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Old 09-27-2015, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,603,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
lol haha
That's your opinion.

Let me give Khaled Yasin's opinion.

but really, if what you say is correct then why there are more women than men who convert to Islam?
Khaled Yasin's opinion is based on ignorance. One can never get an objective view from people who are subjected to severe psychological and existential threats [subliminal].
Take for example a group of masochists, they will never admit to being abused violently, rather it is a 'pleasure' to them.

Objectively note these verses from the Quran with commentaries;


Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).
In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

2:222. They [Muslims] question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, ....
Such falsehood is degrading and an insult to women in general.

Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they would make more reliable witnesses.

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"
Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse, which it has been used historically to justify. If this is what Muhammad meant, however, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

Qur'an (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.
Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

It is obvious and very objective from the above verses women are not treated equally in the Quran. The Hadiths has many more such verses.

I have not read of the statistics where there are more women than male converts.

There are many reasons for conversions from one religion to another.
However the reason why women convert despite the unequal treatment is the psychological trade off [subliminal] of the above inequalities with a more terrible existential threat if they do convert voluntarily.
Under severe psychological and existence threat [subliminal in this case] people will usually compromise one extreme for another more extreme.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-27-2015 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 09-27-2015, 10:42 PM
 
4,447 posts, read 1,674,615 times
Reputation: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khaled Yasin's opinion is based on ignorance. One can never get an objective view from people who are subjected to severe psychological and existential threats [subliminal].
Take for example a group of masochists, they will never admit to being abused violently, rather it is a 'pleasure' to them.

Objectively note these verses from the Quran with commentaries;


Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).
In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

2:222. They [Muslims] question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, ....
Such falsehood is degrading and an insult to women in general.

Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they would make more reliable witnesses.

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"
Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse, which it has been used historically to justify. If this is what Muhammad meant, however, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

Qur'an (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.
Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

It is obvious and very objective from the above verses women are not treated equally in the Quran. The Hadiths has many more such verses.

I have not read of the statistics where there are more women than male converts.

There are many reasons for conversions from one religion to another.
However the reason why women convert despite the unequal treatment is the psychological trade off [subliminal] of the above inequalities with a more terrible existential threat if they do convert voluntarily.
Under severe psychological and existence threat [subliminal in this case] people will usually compromise one extreme for another more extreme.
Yet you can't answer why there are more WOMEN who enter into Islam than men?

lol, I simply laugh at your ignorance when you claim that someone else's "opinion is based on ignorance"
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,603,512 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Yet you can't answer why there are more WOMEN who enter into Islam than men?

lol, I simply laugh at your ignorance when you claim that someone else's "opinion is based on ignorance"
The subject was about inequality of women in Islam as supported by the verses I quoted.

Note I gave the reason why in general people convert re the trade off. You did not provide actual proof, but if true with actual numbers, why there are more women entering into Islam is the fact they are more prone and susceptible to that trade-off than men. QED.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:12 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 760,086 times
Reputation: 435
"Yet you can't answer why there are more WOMEN who enter into Islam than men?"

I think this is true and it is frightening that anyone would convert.

Many conversions take place in jail, and are recruits for terrorist activities.

Conversions for the sake of becoming terrorists may seem to only apply to men, but young girls are also converting for this reason!

"The first thing the Dutch girl did once she’d converted to Islam was change her name – to Soumaya, she says, because “she was the first martyr. She was prepared to die for Allah.”

We see girls running to join ISIS.

Consider:

"Soumaya, ne Aphrodite, is one of a wave of tens of thousands of Westerners who convert to Islam every year, more than 75 percent of whom, astonishingly, are women. Equally surprising is the fact that most of these women gravitate to conservative Islamic groups – the more misogynistic and oppressive ones – insisting all the while that they feel “liberated” and “free.”

Reading through dozens of stories of such women, one can’t help but notice the similarities among them. All claim to have embraced Islam of their own free will; yet an overwhelming majority, like Soumaya (whose story was profiled in the Dutch newspaper Het Parool), converted only after dating (or wedding) a Muslim man, usually – interestingly enough – a Moroccan (even in countries like England, where Moroccans do not form the majority Muslim population)."

I've spoken to girls who married Muslim men and converted and they do it to rebel and because it's exotic. Eventually, all of the ones I know of left Islam and their husbands. After they were beaten and mistreated.

