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Old 09-30-2015, 09:19 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Working backward we do not believe in original sin. We are all born sinless and are not capable of sin until we are old enough to understand what sin is. Until we reach sufficient age to understand our choices, we are Muslim as we are incapable sin and all our actions are submission to the best of our ability and knowledge.

We are not accountable for that which we have no opportunity to learn or are incapable of understanding or do not have the ability to do.. No one is going to be punished for not knowing anything they have not had the opportunity to know.

There are some moral standards that are universal in all cutures and religions. Those even those who have never had the opportunity of learning about Islam, will be responsible for not doing.

We all will be punished for our misdeed and rewarded for our good deeds the rewards and punishments can occur in our life time, in the grave in the afterlife or in any combination.

While eternal punishment does exist, it is by our own choice it is what we earn. There are many factors involved that we have no way to understand, but we are told Allaah(swt) is all loving, will forgive all who repent, Punishes no more than what we have earned, yet rewards are many times more than what we deserve. The choices our ours, it is also our responsibility to know learn what our choices are, for that we have an obligation to learn to the best of our ability.

Rewards are given freely and abundantly. We have to work hard to earn punishments. they are not tossed at us willy-nilly. We have to know what will bring us punishment, but we do have a responsibility to do our best to learn what things will bring us punishments. Refusal to make a sincere attempt to learn, is tantamount to doing deliberately.

Everyone is ultimately responsible for their choices and are accountable for what we do of our own free will. It is not a threat it is a fact, bad choices result in pain. Even the simple act of crossing the road, if you choose to cross in front of a moving car, expect to experience severe pain.
Really? How do you KNOW this?
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Really? How do you KNOW this?
I will address this when I get home tonight and give sources for each of the following comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Working backward we do not believe in original sin. We are all born sinless and are not capable of sin until we are old enough to understand what sin is. Until we reach sufficient age to understand our choices, we are Muslim as we are incapable sin and all our actions are submission to the best of our ability and knowledge.

We are not accountable for that which we have no opportunity to learn or are incapable of understanding or do not have the ability to do.. No one is going to be punished for not knowing anything they have not had the opportunity to know.

There are some moral standards that are universal in all cutures and religions. Those even those who have never had the opportunity of learning about Islam, will be responsible for not doing.

We all will be punished for our misdeed and rewarded for our good deeds the rewards and punishments can occur in our life time, in the grave in the afterlife or in any combination.

While eternal punishment does exist, it is by our own choice it is what we earn. There are many factors involved that we have no way to understand, but we are told Allaah(swt) is all loving, will forgive all who repent, Punishes no more than what we have earned, yet rewards are many times more than what we deserve. The choices our ours, it is also our responsibility to know learn what our choices are, for that we have an obligation to learn to the best of our ability.

Rewards are given freely and abundantly. We have to work hard to earn punishments. they are not tossed at us willy-nilly. We have to know what will bring us punishment, but we do have a responsibility to do our best to learn what things will bring us punishments. Refusal to make a sincere attempt to learn, is tantamount to doing deliberately.

Everyone is ultimately responsible for their choices and are accountable for what we do of our own free will. It is not a threat it is a fact, bad choices result in pain. Even the simple act of crossing the road, if you choose to cross in front of a moving car, expect to experience severe pain.
Have to run out the door right now. C U later
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I will address this when I get home tonight and give sources for each of the following comments.



Have to run out the door right now. C U later
As promised

Quote:
Working backward we do not believe in original sin. We are all born sinless and are not capable of sin until we are old enough to understand what sin is. Until we reach sufficient age to understand our choices, we are Muslim as we are incapable sin and all our actions are submission to the best of our ability and knowledge.
SOURCE

Quote:
We are not accountable for that which we have no opportunity to learn or are incapable of understanding or do not have the ability to do.. No one is going to be punished for not knowing anything they have not had the opportunity to know.
12. The true Muslim believes that God does not hold any person responsible until He has shown him the Right Way. This is why God has sent many messengers and revelations, and has made it clear that there would be no punishment before giving guidance and sounding the alarm. So, a person who has never come across any Divine revelations or messenger, or a person who is insane is not held responsible to God for failing to obey the Divine instructions. Such a person will be responsible only for not doing what his sound common sense tells him to do. But the person who knowingly and intentionally violates the Law of God or deviates from His Right Path will be punished for his wrong deeds (4:165; 5: 16 & 21; 17: 15).

