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Old 10-06-2015, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Should also be noted Homosexual act are virtually impossible to prove, unless the individuals are blatantly doing them publicly.
Virtually impossible? What world is that?
Note videos, photos, accused with 4 witnesses, forensic evidences, etc.
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Old 10-07-2015, 04:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my argument above on how the followers of ISIS justify their violence on homosexuals. Do you have an argument against that. In addition, on Judgment Day,
On J-Day, the followers of ISIS will inform God [Allah will know in the Iliyin [illiyun they did not follow this Madhab's verse because they believe it is not the words of Allah as it is not stated in the Quran and claimed that such a word was added by man and is a corruption.
Since on J-Day the final arbiter is Allah, I think the followers of ISIS will gain Allah's favor despite not following the above Madhab.

Isis killed a man with fire (the jordanian pilot) while it's forbidden in Islam.

They also use torture which is also forbidden in Islam.

For what i've understand people accuse other to be gay. But that's not enought to just accuse them.


Ps : note that i absolutely don't reconize Isis a legitime. And as they are killers an thiefs among others things they are in worst position than gay people.

According to Islam if you accuse someone you need to proove it or it can be a sin :

24.13 Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah.

We can't spy on others :

49.12 O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion; for lo! some suspicion is a crime. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Ye abhor that (so abhor the other)! And keep your duty (to Allah). Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful.

We shouldn't accuse without beeing sure :

4.135 O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.


And here are the worst sins in Islam (among a list of 70 which are the worst)
Look were is ranked homosexuality compared to murder :

1. Associating partners with Allah (1 of 7 fatal Sins)

2. Committing murder (2 of 7 fatal Sins)

3. Practising black magic. This even takes one out of the folds of Islam

4. Not performing the Prayers

5. With holding the Zakah (Charity )

6. Not fasting on a Day of Ramadan without excuse

7. Not performing Hajj, while being able to do so (above tradition)

8. Disobeying and Disrespect to parents

9. Cutting off the ties of relationships

10. Committing adultery or fornication

11. Committing sodomy

Deenislam.co.uk - Sufism

Other lists to compare : The Major Sins in Islam
Islamic Thinkers Society - The 70 Major Sins in Islam
Major Sins In Islam

Note that some muslims don't pray and/or don't pay zakat or fast etc. And this is ranked worst than homosexuality.
Then why homosexuals are to be more punished than others ? And based on rumors or spying without what Allah asked (4 witnesses) ?

So on J-D Isis will have to answer to the killing of innocent people (2nd worst sin) and people who were killed for adultery, homosexuality etc without proofs. Among other sins they did.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Virtually impossible? What world is that?
Note videos, photos, accused with 4 witnesses, forensic evidences, etc.
Being Homosexual is not a crime. Committing any sex act outside of marriage is. To prove an illegal sex act occured requires the eye witness account of the act by 4 Muslim witnesses each considered trust worthy by the community (Pictures, videos, forensic evidence are not considered proof)

Each of the 4 witnesses must see the exact same sex act at the same time and describe the full act in the minutest detail.

If there is any discrepancy in the 4 testimonies their is no proof and the accused is to beset free. The 4 witnesses may be charged with giving false testimony, which is punishable by death.

It is virtually impossible to prove a homosexual sex act occurred under Sharia Law. Not likely there would be 4 eye witnesses watching it and if there are is is not likely they will testify. Especially since if the account of even one witness differs even slightly, the 4 witnesses will face the death penalty.

Yes, homosexual acts are illegal under Sharia, but the conditions are set to make it virtually impossible to prove.

the law is not intended to punish, the goal is to discourage the act
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Old 10-07-2015, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Being Homosexual is not a crime. Committing any sex act outside of marriage is. To prove an illegal sex act occured requires the eye witness account of the act by 4 Muslim witnesses each considered trust worthy by the community (Pictures, videos, forensic evidence are not considered proof)

Each of the 4 witnesses must see the exact same sex act at the same time and describe the full act in the minutest detail.

If there is any discrepancy in the 4 testimonies their is no proof and the accused is to beset free. The 4 witnesses may be charged with giving false testimony, which is punishable by death.

It is virtually impossible to prove a homosexual sex act occurred under Sharia Law. Not likely there would be 4 eye witnesses watching it and if there are is is not likely they will testify. Especially since if the account of even one witness differs even slightly, the 4 witnesses will face the death penalty.

