, while the matter of guiding or misguiding people is up to God.
How is that?
When the messenger or apostle (and this is true of all the prophets and apostles or messengers) reads or rehearses the Quran to people: they will become two parties:
1- Some will respond and accept the Quran and believe in God as One God without associate or son or equal, and will believe in the Next Life, and so they will convert and become Muslims: this party are the kind-hearted, those who show kindness to the weak, the poor, orphans and widows. So this party deserves the guidance, and so God knows about them and will guide them and will reward them in Paradise or heaven.

2- While the other party: the hard-hearted, the haughty, who do not show kindness to parents, to orphans and widows, and who are stingy with their wealth and do not expend out of their money to aid the needy --- these will not respond and will not accept any argument, whatever the apostle may speak to them and whatever parables are said to them in the Quran and the Gospel (this is the same for every prophet with his people.) So this party deserves the misguidance, therefore God Who knows about them, will not guide them, and they will be misguided and will be punished in Hell.

{Quran 10: 99. [O Mohammed,] if your Lord had willed, all those in the earth as a whole [: all the planets] would have believed d.
Then can you compel people to become believers?

100. No soul can believe [according to your will, Mohammed], but only according to God's leave [to His angels to inspire him e.]
And He lays [psychological] illness on those who do not use their reason [but they hold fast with the traditions of their fathers f.] }
--------------------------------------------------------------
d i.e. all those in the entire planets would have believed.
e It means: God gives permission to His angels to let him long to the belief, and make him desire in it, by means of inspiring into him, so that he will believe and convert.
f i.e. who do not use their minds, but they cling to the traditions of their fathers.

On the other hand, God sends the apostles or messengers so as to be followed and obeyed by people; so that their obeying the apostle is in fact an obedience to God Himself, because the messenger works according to God's instructions.
{Quran 4: 64. We did never send [before you, Mohammed,] any messenger [to his people] but only that he should be obeyed g with God's permission h; }
.................................................. ...................
g Concerning his bidding and forbidding them.
h i.e. God has permitted you [people] to obey him, to listen to his words, and never to disobey his commands.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.
See here more information about the guidance is up to God alone.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflicts/...e_of_the_Bible

Last edited by roar; 09-19-2015 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 09-19-2015, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,601,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Allahu Akbar on you, and on your fallacies!
What's all this aggression against God's word in the Quran!?
Anyhow, I will answer you, and God will punish you.
{34: 5. But those who work to [void] Our revelations so as to frustrate [Us]; there will be for them a chastisement of painful wrath [in the Next Life h.]}
.................................................. .................
h i.e. they will have a painful chastisement: wasps and scorpions to sting them in the Barzakh world [or the Afterlife.]
In actual fact you are the one who is being aggressive by borrowing violent verses and throwing them at me.

What's the fallacies you are referring to?
Can you demonstrate why my proposition is wrong or false?

What I presented was 2:272 which imply Muhammad was merely a conveyor and has no authority nor duty to guide Muslims.

Therefore any thing that is claimed to be from Muhammad and not from God [via Quran] cannot be taken as Allah's "guide."
I gave an example, Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) with reference to stoning to death for adultery which is not mentioned in the Quran. Since this Hadith is only claimed to be spoken by Muhammad only [i.e. not in the Quran] it cannot be taken as authorized by God.
What is wrong with my point?
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Old 09-19-2015, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In actual fact you are the one who is being aggressive by borrowing violent verses and throwing them at me.

What's the fallacies you are referring to?
Can you demonstrate why my proposition is wrong or false?

What I presented was 2:272 which imply Muhammad was merely a conveyor and has no authority nor duty to guide Muslims.

Therefore any thing that is claimed to be from Muhammad and not from God [via Quran] cannot be taken as Allah's "guide."
I gave an example, Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) with reference to stoning to death for adultery which is not mentioned in the Quran. Since this Hadith is only claimed to be spoken by Muhammad only [i.e. not in the Quran] it cannot be taken as authorized by God.
What is wrong with my point?
I do not believe you will find many of us who believe it was Muhammad(saws)'s duty to guide us. We alone are responsible for the paths we take.
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Old 09-19-2015, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not believe you will find many of us who believe it was Muhammad(saws)'s duty to guide us. We alone are responsible for the paths we take.
If that is the case do you agree Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) and other hadiths that do not has any support from the Quran, should NOT be taken as if they are from Allah and therefrom are to be imposed on Muslims as God's laws?

Last edited by Continuum; 09-19-2015 at 08:07 PM..
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Old 09-19-2015, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If that is the case do you agree Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809) and other hadiths that do not has any support from the Quran should be taken as if they are from Allah and therefrom are to be imposed on Muslims as God's laws?
Also in the Qur'an you will find:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)"5:92


"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)"64:12


For reasons I do not know, not all of the revelations sent to Muhammad(saws) are contained within the Qur'an. My guess (it is a guess) are that because these were things already ingrained deeply in Jewish and Christian teachings that there was no need to repeat them in the Qur'an.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Also in the Qur'an you will find:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)"5:92


"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)"64:12


For reasons I do not know, not all of the revelations sent to Muhammad(saws) are contained within the Qur'an. My guess (it is a guess) are that because these were things already ingrained deeply in Jewish and Christian teachings that there was no need to repeat them in the Qur'an.
It cannot be "obey the messenger" based on his personal biasness. whims and views!
From psychology you should know each individual has their own personal bias due to their personal elements of 'nature' and 'nurture' and given that Muhammad has 40 years of those.
Therefore in all instances "Obey the messenger" has to be in the context of whatever is in reference to the Quran.