SOURCE



Quote:
There are some moral standards that are universal in all cutures and religions. Those even those who have never had the opportunity of learning about Islam, will be responsible for not doing.
SOURCE



Quote:
We all will be punished for our misdeed and rewarded for our good deeds the rewards and punishments can occur in our life time, in the grave in the afterlife or in any combination.
yes indeed the Surah is general and says that everyone who does any good shall see it. However, we must understand this in light of how the companions of the Prophet understood it from the Prophet and in accordance with the rest of the Quranic verses, which state that the disbelievers will not be rewarded in the afterlife...

Allah then revealed the following verse about a group of people who thought that they are not rewarded for any small goodness they do nor punished for any small evil they commit, and so Allah urged them to do acts of goodness even if they are small and warned them against acts of evil even if they are small acts: (And whoso doeth good an atom’s weight) the weight of the smallest ant (will see it then) in his register and then will be happy with it; it is also said: the believer sees his works in the Hereafter while the disbeliever sees his works in the life of the world, (Tanwr al-Miqbs min Tafsr Ibn ‘Abbs, Commentary on Surah 99:7, Source)
Rebuttal to Jochen Katz's Article "Qur'an Contradiction: Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers?"

Allah will balance the good deeds a person has done in their life against the bad deeds.

And to every soul will be paid in full (the fruit) of its deeds; and Allah knoweth best all that they do.

Surah 39:70

If the good deeds outweigh the bad, the person will go to paradise (Jannah), a place of joy and bliss.

Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Surah 3:115

If the bad things outweigh the good, then the person will be punished in hell (Jahannam). When Allah is making a judgement, even a person’s intentions (niyyah) are taken into account.

Those who reject faith – neither t heir possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: they will be companions of the fire, dwelling therein for ever.

Surah 3:116

BBC - GCSE Bitesize: Islam and death

Quote:
While eternal punishment does exist, it is by our own choice it is what we earn. There are many factors involved that we have no way to understand, but we are told Allaah(swt) is all loving, will forgive all who repent, Punishes no more than what we have earned, yet rewards are many times more than what we deserve. The choices our ours, it is also our responsibility to know learn what our choices are, for that we have an obligation to learn to the best of our ability.
Our destiny is determined by our choices. Allah tells us in Surat Al-Layl that those who believe in goodness and choose to do righteous acts, such as being charitable, will have the path to goodness and Paradise made easy for them. Allah also tells us that those who reject belief in goodness and are miserly and arrogant will have the path to misery and Hell made easier for them.

Fate: Our Choice or Allah's? - Islamic Creed - counsels - OnIslam.net



Quote:
Rewards are given freely and abundantly. We have to work hard to earn punishments. they are not tossed at us willy-nilly. We have to know what will bring us punishment, but we do have a responsibility to do our best to learn what things will bring us punishments. Refusal to make a sincere attempt to learn, is tantamount to doing deliberately.
We are not forced into anything. For Allah to do so would not produce sincere faith in His servants. When we freely choose goodness over evil, it is obvious that we sincerely believe in it; otherwise we would not have chosen it. When we freely choose evil over good, the same is true; we reject good either because we are blind to it or because we are selfish and arrogant.


When Allah creates us, He is well aware of all the intentions we will have, all the choices we will make, and all the things that we will do in our lives before we do them. He chooses what He will allow us to do and what He will not according to His infinite wisdom, and then has it recorded as our destiny.


If our intention is to do good purely for Allah's sake, He knows it before we do and He makes the path towards it easy for us. He then rewards us for our faith and good choices. If our intention to do good is not solely for His sake, He also knows it before we do. He will reject it and punish us for our choices.


For those who choose selfishness and arrogance, Allah will allow them to make mischief, for reasons only He knows, and He will make their path to Hell easy for them. He will then have this recorded as their destiny.