"Others speak of “finding themselves” after years of wild drink and drugs – a pattern similar to that found in male prison converts, who often are convinced by other Muslim inmates to seek salvation through Allah. They repeat, as if by rote, the same rhetoric about escaping the sexual objectification of women by adopting the hijab or full-body abaya, as if in their previous life it had not occurred to them to dress in maxi skirts or loose-fitting turtlenecks and jeans."

These girls are obviously not rational thinkers. They are young and impressionable. The same types become Wiccans or join EST.

"(Hilariously, Aphrodite/Soumaya, along with all the other young women profiled, appears photographed in hijab and a full face of makeup – which, of course, is what women wear in order to appear more beautiful to men.) In so doing, they ignore – I would argue, are made to ignore – the very essence of what such coverings in fact represent: The notion that a woman is nothing but sexual object, and therefore must be kept hidden, just as, in the West, we hide our genitalia. That this fact is not explained to these women and young girls is what has many feminists concerned, not only about Muslim women in general, but particularly, about converts, who are, as it were, handed Islam in small, attractive bites, sweetened artificially and served up on flowered plates."

And this is an important point. These girls have no clue what they are getting into. They have not read, let alone understood, the Quran and hadiths. Can you really call them Muslims?

"Most of these young women display little self-confidence or ability to define their own values and behavior – qualities that make them easily influenced by others, and susceptible especially to those who offer up a lifestyle option that relinquishes them from responsibility for their actions, that gives them a code of behavior and the ease of attributing what they do or wear or eat to God and not to self."

This is what I have noticed. But most of all I notice the need to rebel against parents (usually) and peers.

"And because their profiles are so similar – young, female, insecure, seeking structure and an identity– it isn’t just seducing women to convert that is made so easy. Recruiting by radicals can be -- and is --performed virtually programmatically.

Over and over, for instance, young female converts speak of wanting to be a good Muslim and a good wife; the two become equated, acted out in a life of feminine submission, first to her husband and then, by extension, to Allah.

This is dangerous stuff. Indeed, as the BBC reported as early as 2010 , often Muslim women are targeted by extremist recruiters for jihad precisely for their willingness to follow the advice of more “knowledgeable” Muslims and the commands and demands of Muslim men."

Scary.

"Islamists often prey on their emotions, exposing these girls to videos of child victims of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, while explaining the importance of violent jihad.

Speaking to the BBC, then 32-year-old Hadiya Masich (not a convert), who was recruited by members of the radical Hizb-ut-Tahir, explained that “once they’ve established that suspicion (against the West)…that emotion can be challenged in various ways, including violence.”

"Violence, however, is rare among women – though the frequency is increasing at an alarming rate. Radicalized Muslimas are far more likely to take part in terrorist plots indirectly, either, say, by raising their sons to be suicide bombers, or by sending funds to terrorist groups."

"The trend is also notable in the US, where in between 2001 and 2010 alone, seven Muslim women – including four converts – were convicted on terrorism charges. An ADL report observed, “Foreign terrorist organizations have also sought to recruit female operatives with Western appearances."

This is very bad:

"In January, 2010, for example, reports surfaced that Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Al Qaeda’s affiliate based in Yemen and Saudi Arabia, had formed a brigade of non-Arab women who carry Western passports. The women were reportedly recruited to carry out suicide attacks against American and Western targets in the region.”

Staggering Numbers of Women Converting to Islam

From another article, the lack of understanding of Islam is brought up again:

"More than three-quarters told researchers they had experienced high levels of confusion after conversion, due to the conflicting ways Islam was presented to them. While other major religions have established programmes for guiding new believers through the rigours of their faith, Islam still lacks any such network, especially outside the Muslim hubs of major cities."

That brings up the question: How many converts LEAVE Islam?

Most. The estimate I hear often is 75%. And born Muslims are also leaving Islam, despite a death sentence for leaving.

Losing their religion: The hidden crisis of faith among Britain

"If someone leaves Islam and becomes an apostate, he is thrown out of his family; his family will be the first ones to abandon him," Imran explained. "His friends will reject him and he will be killed or he will be persecuted. A lot of my friends said, 'This is the last time I'm talking to you because you disrespected the prophet Mohammed, you disrespected Islam.'"
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/201...lams-Collapse/
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Old 09-29-2015, 05:45 AM
 
144 posts, read 109,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

Objectively note these verses from the Quran with commentaries;
Are this your own commentaries ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).
In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.
Women keep money for themselves, the man has the obligation to spend money for his familly.