Yes, homosexual acts are illegal under Sharia, but the conditions are set to make it virtually impossible to prove.

the law is not intended to punish, the goal is to discourage the act
If pictures, videos, forensic evidence [authenticated by experts] are not considered proof, then the related Sharia Law is a very inferior Law by normal human standards.
By any normal standards in our modern era and as human beings, testimony by witnesses must be supported by objective proofs such as pictures, videos, forensic evidence authenticated by experts.

From the low standard Sharia perspective of requiring 4 witnesses, I don't agree it is virtually impossible to prove. Obviously in such a circumstance no homosexuals would perform their 'illegal' acts in public.
However the religious authorities and other interested parties can easily get 4 or more witnesses to spy [peep] their acts in various ways.
In addition a total reliance of 4 witnesses is open to abuse where any 4 persons can plan and plot/scheme together to present fake evidences to accuse homosexuals in their acts.

To reject pictures, videos, forensic evidence [authenticated by experts] but accept only 4 human witness is very bad justice. Ironically when normal humans critique such injustices they are labeled as Islamophobes.
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If pictures, videos, forensic evidence [authenticated by experts] are not considered proof, then the related Sharia Law is a very inferior Law by normal human standards.
By any normal standards in our modern era and as human beings, testimony by witnesses must be supported by objective proofs such as pictures, videos, forensic evidence authenticated by experts.

From the low standard Sharia perspective of requiring 4 witnesses, I don't agree it is virtually impossible to prove. Obviously in such a circumstance no homosexuals would perform their 'illegal' acts in public.
However the religious authorities and other interested parties can easily get 4 or more witnesses to spy [peep] their acts in various ways.
In addition a total reliance of 4 witnesses is open to abuse where any 4 persons can plan and plot/scheme together to present fake evidences to accuse homosexuals in their acts.

To reject pictures, videos, forensic evidence [authenticated by experts] but accept only 4 human witness is very bad justice. Ironically when normal humans critique such injustices they are labeled as Islamophobes.
We are forbidden to spy upon people.

Shatia law, not wahhabi or Jafari'i which are portrayed in the media as Sharia, does not have the goal to punish. the goal is prevention and if one does commit a crime the goal is restitution.

Only 5 Hadd crimes call for punishment

1. Highway Robbery
2. Theft
3. Improper sexual acts
4. False accusation
5. Drinking alcohol

However since the punishments are so harsh the required proof is almost impossible to prove. But, if a person is guilty they may plead guilty and avoid eternal punishment in the hereafter.

Nearly every Islamic nation has rejected Sharia Criminal law and use secular law for criminal cases. There is no requirement for any nation to use Sharia criminal law. However all Muslims are to abide by Sharia civil, family, and religious law by religious law that is such things as prayer times, the method of doing salat, how to perform Hajj etc. all aspects of mandatory worship.
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Old 10-08-2015, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Isis killed a man with fire (the jordanian pilot) while it's forbidden in Islam.
They also use torture which is also forbidden in Islam.
Where in the Quran does it say that is forbidden.
If the above is based on the Hadiths, there is no central authority to decide. Thus only God will decide ultimately.
Since God can only decide, the best act is the one that is as close to the Quran, i.e. God's words and not man's word in the Hadiths.

The ISIS and Taliban bombed statutes and destroy the priceless antiquities and historical evidence of humanity. This is a crime against humanity. I don't believe in God but if there is really a God as spoken in the Quran surely such God will reward these jihadists because God hate idols [great sin 1 of 7] and there are many verses where Allah destroy idols. While these jihadists will be punished for war crimes, Allah will reward them more than other Muslims.
These jihadists will be recognized as good and truer Muslims.
Do you agree?

The Jordanian pilot is killed by fire. Allah punished infidels with fire in the Quran. There are many verses where infidels are burned by Allah in this world and in Hell in the most terrible manner. So if the jihadists are doing what God had been doing [led by example] how can they be wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah. If you condemned them for burning the pilot, you may be going against God's expectations.
I am sure there could be Hadiths that condone such an act of burning infidels, hypocrites, and traitors but as long as they conform with the Quran, it should be valid for God.
Again there is no central authority to decide on this and it will be left to God to judge of J-Day.
Do you agree?

Quote:
For what i've understand people accuse other to be gay. But that's not enought
to just accuse them.
The big problem is the condemnation and destruction of humans in associated with homosexuality is made immutable in the Quran, i.e. words of God.
Some zealous Muslims will try to be as close as possible to God and be influenced by God's anger with homosexuality and deemed it as a threat.
If only 1% are angry and wanting to kill homosexuals there would be 15 million of such angry Muslims having the potential to do the killing. This is already a reality where suspected homosexuals are killed by Muslims.
In the first place, such elements of homosexuality should not have appeared in any holy texts and especially if the holy texts is immutable.

