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Old 09-25-2015, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
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My wife and I had a hard time even breathing to see the carnage of the stampede of pilgrims attempting to position themselves around Ka'bah Stone. I wish our lukewarm christians can learn from real dedication and faith!!! These people who died from the crane accident and stampede were simply filled with joy, fatigue, optimism , traveling many miles just to circle their shrine 7 times at least once in life . Our hearts go out to our Muslim brothers and sisters not withstanding children. Even with thousands of security assigned the massive crowds shift like a tsunami of humans unable to avoid those fallen. Makes me very sad.
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Old 09-25-2015, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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My condolence to the families and friends of all those who had passed away.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-25-2015 at 09:12 PM..
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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From a rational perspective and in the spirit of preventing further such incidents wherever it may happen, there are objective approaches to such problems by studying and taking preventive measures at the level of the root causes, e.g.;

1. Installing a 'zero defect' and fool-proof crowd control system.

2. Understanding why there is no need for such massive pilgrimages, e.g. Mecca, Kumb Mela, etc.
Kumbh Mela is a mass Hindu pilgrimage of faith in which Hindus gather to bathe in a sacred river. It is considered to be the largest peaceful gathering in the world where around 100 million people were expected to visit during the Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013 in Allahabad. -wiki

3. It is a tragedy and irony that if an omnipotent, omniscient God exists, such a God did nothing to prevent such a massive catastrophe. [anticipate theists will give all sort of excuses for this].
The final conclusion is all the above pilgrimages as dictated by God are actually human-made and can be nullified, weaned off or scaled down to the minimum.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-25-2015 at 10:04 PM..
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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This article is one of the best explanations of the cause of the Stampede I have seen

A brief excerpt

After one in 2006, Saudi authorities instituted single-direction pathways, visitor counts, and theme park-like scheduling of visits. The Jamarat Bridge, location of three pillars that represent the devil, at which pilgrims are supposed to throw stones, was the site of a stampede that killed over 1,000 people; today it’s a multi-level, multi-exit complex designed to keep people moving. In the past decade or so, the Saudi government has worked with a wide variety of architects and designers, including the famed international firm Gensler, to improve flow and safety at all of the hajj’s major sites, from the central mosque to the tent city.

Put that many people in so confined a space, though, and preventing stampedes will always be a challenge. Part of the problem is fluid dynamics—except people are the fluid.

The Hajj Stampede Is a Fluid Dynamics Problem | WIRED
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From a rational perspective and in the spirit of preventing further such incidents wherever it may happen, there are objective approaches to such problems by studying and taking preventive measures at the level of the root causes, e.g.;

1. Installing a 'zero defect' and fool-proof crowd control system.

2. Understanding why there is no need for such massive pilgrimages, e.g. Mecca, Kumb Mela, etc.
Kumbh Mela is a mass Hindu pilgrimage of faith in which Hindus gather to bathe in a sacred river. It is considered to be the largest peaceful gathering in the world where around 100 million people were expected to visit during the Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013 in Allahabad. -wiki

3. It is a tragedy and irony that if an omnipotent, omniscient God exists, such a God did nothing to prevent such a massive catastrophe. [anticipate theists will give all sort of excuses for this].
The final conclusion is all the above pilgrimages as dictated by God are actually human-man and can be nullified, weaned off or scaled down to the minimum.
There are only 5 things all Muslims are commanded to do. One of them being to perform the Hajj at least once if physically and financially able. Many Muslims save for their entire life to make the Hajj. Hajj takes place only once a year and takes 6 days to complete. Right now about 3 million make the hajj each years. The Saudi government allows only .1 percent (point one percent, one tenth of one percent) of the Muslim population to enter Mecca each year for Hajj. At that rate it will take 1,000 years for every Muslim living today to make the Hajj. Needless to say the vast majority of Muslims will never make the Hajj.

there have been similar stampedes in the past. Saudi has taken steps every year to prevent a repeat, but each year the number of pilgrims increase as the Muslim population grows. This years tragedy could have been prevented if peole had followed instructions

Quote:
Health Minister Khaled al-Falih was quoted by El-Ekhbariya television as saying “many pilgrims move without respecting the timetables” established by authorities, which was the “principal reason for this type of accident.“
“If the pilgrims had followed instructions, this type of accident could have been avoided. “
.

At least 717 killed, 863 injured in Haj stampede at Mina - Pakistan - DAWN.COM



The most important factor is the pilgrims need to adhere closely to the timetable alloted for each stop in order to prevent a massive backlog at the stoning of the 3 pillars. If this is not accomplished, they have not performed Hajj. So if some people lag behind it reaches a point that many will not be able to complete Hajj.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This article is one of the best explanations of the cause of the Stampede I have seen ..