So she can keep :
-money from her work
-money from inheritence
-money from dowry

And when they divorce the man should give money to the woman. (all the details in surat 2)

If the woman is richer than the husband there's no law who stipulates she should give him anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2:222. They [Muslims] question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, ....
Such falsehood is degrading and an insult to women in general.


"illness" ... for what ?

Answer : to have sexual intercourses during that period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"


Because of what the spend to their familly.They have a responsability toward the wife(s) and children.
"Those who refuse, or neglect their duty to spend on their families despite their ability to do so committing a terrible sin for their negligence, as the Prophet (saw) said, A man who neglects those who are under his care would surely be committing a sin.

Marriage in Islam | New Muslim Guide


Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the Wife in Islam

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women…” | IslamToday - English

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"
Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).
Ah because when you have to pray, it's ok that you go just right after sexual intercourses ?

By the way, it's the same for the woman, she needs to be clean too.


There's also many verses stipulating women and men are equals.
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:05 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 760,086 times
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"There's also many verses stipulating women and men are equals."

You should post them.

I find so many of the verses incite disdain and even violence towards women and children!

For example:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

What if this verse had said:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Women are the maintainers of men because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good men are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

What is laughable is that Muhammed himself married a rich older women and SPENT HER MONEY. Should she have been allowed several husbands by allah? Should she beat Muhammed if she had 'reason'?

Muhammed himself raped a little 9 year old child, and he also hit her. How horrible is this??!! Does that show respect for women?

Muhammed also raped women, let his men mass rape women, sold women, owned concubines whom he had sex with also many wives.

Since Muhammed is considered a perfect example to follow, today we have Muslim men who totally disrespect women. The rape gangs in Sweden are one example. Punishment (even slaughter) of women and girls who have been raped is another.

"By the way, it's the same for the woman, she needs to be clean too."

The amusing thing here is that allah/Muhammed goes on about the filthy menses and it's from Satan and don't even get near the women:

'It is hurt; so go apart from women during the monthly course, and do not approach them till they are clean. When they have cleansed themselves, then come unto them as God has commanded you.....keep away from women during menses....whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening.....Allah's Messenger said: Sneezing, drowsing, yawning in prayer, also menstruation, vomiting and nose-bleeding are from (the acts of) Satan. " and on and on and on!!

But somehow that did not apply to Muhammed!

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299; see also Number 300)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet used to lean on my lap and recite Qur'an while I was in menses. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 296)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet used to recite the Quran with his head in my lap while I used to be in my periods (having menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 639)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
Umarah ibn Ghurab said that his paternal aunt narrated to him that she asked Aisha: What if one of us menstruates and she and her husband have no bed except one? She replied: I relate to you what the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) had done.
One night he entered (upon me) while I was menstruating. He went to the place of his prayer, that is, to the place of prayer reserved (for this purpose) in his house. He did not return until I felt asleep heavily, and he felt pain from cold. And he said: Come near me. I said: I am menstruating. He said: Uncover your thighs. I, therefore, uncovered both of my thighs. Then he put his cheek and chest on my thighs and I lent upon he until he became warm and slept. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 1, Number 0270)
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,363,589 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Yet you can't answer why there are more WOMEN who enter into Islam than men?"

I think this is true and it is frightening that anyone would convert.

Many conversions take place in jail, and are recruits for terrorist activities.

Conversions for the sake of becoming terrorists may seem to only apply to men, but young girls are also converting for this reason!

"The first thing the Dutch girl did once she’d converted to Islam was change her name – to Soumaya, she says, because “she was the first martyr. She was prepared to die for Allah.”

We see girls running to join ISIS.

Consider:

"Soumaya, ne Aphrodite, is one of a wave of tens of thousands of Westerners who convert to Islam every year, more than 75 percent of whom, astonishingly, are women. Equally surprising is the fact that most of these women gravitate to conservative Islamic groups – the more misogynistic and oppressive ones – insisting all the while that they feel “liberated” and “free.”

Reading through dozens of stories of such women, one can’t help but notice the similarities among them. All claim to have embraced Islam of their own free will; yet an overwhelming majority, like Soumaya (whose story was profiled in the Dutch newspaper Het Parool), converted only after dating (or wedding) a Muslim man, usually – interestingly enough – a Moroccan (even in countries like England, where Moroccans do not form the majority Muslim population)."

I've spoken to girls who married Muslim men and converted and they do it to rebel and because it's exotic. Eventually, all of the ones I know of left Islam and their husbands. After they were beaten and mistreated.