Fate: Our Choice or Allah's? - Islamic Creed - counsels - OnIslam.net


Quote:
Everyone is ultimately responsible for their choices and are accountable for what we do of our own free will. It is not a threat it is a fact, bad choices result in pain. Even the simple act of crossing the road, if you choose to cross in front of a moving car, expect to experience severe pain.


Almighty Allah, clearly states that the punishments He inflicts are not cruel but just, since He has already warned His creatures and sent them guidance. He has clearly defined the two paths of piety and disobedience, just as He has defined the consequences of following each path. Man thus has total freedom to choose either path, remembering that if he opts for the path of disobedience, he will not have the excuse to offer Allah on the Day of Judgement.

SOURCE
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:03 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
Reputation: 435
You said:
"Islam is all about personal responsibility not being taught a specific set of dogma."

Let's define dogma again:
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.

OK, Now, what I notice in all your posts is that you do not think for yourself. You use sources from Islam. That's dogmatic.

Try reposting the above without referencing Islam....have it come all from your own mind. For example, you say: "Our destiny is determined by our choices." Then you tell us what allah says. You let allah do your thinking for you. That's dogma. You are following the principles of Islam dogmatically.

Try menstruation. YOU tell me: is it REALLY filthy and what harm does it do to touch a woman on her period. What do YOU really think, forgetting allah. Use your own ability to reason. Don't parrot the Quran, use your common sense and your own logic. Is menstruation from satan? What really will happen if you have sex with a woman who is menstruating and how do you know it? Use induction and deduction. THINK FOR YOURSELF!!

Morality. What are YOUR moral values, forgetting Islam, and WHY do you hold them? What good are they? How do they enhance you? What are they fundamentally based on and why? If your answer is Islam, that's pure dogma.

I often ask Muslims very basic questions about morality and there is no answer besides parroting something from Islam. They are unable to think independently. They can't reason. I ask them why humans need a moral code. No answer. That's so fundamental and their brains just can't go there. They have no ability to identify principles, either.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
SOURCE

12. The true Muslim believes that God does not hold any person responsible until He has shown him the Right Way. This is why God has sent many messengers and revelations, and has made it clear that there would be no punishment before giving guidance and sounding the alarm. So, a person who has never come across any Divine revelations or messenger, or a person who is insane is not held responsible to God for failing to obey the Divine instructions. Such a person will be responsible only for not doing what his sound common sense tells him to do. But the person who knowingly and intentionally violates the Law of God or deviates from His Right Path will be punished for his wrong deeds (4:165; 5: 16 & 21; 17: 15).

SOURCE

SOURCE

Fate: Our Choice or Allah's? - Islamic Creed - counsels - OnIslam.net


Almighty Allah, clearly states that the punishments He inflicts are not cruel but just, since He has already warned His creatures and sent them guidance. He has clearly defined the two paths of piety and disobedience, just as He has defined the consequences of following each path. Man thus has total freedom to choose either path, remembering that if he opts for the path of disobedience, he will not have the excuse to offer Allah on the Day of Judgement.

SOURCE
I find your presentation above very incomplete and is not representative of Allah's core and overriding intentions.
74:31 ... Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. ...
I recorded 70++ instances where Allah deliberately created infidels out of whom He will. There are verses where infidels and Muslims are given discretions as if they have freedom.
If the above are to stand, then these are contradictions in the Quran. Since Allah is all powerful, Allah's deliberating creating infidels should override any apparent freedom of infidels.