Quote:
We can't spy on others :

49.12 O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion; for lo! some suspicion is a crime. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Ye abhor that (so abhor the other)! And keep your duty (to Allah). Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful.
I believe this 'spying' is related to personal matters but not necessary to matters where there is threat to the religion or in wars with infidels. There are many verses where Allah 'spy' on the infidels on matters that are a threat to the religion.

Quote:
We shouldn't accuse without beeing sure :

4.135 O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.
This is not relating to accusation but where one has to do any judging in the world.


Quote:
Note that some muslims don't pray and/or don't pay zakat or fast etc. And this is ranked worst than homosexuality.
Then why homosexuals are to be more punished than others ? And based on rumors or spying without what Allah asked (4 witnesses)?

So on J-D Isis will have to answer to the killing of innocent people (2nd worst sin) and people who were killed for adultery, homosexuality etc without proofs. Among other sins they did.
No one can be sure what will happen till J-Day [if there is really such a thing.]
I believe as long as a Muslim [jihadist or any Muslim] can justify what they are doing are in accordance and/or as close as possible to God's words, they will be viewed positively by God and rewarded accordingly. So how can they be wrong if what they do is in accordance to the Book.

As one can see the jihadists [their scholars or followers] are very pious as seen from their dressing and behaviors. There is no way they would dare to act from their own thinking. They will definitely try to stick as close to what is dictated in the Quran or Hadiths.
There may be those who are purely evil and non-religious at all but join ISIS to take the opportunity to do evil. I don't think there are many as if these hypocrites are found, they will be killed as condoned in the Quran.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where in the Quran does it say that is forbidden.
If the above is based on the Hadiths, there is no central authority to decide. Thus only God will decide ultimately.
Since God can only decide, the best act is the one that is as close to the Quran, i.e. God's words and not man's word in the Hadiths.
1. Again, i'm sunni so i use both Quran+sunna

2. Isis are not Quranist, they also use hadiths so they are supposed to know that (of course we may disagree about the understanding or the authenticity of some hadiths but that's an other subject)


So just that you know in Islam fire is forbidden -like tattooes, plastic surgery (except for accidents etc), mutilations etc- . And in the world (like or not) the majority of muslims are sunnis or shia not Quranists.

And no, there no verses about the tatooes in Quran nor plastic surgery (even if there's a verse that we can interpret that way). But do you really think you'll find an Isis member authorizing tattoes or plastic surgery centers in they "State" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The ISIS and Taliban bombed statutes and destroy the priceless antiquities and historical evidence of humanity. This is a crime against humanity. I don't believe in God but if there is really a God as spoken in the Quran surely such God will reward these jihadists because God hate idols [great sin 1 of 7] and there are many verses where Allah destroy idols. While these jihadists will be punished for war crimes, Allah will reward them more than other Muslims.
These jihadists will be recognized as good and truer Muslims.
Do you agree?
Well, the "idols" are not worshipped anymore, they are part of history.
If someone go to a museum or to see some antiquities he will not start to worship the statues.
If it would be the case then why the first caliphs (or the muslims who came after like the Fatimides, Ottomans etc) didn't destroyed their statues ?
The greatest exemple is Egypt.

But like you have see ISIS destroys the statues in Irak & Syria.
Why the caliphs didn't destroyed sooner those idoles then ? Syria and Irak were muslim lands sooner after the death of the Prophet (saw).
Why we have had to wait 1400 years ? This should have be done by the first muslims if it was right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Jordanian pilot is killed by fire. Allah punished infidels with fire in the Quran. There are many verses where infidels are burned by Allah in this world and in Hell in the most terrible manner.

Exactly.
That's what is said in the hadiths : the fire is how ALLAH punishs people. Not us, humans.


“No one may punish using fire other than the Lord of the Fire (Allah).”

“Do not punish with the punishment of Allah!”


Hadeeth Study: Only Allaah Punishes With Fire | Bakkah.net

Have you ever seen someone burned in a muslim countries before that ?

Answer to that question. Before Isis who did that ?
We don't even use it for dead people (cremation).


And i don't remember that Allah burned people in the Quran except that it's reserved for the hereafter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
No one can be sure what will happen till J-Day [if there is really such a thing.]
I believe as long as a Muslim [jihadist or any Muslim] can justify what they are doing are in accordance and/or as close as possible to God's words, they will be viewed positively by God and rewarded accordingly. So how can they be wrong if what they do is in accordance to the Book.
Because they also did things not in accordance with the Quran.
And because when people act in that way they can do whatever they want to please God so even things in excess.
That's why i put the verses about justice. I have quoted them on purpose to show you that justice in one of the most important things in Islam.