"Others speak of “finding themselves” after years of wild drink and drugs – a pattern similar to that found in male prison converts, who often are convinced by other Muslim inmates to seek salvation through Allah. They repeat, as if by rote, the same rhetoric about escaping the sexual objectification of women by adopting the hijab or full-body abaya, as if in their previous life it had not occurred to them to dress in maxi skirts or loose-fitting turtlenecks and jeans."

These girls are obviously not rational thinkers. They are young and impressionable. The same types become Wiccans or join EST.

"(Hilariously, Aphrodite/Soumaya, along with all the other young women profiled, appears photographed in hijab and a full face of makeup – which, of course, is what women wear in order to appear more beautiful to men.) In so doing, they ignore – I would argue, are made to ignore – the very essence of what such coverings in fact represent: The notion that a woman is nothing but sexual object, and therefore must be kept hidden, just as, in the West, we hide our genitalia. That this fact is not explained to these women and young girls is what has many feminists concerned, not only about Muslim women in general, but particularly, about converts, who are, as it were, handed Islam in small, attractive bites, sweetened artificially and served up on flowered plates."

And this is an important point. These girls have no clue what they are getting into. They have not read, let alone understood, the Quran and hadiths. Can you really call them Muslims?

"Most of these young women display little self-confidence or ability to define their own values and behavior – qualities that make them easily influenced by others, and susceptible especially to those who offer up a lifestyle option that relinquishes them from responsibility for their actions, that gives them a code of behavior and the ease of attributing what they do or wear or eat to God and not to self."

This is what I have noticed. But most of all I notice the need to rebel against parents (usually) and peers.

"And because their profiles are so similar – young, female, insecure, seeking structure and an identity– it isn’t just seducing women to convert that is made so easy. Recruiting by radicals can be -- and is --performed virtually programmatically.

Over and over, for instance, young female converts speak of wanting to be a good Muslim and a good wife; the two become equated, acted out in a life of feminine submission, first to her husband and then, by extension, to Allah.

This is dangerous stuff. Indeed, as the BBC reported as early as 2010 , often Muslim women are targeted by extremist recruiters for jihad precisely for their willingness to follow the advice of more “knowledgeable” Muslims and the commands and demands of Muslim men."

Scary.

"Islamists often prey on their emotions, exposing these girls to videos of child victims of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, while explaining the importance of violent jihad.

Speaking to the BBC, then 32-year-old Hadiya Masich (not a convert), who was recruited by members of the radical Hizb-ut-Tahir, explained that “once they’ve established that suspicion (against the West)…that emotion can be challenged in various ways, including violence.”

"Violence, however, is rare among women – though the frequency is increasing at an alarming rate. Radicalized Muslimas are far more likely to take part in terrorist plots indirectly, either, say, by raising their sons to be suicide bombers, or by sending funds to terrorist groups."

"The trend is also notable in the US, where in between 2001 and 2010 alone, seven Muslim women – including four converts – were convicted on terrorism charges. An ADL report observed, “Foreign terrorist organizations have also sought to recruit female operatives with Western appearances."

This is very bad:

"In January, 2010, for example, reports surfaced that Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Al Qaeda’s affiliate based in Yemen and Saudi Arabia, had formed a brigade of non-Arab women who carry Western passports. The women were reportedly recruited to carry out suicide attacks against American and Western targets in the region.”

Staggering Numbers of Women Converting to Islam

From another article, the lack of understanding of Islam is brought up again:

"More than three-quarters told researchers they had experienced high levels of confusion after conversion, due to the conflicting ways Islam was presented to them. While other major religions have established programmes for guiding new believers through the rigours of their faith, Islam still lacks any such network, especially outside the Muslim hubs of major cities."

That brings up the question: How many converts LEAVE Islam?

Most. The estimate I hear often is 75%. And born Muslims are also leaving Islam, despite a death sentence for leaving.

Losing their religion: The hidden crisis of faith among Britain

"If someone leaves Islam and becomes an apostate, he is thrown out of his family; his family will be the first ones to abandon him," Imran explained. "His friends will reject him and he will be killed or he will be persecuted. A lot of my friends said, 'This is the last time I'm talking to you because you disrespected the prophet Mohammed, you disrespected Islam.'"
Ex-Muslims Lighting the Way for Islam's Collapse? - World - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com
Just going to address this part

"More than three-quarters told researchers they had experienced high levels of confusion after conversion, due to the conflicting ways Islam was presented to them. While other major religions have established programmes for guiding new believers through the rigours of their faith, Islam still lacks any such network, especially outside the Muslim hubs of major cities."