Quote:
12. The true Muslim believes that God does not hold any person responsible until
He has shown him the Right Way. This is why God has sent many messengers and
revelations, and has made it clear that there would be no punishment before
giving guidance and sounding the alarm. So, a person who has never come across
any Divine revelations or messenger, or a person who is insane is not held
responsible to God for failing to obey the Divine instructions. Such a person
will be responsible only for not doing what his sound common sense tells him to
do. But the person who knowingly and intentionally violates the Law of God or
deviates from His Right Path will be punished for his wrong deeds (4:165; 5: 16
& 21; 17: 15).
The above stated those who had not been warned of Allah's message will not be punished in hell. This is of no significance because the 90% of non-Muslim infidels which comprised of Jews, Christians and idolaters are definitely doomed and consigned to Hell to be burnt in eternal fire.
Those aborigines in the jungles may not have heard of the Quran but all of them are idolaters of one kind or another, i.e. ascribing partners other than Allah - an unforgivable sin.
Jews and Christians who attest to the existing Torah and Gospel are automatically labeled as infidels and enemies regardless of whether they have been warned by the Quran.
2:6. As for the disbelievers [Infidels], whether thou warn them [infidels] or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they [infidels] believe not.
The above verse play down the significance of those 'warning' verses.

All non-Muslims will be tortured in the more horrendous matter in hell and Allah has given sanction to kill, cast terror upon, and suppress non-Muslims on Earth within certain conditions which are vague and thus abused by SOME Muslims.[this is a reality].
Atheists are killed for merely not believing in Allah.
Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims are raped and evil heaved upon them.

Last edited by Continuum; 10-01-2015 at 12:58 AM..
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:03 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You said:
"Islam is all about personal responsibility not being taught a specific set of dogma."

Let's define dogma again:
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.

OK, Now, what I notice in all your posts is that you do not think for yourself. You use sources from Islam. That's dogmatic.

Try reposting the above without referencing Islam....have it come all from your own mind. For example, you say: "Our destiny is determined by our choices." Then you tell us what allah says. You let allah do your thinking for you. That's dogma. You are following the principles of Islam dogmatically.

Try menstruation. YOU tell me: is it REALLY filthy and what harm does it do to touch a woman on her period. What do YOU really think, forgetting allah. Use your own ability to reason. Don't parrot the Quran, use your common sense and your own logic. Is menstruation from satan? What really will happen if you have sex with a woman who is menstruating and how do you know it? Use induction and deduction. THINK FOR YOURSELF!!

Morality. What are YOUR moral values, forgetting Islam, and WHY do you hold them? What good are they? How do they enhance you? What are they fundamentally based on and why? If your answer is Islam, that's pure dogma.

I often ask Muslims very basic questions about morality and there is no answer besides parroting something from Islam. They are unable to think independently. They can't reason. I ask them why humans need a moral code. No answer. That's so fundamental and their brains just can't go there. They have no ability to identify principles, either.
I accepted Islam because I believed in those things. I did not begin to believe thm because I accepted Islam.

The belief was there before I even knew Most Muslims believed the same things.


During my years as a Christian I grew to doubt the validity of Original sin. In my concepts I believe each person is responsible for their own action. We are not accountable for the sins of others nor can our sins be forgiven by the actions of another person. Everything in all facets of life are our own individual personal responsibility. It just so happens those are things many (Not all, but many) Muslims also believe.



For my own personal beliefs my personal sources are not verifiable, they came from years of life experience.

But I can show through Islamic sources that many Muslims are in agreement with what I believe.



I could also show that many Muslims disagree with what I believe.


There are very few things that all Muslims believe in common. I can only think of one thing all Muslims probably believe and that is a non-physical creator of all things exists. Every other belief that can possibly exist will have have Muslims who believe them and those who don't.

There are only 6 identified beliefs that the majority of Muslims believe and only the first one is probably shared by all Muslims. The others you will find different levels of belief among individual Muslims.

Belief in Allah as the one and only God
Belief in angels
Belief in the holy books
Belief in the Prophets...
Belief in the Day of Judgement...
Belief that Allah is all Knowing...
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:46 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
Reputation: 435
"I accepted Islam because I believed in those things. I did not begin to believe thm because I accepted Islam."

So you already believed when you were an atheist that menstruation came from satan and was filthy and no woman should be touched when she was on her period?

You believed in allah when you were an atheist and thought that you and all other non-believers would be endlessly tortured? Wait, how can you be an atheist and believe that?

"Belief in Allah as the one and only God
Belief in angels
Belief in the holy books
Belief in the Prophets...
Belief in the Day of Judgement...
Belief that Allah is all Knowing..."

