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Old 10-04-2015, 07:26 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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I am trying to make sense of what you are saying.

"My answer is yes, if the person is aware that Allaah(exists, They agree Islam is the proper way to submit and they know that refusal to submit will result in eternal punishment."

The Quran says:

Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.

Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, thou wilt notice a denial on the faces of the Unbelievers! they nearly attack with violence those who rehearse Our Signs to them. Say, "Shall I tell you of something (far) worse than these Signs? It is the Fire (of Hell)! Allah has promised it to the Unbelievers! and evil is that destination!"

Unbeliever: one that does not believe in a particular religious faith
one that does not believe : an incredulous person : doubter, skeptic


So, do you disagree with allah here and think allah is wrong??? These unbelievers doubt allah exists, certainly do not agree that Islam is the proper way to submit and I'm sure they were told that allah was going to burn them in hellfire for all eternity.

According to allah, he's going to burn these unbelievers to a crisp and then burn them again. Horrible pain and all that. So do you disagree with allah and think he's bad to do that to unbelievers? Remember you said this: "My answer is no, if the person has no reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists, They have found no reason to submit to a being they believe does not exist and they have found no reason to believe there is an eternal after life after the death of our physical body."

The unbelievers obviously found no reason to believe allah exists, they find islam to be bad and reject it, they may believe in life after death, but not with your god. Yest allah is going to horrible torture them.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
...............snip.............

According to allah, he's going to burn these unbelievers to a crisp and then burn them again. Horrible pain and all that. So do you disagree with allah and think he's bad to do that to unbelievers? Remember you said this: "My answer is no, if the person has no reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists, They have found no reason to submit to a being they believe does not exist and they have found no reason to believe there is an eternal after life after the death of our physical body."

The unbelievers obviously found no reason to believe allah exists, they find islam to be bad and reject it, they may believe in life after death, but not with your god. Yest allah is going to horrible torture them.
No I am not disagreeing with Allaah(swt) I am simply pointing out what I believe His message is.


Quote:

Praise be to Allaah.

It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

In his tafseer (commentary) on this aayah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “These words, ‘…And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)’ tell us of the justice of Allaah, may He be exalted, and that He does not punish anyone until after He has established evidence against him by sending a Messenger to him. This is like the aayat (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8] and: ‘And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of its prisoners). And its keepers will say, “Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, - reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” They will say: “Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!”’ [al-Zumar 39:71]…”

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves.

The fate of kuffaar who did not hear the message of Islam - islamqa.info
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
"No I am not disagreeing with Allaah(swt) I am simply pointing out what I believe His message is."

Check your premise. It's pretty clear in the Quran that allah is sending unbelievers to hell, so your claim that he isn't is false.

From your quote:
"Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. "

Let's compare that to your statement:
"My answer is yes, if the person is aware that Allaah(exists, They agree Islam is the proper way to submit and they know that refusal to submit will result in eternal punishment."

Do you see the blaring differences?

I am aghast that Muslims are OK with allah torturing BILLIONS of people's souls endlessly and horribly and painfully just because they won't submit to his nastiness/refuse to believe such a supernatural monster exists.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not find yes or no to be appropriate answers.

As it is not a Yes or No question. Qualifying conditions will justify either answer.

My answer is yes, if the person is aware that Allaah(exists, They agree Islam is the proper way to submit and they know that refusal to submit will result in eternal punishment.
This is something [not exactly] like the controversy over capital punishment which from a universal moral standpoint is immoral for any human [individually or collectively] to take the life of another.

From the perspective of the Quran; Earth and the hereafter [heaven and hell] are literally real. Therefore the cruelty and violence [>500 verses] of various degrees that are to be executed by Allah in the Hereafter are very real.

Regardless of the circumstances, God's warning, threatening and executing those very horrific acts of cruelty and violence in the hereafter as real is deemed immoral by any universal moral standard.

Therefore your answer 'yes' reflect your very low moral conscience. I don't think as a human being you will agree with 'yes.' But as a Muslim [and giving up your human_ness] you have no choice but to accept [within an obligation of the covenant with Allah] whatever is stated in the Quran, even it is hateful to you as a human being.

Btw, it is not only that Allah will punish the infidels severely in Hell but also in this life in the World and give sanction to Muslims to punish non-Muslims.

What is worst is the evil laden verses of cruelty and violence in this world and in the Hereafter subliminally influence SOME Muslims to act them out on Earth. If Allah view these infidels like pieces of 'sh:t' SOME who are prone to 'follow the leader' will carry out those cruelty and violence.

My answer is no, if the person has no reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists, They have found no reason to submit to a being they believe does not exist and they have found no reason to believe there is an eternal after life after the death of our physical body.

If a person does not believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) or in an eternal life for all or us, I doubt they can be said to understand the Qur'an or the teachings of Muhammad(saws)

In order to reject Allaah(swt) and refuse to accept heaven, a person must first believe He exists and they make a conscious free will effort to deliberately reject His existence. Just my opinion and you will find other Muslims have different opinions.[/quote]You are pulling a fast one here.
Most of the infidels of old asked their messengers to prove Allah exists.
Because the messengers could not prove Allah exists, they disbelieved.
2:55. And when ye [infidels] said: O Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly; and even while ye [infidels] gazed the lightning seized you.
Then it follows;
2:81. Nay, but whosoever [infidels] hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they [infidels] will abide therein
Therefrom the infidels are subject to hundreds of verses condemning them to be burnt in the Fire in the most horrific manner. This is a warning and since the hereafter is literally real, Allah would have executed the millions infidels of old ever since. The sad part is Allah is doing it with a feeling of glee, victory of vengeance and extreme happiness.
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