That is true. There is no required learning nor any form of standarized teaching. One is not taught Islam, it is a personal responsibility to learn through self learning. Islam is all about personal responsibility not being taught a specific set of dogma.

Even interpretations and commentaries are to be viewed by us as opinions and not the 'Official" Islamic ruling. It only takes a matter of seconds to become a Muslim, but it requires a life time of study and searching to be a Muslim. It is all about self responsibility. We alone have the obligation to learn what the Qur'an teaches and what Islam is. We do have the ability to search the opinions and views of past scholars and we are to do such tto the best of our ability.
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Old 09-29-2015, 05:17 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 760,086 times
Reputation: 435
"That is true. There is no required learning nor any form of standarized teaching."

What seems to happen is that non-Muslims convert knowing nothing much about Islam. Then, they read the Quran and learn some things about Muhammed and run for the hills. Certainly no one tells them about all the endless torture Allah has planned for all non-Muslims (their non-Muslim family and friends) or about Muhammed's behavior.

Also, the abuse sets in. The women I know who married Muslims all were eventually beaten.


"Islam is all about personal responsibility not being taught a specific set of dogma."

Certainly this is not the case. In every branch of Islam we see nothing but dogma: 'an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.'

Islam:
Metaphysics: Mysticism. Acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one’s senses and one’s reason, which is dogmatic. 'Allah' created everything and knows all and controls all. Miracles occur. No objective reality based on natural law. Exemption of consciousness from the law of identity.

Epistemology: Blind/obedient following of the Quran and (some) hadiths and religious leaders Muhammed, Imams, whoever). The belief in the unknowable, which is revealed to some and withheld from others. The dogmatic belief that all people are born Muslims, with an innate (and dogmatic) belief in allah and islam. No rationality or critical thinking, no understanding that we acquire knowledge by a process of reason, but instead belief of sudden revelations from a supernatural power who manipulates us.

Ethics: Belief that the highest virtue man can practice is to hold his own life as of no value. Belief in original sin. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral as is a man with no choice. Under Islam, we had no choice since birth, when we are forced to be born Muslims. Allah dictates social behaviors and beliefs via threats of slaughter and torture. 'Allah said it, I believe it and that settles it.....pure dogma.
Shariah law.

It's all dogma.
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Old 09-29-2015, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,363,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"That is true. There is no required learning nor any form of standarized teaching."

What seems to happen is that non-Muslims convert knowing nothing much about Islam. Then, they read the Quran and learn some things about Muhammed and run for the hills. Certainly no one tells them about all the endless torture Allah has planned for all non-Muslims (their non-Muslim family and friends) or about Muhammed's behavior.

Also, the abuse sets in. The women I know who married Muslims all were eventually beaten.


"Islam is all about personal responsibility not being taught a specific set of dogma."

Certainly this is not the case. In every branch of Islam we see nothing but dogma: 'an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.'

Islam:
Metaphysics: Mysticism. Acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one’s senses and one’s reason, which is dogmatic. 'Allah' created everything and knows all and controls all. Miracles occur. No objective reality based on natural law. Exemption of consciousness from the law of identity.

Epistemology: Blind/obedient following of the Quran and (some) hadiths and religious leaders Muhammed, Imams, whoever). The belief in the unknowable, which is revealed to some and withheld from others. The dogmatic belief that all people are born Muslims, with an innate (and dogmatic) belief in allah and islam. No rationality or critical thinking, no understanding that we acquire knowledge by a process of reason, but instead belief of sudden revelations from a supernatural power who manipulates us.

Ethics: Belief that the highest virtue man can practice is to hold his own life as of no value. Belief in original sin. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral as is a man with no choice. Under Islam, we had no choice since birth, when we are forced to be born Muslims. Allah dictates social behaviors and beliefs via threats of slaughter and torture. 'Allah said it, I believe it and that settles it.....pure dogma.
Shariah law.

It's all dogma.

Working backward we do not believe in original sin. We are all born sinless and are not capable of sin until we are old enough to understand what sin is. Until we reach sufficient age to understand our choices, we are Muslim as we are incapable sin and all our actions are submission to the best of our ability and knowledge.