That would include whatever knowledge and wisdom that is stated in the Quran as being delivered to Muhammad. To be objective, these has to be confined to whatever is in the Quran. This is like a news reporter who has to be objective in reporting what is the fact and not to include his/her own subjective views.

The critical bottom line is,
....... upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)"64:12

It is stated in the Quran,
5:3 ...This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM. ..........

20:114. Then exalted be Allah, the True King! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Qur’an ere its revelation hath been Perfected unto thee, and say [O Muhammad]: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge.

11:1 Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are Perfected and then expounded. (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed,

Quote:
For reasons I do not know, not all of the revelations sent to Muhammad(saws) are contained within the Qur'an. My guess (it is a guess) are that because these were things already ingrained deeply in Jewish and Christian teachings that there was no need to repeat them in the Qur'an.
Your guess?? You do not trust Allah with the above verses, 5:3, 20:114, 11:1 and others that reflect the same message?
If you allow anything else, i.e. of Jewish or Christian traditions, then anything can be argued by any one and claimed to be the words of God.

Note Allah took great steps in insisting Muhammad was illiterate, never heard of the old biblical stories, etc. and he was merely a 'parrot' [perfect tape recorder] in reciting the Quran. This is to ensure there is no inclusion of Muhammad own personal views, subjectiveness and biasness, and whatever that is recited is purely from God via Gabriel.

In addition, the Quran claimed the original oral message conveyed to the messengers of old has been changed, hidden, and corrupted to the extent that whatever was written down subsequently and as in the present [Torah of the Jews, Gospels of Christians] cannot be relied upon by Muslims.

As stated in the Quran, the only Quran to be relied upon as the final message is the one recited to Muhammad from Allah!

Last edited by Continuum; 09-19-2015 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It cannot be "obey the messenger" based on his personal biasness. whims and views!
From psychology you should know each individual has their own personal bias due to their personal elements of 'nature' and 'nurture' and given that Muhammad has 40 years of those.
Therefore in all instances "Obey the messenger" has to be in the context of whatever is in reference to the Quran.
That would include whatever knowledge and wisdom that is stated in the Quran as being delivered to Muhammad. To be objective, these has to be confined to whatever is in the Quran. This is like a news reporter who has to be objective in reporting what is the fact and not to include his/her own subjective views.


It is stated in the Quran,
5:3 ...This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM. ..........

20:114. Then exalted be Allah, the True King! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Qur’an ere its revelation hath been Perfected unto thee, and say [O Muhammad]: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge.

11:1 Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are Perfected and then expounded. (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed,

Your guess?? You do not trust Allah with the above verses, 5:3, 20:114, 11:1 and others that reflect the same message?
If you allow anything else, i.e. of Jewish or Christian traditions, then anything can be argued by any one and claimed to be the words of God.

Note Allah took great steps in insisting Muhammad was illiterate, never heard of the old biblical stories, etc. and he was merely a 'parrot' [perfect tape recorder] in reciting the Quran. This is to ensure there is no inclusion of Muhammad own personal views, subjectiveness and biasness, and that whatever that is recited is purely from God via Gabriel.

In addition, the Quran claimed the original oral message conveyed to the messengers of old has been changed, hidden, and corrupted to the extent that whatever was written down subsequently and as in the present [Torah of the Jews, Gospels of Christians] cannot be relied upon by Muslims.

As stated in the Quran, the only Quran to be relied upon as the final message is the one recited to Muhammad from Allah!
Actually the Arabs were quite familiar with Judaism, Sabeeanism and Christianity. At the time of Muhammad(saws) Judaism and Christianity were dominate in Mecca and Medinah, although they were considered heretical sects by mainstream Jews and Christians.

The Qur'an is not a new revelation, the overall message is what was revealed in the past to the Jews, Sabeeans and Christians.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Actually the Arabs were quite familiar with Judaism, Sabeeanism and Christianity. At the time of Muhammad(saws) Judaism and Christianity were dominate in Mecca and Medinah, although they were considered heretical sects by mainstream Jews and Christians.

The Qur'an is not a new revelation, the overall message is what was revealed in the past to the Jews, Sabeeans and Christians.
What I presented is in principle, otherwise Islam do not work as what is supposed to be prescribed and proscribed in the Quran.

Thus my points in relation to keeping the integrity of Islam intact;
The Quran claimed the original oral message conveyed to the messengers of old has been changed, hidden, and corrupted to the extent that whatever was written down subsequently and as in the present [Torah of the Jews, Gospels of Christians] cannot be relied upon by Muslims.

In principle, there is no room for any thing in the existing Torah, Gospels and the older traditions to be regarded as authorized Islamic principles except those that conform to what is in the Quran.

As stated in the Quran, the only Quran to be relied upon as the final message is the one recited to Muhammad from Allah!

However, from my personal objective perspective;
1. It is impossible for God to exists as real.
2. There is no Quran from any God.
3. The Quran was developed and established by humans.
4. If Muhammad contributed to the Quran, then he would have heard stories of the Bible and represented them and many with errors from the original.
5. In many cases the made-to-order Chapters were recited to serve Muhammad personal interests, e.g. those rebuking his wife complains, authority to marry his son's in law wife, rebuking those who slander Ayesha, etc.
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