The Hajj Stampede Is a Fluid Dynamics Problem | WIRED
I wonder you really accept his basis to the ultimate, i.e.
It wasn’t the first time something like this has happened during the hajj, and just as before, the causes remain the same: physics and evolutionary psychology.
There are many other theories that can be brought in to prevent the stampede, .e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

It is from evolutionary psychology and other related theories that we can review why 700++ deaths merely to throw stones at a wall. It is really necessary in the first place or are there better alternatives. From a humanity perspective that is not rational and I believe that is avoidable.

I believe the Saudi may have some kind of system to prevent the stampede but their execution is not efficient. What they need is a fool-proof, idiot-proof system, e.g. Poka-Yoke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke

Btw, other than a recommended proposition to visit and pray at the Kaaba, there is no such requirement in the Quran that it is obligatory for any Muslim to perform such an act [ritual] of throwing stones at a wall.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-25-2015 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
there have been similar stampedes in the past. Saudi has taken steps every year to prevent a repeat, but each year the number of pilgrims increase as the Muslim population grows. This years tragedy could have been prevented if peole had followed instructions.

At least 717 killed, 863 injured in Haj stampede at Mina - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Quote:
Health Minister Khaled al-Falih was quoted by El-Ekhbariya television as
saying “many pilgrims move without respecting the timetables” established by
authorities, which was the “principal reason for this type of accident.“

“If the pilgrims had followed instructions, this type of accident could have
been avoided. “
The most important factor is the pilgrims need to adhere closely to the timetable alloted for each stop in order to prevent a massive backlog at the stoning of the 3 pillars. If this is not accomplished, they have not performed Hajj. So if some people lag behind it reaches a point that many will not be able to complete Hajj.
This is the most irresponsible kind of statement which is usually used by leaders to deflect their own incompetence.

If I am in charge I will ensure I implement the following;
What they need is a fool-proof, idiot-proof system, e.g. Poka-Yoke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke
This system will not fail even if there are fools and idiots acting within it.
Even if it failed, at the worst, casualties will be very minimal.

Re the Normal Curve, there will always be a percentile of humans [fallible] who will not be able to comply fully due to their inherent nature, nurture and various reasons.
Therefore it is the duty of the leader to acknowledge this fact of human nature and manage it efficiently.

This is the same principle I am pointing out in the Quran with its large percentile of evil laden verses triggering a small percentile of evil prone believers into committing VERY significant evils and violence around the world.
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,126,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is the most irresponsible kind of statement which is usually used by leaders to deflect their own incompetence.

If I am in charge I will ensure I implement the following;
What they need is a fool-proof, idiot-proof system, e.g. Poka-Yoke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke
This system will not fail even if there are fools and idiots acting within it.
Even if it failed, at the worst, casualties will be very minimal.

Re the Normal Curve, there will always be a percentile of humans [fallible] who will not be able to comply fully due to their inherent nature, nurture and various reasons.
Therefore it is the duty of the leader to acknowledge this fact of human nature and manage it efficiently.

This is the same principle I am pointing out in the Quran with its large percentile of evil laden verses triggering a small percentile of evil prone believers into committing VERY significant evils and violence around the world.
Saudi Arabia expected to much from people to act in a civil manner and follow instructions. Israel knows this when it comes to parts of each year when 10,000s of people head for Jerusalem. Israel puts in physical barriers to stop the flow of people at multiple points so that congested area are allowed to clear up before letting the flow start up again. Depending on how much time is needed to clear up the congestion it may be minutes and it may be hours. Israel takes the negative hit for doing this nearly every year when it comes to people since Israeli police control the flow, but Jordanian security near the temple mount take their time to clear up the congestion at the area near and around the Temple Mount area. But in the end no one dies in these events.
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Hajj stampede: Saudi Arabia's religious leader says authorities not at fault because 'fate and destiny are inevitable' | Middle East | News | The Independent

With the above sort of deflection from claiming responsibility and 'blaming' God, it is likely the people responsible will not strive for the highest possible standards. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Defects
They may be able to prevent a repeat of similar causes but will not be able to anticipate other possible causes.



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Old 09-27-2015, 03:39 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Saudi Arabia expected to much from people to act in a civil manner and follow instructions. Israel knows this when it comes to parts of each year when 10,000s of people head for Jerusalem. Israel puts in physical barriers to stop the flow of people at multiple points so that congested area are allowed to clear up before letting the flow start up again. Depending on how much time is needed to clear up the congestion it may be minutes and it may be hours. Israel takes the negative hit for doing this nearly every year when it comes to people since Israeli police control the flow, but Jordanian security near the temple mount take their time to clear up the congestion at the area near and around the Temple Mount area. But in the end no one dies in these events.
What i don't understand is how this could happen.
There's roads for people who come and others for people who come back from the Jamarat.

But it's true that some people don't act in a civil manner, plus for some it's probably the first time they travel.
Among those who are the more preparated are the malaysians but many people aren't prepared or they can't read so they don't understand some instructions.

In Mecca they say there's around 2 millions pilgrims but it's not true, there's a lot of people who come illegally to do the hajj. Some said they were 3 or 4 millions !

Anyway, Allah yarhamhom.
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