We are not accountable for that which we have no opportunity to learn or are incapable of understanding or do not have the ability to do.. No one is going to be punished for not knowing anything they have not had the opportunity to know.

There are some moral standards that are universal in all cutures and religions. Those even those who have never had the opportunity of learning about Islam, will be responsible for not doing.

We all will be punished for our misdeed and rewarded for our good deeds the rewards and punishments can occur in our life time, in the grave in the afterlife or in any combination.

While eternal punishment does exist, it is by our own choice it is what we earn. There are many factors involved that we have no way to understand, but we are told Allaah(swt) is all loving, will forgive all who repent, Punishes no more than what we have earned, yet rewards are many times more than what we deserve. The choices our ours, it is also our responsibility to know learn what our choices are, for that we have an obligation to learn to the best of our ability.

Rewards are given freely and abundantly. We have to work hard to earn punishments. they are not tossed at us willy-nilly. We have to know what will bring us punishment, but we do have a responsibility to do our best to learn what things will bring us punishments. Refusal to make a sincere attempt to learn, is tantamount to doing deliberately.

Everyone is ultimately responsible for their choices and are accountable for what we do of our own free will. It is not a threat it is a fact, bad choices result in pain. Even the simple act of crossing the road, if you choose to cross in front of a moving car, expect to experience severe pain.

The Qur'an basically is telling us it is not wise to do things that will result in pain.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-29-2015 at 07:27 PM..
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,603,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Are this your own commentaries ?
Mine and from other sources.

Quote:
Women keep money for themselves, the man has the obligation to spend money for his familly.

So she can keep :
-money from her work
-money from inheritence
-money from dowry

And when they divorce the man should give money to the woman. (all the details in surat 2)

If the woman is richer than the husband there's no law who stipulates she should give him anything.
Your explanation works in some circumstances but not all. What is stipulated in the Quran is taken to be a principle that is applicable till eternity. This fixed-laws of inequality is thus flawed and ineffective to cope with inevitable changes - 'Change is the only Constant.'

If Allah know all, Allah should not fixed the above law in the Quran.

Quote:
2:222 Menstruation is an illness ...
"illness" ... for what ?
Answer : to have sexual intercourses during that period.
I presume you omitted 'NOT', i.e. 'not to have sexual intercourses during that period.'
The point is the sentence 'Menstruation is an illness ...' is a falsehood, and if Allah is omniscient - knows all, Allah should not have made such a statement of falsehood, i.e. lying to believers.
All Allah need to state is 'Sex during menstruation is not permitted' instead of putting a very negative 'illness' and 'unclean' spin to it.

Surely it was Allah who programmed the natural, critical and necessary process of menstruation, and thus Allah should know it is not an illness in general at all.
13:8. Allah knoweth that which every female beareth and that which the wombs absorb and that which they grow. And everything with Him is measured.
3:6. He [Allah] it is who fashioneth you in the wombs as pleaseth Him. There is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise.
The 'unclean' association is very unnecessary as it put additional bad light on women in general till eternity.

The above indicate that the Quran is man-made and not from a God. As additional points; note Juju points re Muhammad & menstruation from the Hadiths.


Quote:
[/i]Because of what the spend to their familly.They have a responsability toward the wife(s) and children.
"Those who refuse, or neglect their duty to spend on their families despite their ability to do so committing a terrible sin for their negligence, as the Prophet (saw) said, A man who neglects those who are under his care would surely be committing a sin.

Marriage in Islam | New Muslim Guide

Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the Wife in Islam

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women…” | IslamToday - English
The Hadith is only relevant if they are in line with the Quran.
2:222 relate to divorce situations. However such decree together with the many such cases of inequality generate and contribute a general sense of inequality towards women that many Muslims will take it as a default for all cases.

Quote:
There's also many verses stipulating women and men are equals.
I have not read of many. In general the overall attitude as reflected in the Quran is the women is less equal than men especially in real life in this world that many Muslims will take it as a default for all cases.

The only effective equality without much prejudice for women as reflected in the Quran is when they are in the hereafter; [mine]
4:124. And whoso [Muslim] doeth good works, whether of male or female, and he (or she) is a believer, such will enter paradise and they [Muslims] will not be wronged the dint in a date stone.
I can understand why women were presented as inferior in the Quran. This is because the Quran was made by man during the 7th century and reflected the circumstance then. The Quran is not authored by a God. Muslims must recognize this 'man-made' fact and not pretend the Quran as from a God as fact.
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