Which of these did you believe in when you were an atheist? You have claimed before that you used to think like I do before accepting Islam (which I seem to remember happened rather suddenly). I don't have a belief in any of these things. Nor could you if you were an atheist. Seriously, you make NO sense.

Look, the point is, religion is dogma and that includes Islam and you are dogmatic.

"There are very few things that all Muslims believe in common."

I have talked to over 2,500 Muslims and I find they hold MANY common beliefs.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I accepted Islam because I believed in those things. I did not begin to believe thm because I accepted Islam."

So you already believed when you were an atheist that menstruation came from satan and was filthy and no woman should be touched when she was on her period?

You believed in allah when you were an atheist and thought that you and all other non-believers would be endlessly tortured? Wait, how can you be an atheist and believe that?

"Belief in Allah as the one and only God
Belief in angels
Belief in the holy books
Belief in the Prophets...
Belief in the Day of Judgement...
Belief that Allah is all Knowing..."

Which of these did you believe in when you were an atheist? You have claimed before that you used to think like I do before accepting Islam (which I seem to remember happened rather suddenly). I don't have a belief in any of these things. Nor could you if you were an atheist. Seriously, you make NO sense.

Look, the point is, religion is dogma and that includes Islam and you are dogmatic.

"There are very few things that all Muslims believe in common."

I have talked to over 2,500 Muslims and I find they hold MANY common beliefs.
My acceptance of the 6 fundemental beliefs came slowly. Actually the only one I sincerly belief is the existence of Allaah(swt) which came suddenly and resulted in my acceptance of Islam. They other 5 beliefs I do not claim to believe in firmly and basically accept them as possibilities.

Atheists hold many common beliefs. Many of the Atheists I know belief the following



1. Atheist believe there are no gods

2. Atheists believe Death is final with no after life

3. Atheists believe proof has to be verifiable

4. Atheists believe faith is the result of manipulation without facts


The point being, because many people of a group believe something, does not mean it is dogma.

Of the 2,500 Muslims you spoke to how many were in each of the following groups

1. NOI
2. Sunni that were Qur'an only
3. Sunni that were Hanafi
4. Sunni that were Maliki
5. Sunni that were Hanbali
6. Sunni that were Shafi'i
7. Shi'ite that were Qur'an only
8. Shi'ite that were Jafa'ari
9. Shi'ite that were 12ers
10.Shi'ite that were Ismaili
11. Sufi
12. Ahmadyyah
13. Wahhabi
14. Messianic Muslims--(Yes they exist see HERE)

There are considerable differences in beliefs and practices in each group. While the adherents within a group will share many beliefs, those same beliefs are not shared from group to group.

I will venture to say that your concept of a Muslim differs considerably from my concept and we will both differ from what the NOI concept.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:31 AM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,159,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffy1 View Post
What do you think about the muslim marriage crisis? It is not as publicized as others. According to research, New York City has too many educated,beautiful women making it impossible for women to find good partners. The majority of colleges in the US are predominantly women making it very difficult for women to find anyone so nationally it is a problem. This is happening in many countries not just the US. Apparently, Orthodox Jewish women in New York city and Mormons in Utah also have this issue.

How are muslims addressing the issue when men and women are separated? People also think a women is desparate if she says she wants a husband. Relatives and friends don't help because they want to "save" the good guys for their daughters. Also, most muslim men want a young hijabi girl from overseas leaving women in the west with too few options.

For muslim women over 35 it is impossible!

Some Islamic countries are tackling this by ensuring the girls don't get educated (at least not past an extremely basic level). That helps, then they'll follow any halfwit like sheep. Knowledge is power, so prevent them getting knowledge seems to be the mantra.
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Some Islamic countries are tackling this by ensuring the girls don't get educated (at least not past an extremely basic level). That helps, then they'll follow any halfwit like sheep. Knowledge is power, so prevent them getting knowledge seems to be the mantra.
Those same countries are dictatorships run by evil people misusing Islam. those same nations also forbid women from going to the Mosque and from reading the Qur'an, so they do not learn their rights in Islam
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