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Old 10-05-2015, 08:50 PM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461


Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is true there is a covenant between all of mankind and Allaah(swt) that being

That covenant applies to all people even non-believers that do not abide by it.
You are deflecting and trying to change the subject here, note 16:91 -the central point of the OP.
16:91. Fulfill the covenant of Allah when ye [Muslims] have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them [the oaths], and after ye [Muslim] have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.
16:91 is addressed to Muslims not non-Muslims. It refers to the agreement between Allah and a Muslim.
The covenant mentioned in 16:91 is not applicable to non-Muslims and definitely not to agreements between Muslims and non-Muslims.
Do you dispute this?

In surah 16 in discourse 5 which is ayyats 88-128 what is being told is the attitude a Muslim must take when being persecuted. 88-102 are quite explicit in the requirement we are to abide by all contracts and oaths we make with non-Muslims and all people in general.
I have read Chapter 16 many times and there is no specific indications of your interpretation, i.e. 'the attitude a Muslim must take' when being persecuted as in 2:191 where 'persecution' is specifically mentioned.

'Explicit' ?? read 16:91 again and what is explicit is the Principles of the covenant between Allah and a Muslim and nothing else.

16:88-128 contain a variety of points and principles.

16:91-96 is an exposition [a explanation of everything as in 12:111] of the Principles of the Covenant between Allah and a Muslim.

16:97 is 'fair reward to male and female in heaven
16:98-100 recite Quran to seek refuge from Satan
16:101 re Abrogation
16:102 Quran revealed via Holy Spirit - Gabriel
16:103 Infidels countered Quran was man-made
16:104-128 - as so on - and has nothing to do with persecution.

One can veer off into sins if one interpret wrongly.

Do you dispute the above?
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:26 PM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This is a good example of an Arabic word that can not be translated into English.
The word being translated to covenant is Aahdi
and you are correct it is not exactly the same as the English concept of covenant.
In the English sense it is only a conenant if all parties agree to it.

In the Arabic it is an Aahdi even if you are unaware of it or disagree with it.
Sort of like the US constitution. If you are an American citizen you are bound by the US constitution even if you disagree with it. Yet, the US constitution is/was considered to be a covenant

Seeing the Constitution as Covenant

By Lynn D. Wardle

If you read the covenant [Aahdi] in the full context of the Quran, it is definitely an agreement where both parties [Allah & Muslim] agree to the terms and conditions and promise to fulfill them. e.g. promises of Allah. Here is a sample of verses and note there are many such verses. [mine]
3:194. Our Lord! And give us [Muslims] that which Thou hast promised to us by Thy messengers. Confound [disgrace, shame] us [Muslims] not upon the Day of Resurrection. Lo! Thou [Muslims] breakest not the tryst.

4:122. But as for those [Muslims] who believe and do good works We shall bring them into gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. It is a promise from Allah in truth ; and who can be more truthful than Allah in utterance?

14:47. So think not that Allah will fail to keep His promise to His messengers. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong) [the infidels].

From the full context of the Quran, there is definitely a covenant between Allah and a Muslim. There are verses where Allah expressed His obligation to fulfill his promises [I don't have the verses on hand].

US Constitution:
Yes, you do not seem to understand how the US Constitution or Constitution of any Nation work.
The Constitution is a covenant or agreement that is agreed by two parties, i.e. the Government and the Citizen.
There are two types of agreements or contracts involved;
1. Explicit
2. Implied or automatic

1. Explicit
If an 'alien' [a non-citizen] want to be a citizen of the US, s/he definitely has to enter into a covenant [via official procedures] with the US Government in accordance to the terms and conditions of the Constitution.

2. Implied or automatic
This is applicable to children who are born to US citizens thus are automatically deemed as citizens and therefore there exists an implied covenant between them and the US Government.

Obviously all parties are bound by the terms and conditions even if they do not like or detest some terms but is it implied they 'agree' with it when they entered/agreed into the agreement. It is the same with an employment contract where a employee do not agree to all the terms but sign it because the overall contract is net-positive.

However in both cases, the agreement provide terms and procedures for either party to terminate the agreement, i.e. covenant or 'contract'. One can denounce one's citizenship anytime by complying to the terms of termination of the agreement.

Your US Constitution analogy is invalid to explain Aahdi.

Having read the Quran full time for many months currently, I dare assert the term 'Aahdi' in the context of the whole Quran represent a spiritual/religious agreement/covenant/contract between Allah and a Muslim.

The Quran in its various verses [12:111 a detailed explanation] is very clear on this covenant between Allah and a Muslim.
Now at the lowest and basic there should be at least a 'gentlemen' agreement and for any party to break its' obligation is very immoral.
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Old 10-08-2015, 02:51 AM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Here is a verse [mine] that indicate Allah has an obligation to fulfill his part of the covenant or spiritual contract.
10:103. Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers [Muslims], in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent [an obligation] upon Us [Allah] to save believers [Muslims].

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Old 10-08-2015, 04:22 AM
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,737,886 times
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A Covenant with Allah is the same as the Covenants their Ancestors had with El and his angels (whom the priests described as venerable children instead of as slaves) or the "Constitution-like Covenant" they had with Zeus who beat his own sadly turned senile, evil, and egotistical Creator (His Titan Father) down and put him in Jail, like the deluded Diva he was.
Revolution is how you change constitutions, the followers of Abraham know the evil and pain that huge parts of they have to live through and manifest because of evil pacts to deny seeking full understanding.
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