Exemple : your children don't practice Islam or went out of Islam.
The parents do some magic that they may come back to the religion or be good muslims.

Those parents think what they did was good, for the interest of their children and to please God but they were doing magic (which is even enought to be out of Islam) one of the worst sin in Islam.

If those people don't ask forgiveness before they die, they'll have to respond of this act before Allah.
And even of they were good muslim, they can enter to Hell.

If someone start to do things, without knowing correctly his religion then it's HIS fault.
In Islam you are responsable of what you do.

An other exemple : some people pray "saints", prophets etc
Not only christians do that but i've seen some muslims doing it to.
Well, it's shirk. They may not be aware what they do is wrong and thing it's something who will get them closer to God, but it's still the first and unforgiving sin.

So Isis and other extremist groups fall in that category.

I remember a muslim once stealing some products in a market.
He justified it like that : "as it's an israelis/jew product i'm just stealing from them (the supermarket in his sight) but the brand (so the jews) because they stole the palestinians so it's not really stealling and it will be a loss of money for them"



When people start some sins excusing themselves, that doesn't mean God will acccept it.

So if people kill others for this or that reasons (adultery, homosexuality,etc) they have to bring proofs (which is not as easy we already explained it).
Murder stays the sin number 2.
If you kill yourself for the cause of God even if it's not against innocent people but let say the ennemies (so the army), it's still suicide then it's still a sin. Because only God give life or take it, not you. You can't decide when you'll die.

You understand what i mean ?
If you are wrong even if you wanted at the end doing something good, it's still wrong.

If i steal money from the government and give it to a charity organization i will probably go to jail isn't it ?
If i take an orphan from a poor country to adopt him and to love and provide him everything (without asking anyone to do so but on my own) i'll probably go to jail right ?

If i kill someone who is suspected of the killing and rape of a child, i'll go to jail right ?
Eeven if there's proofs he did it, in our modern society i still commited murder, right ?


So, if you want to do something good you have to know your rights and duties toward the governement/society and also what you can't do.
Or it will be the jungle, anyone will do something he thinks it's "good" for the society, the environnement, etc.

You are responsable and can't say to a court " ah i didn't know i can't do this, sorry !"
Same thing with God. you can't say "Sorry i didn't check the Book, the Sheikh"
In a court you are responsable, same for the religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As one can see the jihadists [their scholars or followers] are very pious as seen from their dressing and behaviors. There is no way they would dare to act from their own thinking. They will definitely try to stick as close to what is dictated in the Quran or Hadiths.
The scholars and followers (of the first centuries) didn't destroyed the old statues, people of different faiths were living with muslims etc
I'm sorry but Isis do things that weren't done before.

It's like saying the KKK knows more what Christianity is than the first christians.
It's not because some christians killed black people and discriminated them (in the churches, buses etc) that those people are right.
If you were living in the 60's would have you think that those people are following the "real Christianity" ?

So why saying that Isis and theirs scholars are right if before the pious people didn't do what Isis do today ?
You have to be logical and fair.

And by the way, the dressing have nothing to do with the religion, it's cultural.
I wear jeans most of time not dresses (too cold where i live and not practical) so what, i'm not pious ?
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:42 AM
 
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"That's what is said in the hadiths : the fire is how ALLAH punishs people. Not us, humans."

But Allah says it's good for Muslims to torture and slaughter non-believers in all sorts of horrible ways, so why not fire? Is it because burning someone alive is the most horrible pain of all and Allah wants to reserve that for himself? Seriously, this whole concept of allah is just horrible....to deal in threats and torture and submission and hate and egomania and slaughter, it's awful.

"So, if you want to do something good you have to know your rights and duties toward the governement/society and also what you can't do.
Or it will be the jungle, anyone will do something he thinks it's "good" for the society, the environnement, etc. "

This brings up an interesting point....is it the 'duty' towards the government and society, or is it MORALITY? What if the government or society demands the immoral....do you then do the immoral? If you do the immoral (bad) to accomplish good, then you are still immoral. The point you miss is that society, government, religion....none of these sets moral standards. Horrible evils have been done in the name of all these things. Do you know what sets moral standards?

This is what is so wonderful about the USA and what is so horrible about Islam and Shariah Law. Our constitution recognized inalienable individual rights as moral and inalienable. These are rights that cannot be given or taken away. A right is exercised without anyone’s permission. If you exist only because society or the government or a religion permits you to exist—you have no right to your own life. A permission can be revoked at any time. If, before undertaking some action, you must obtain the permission of society—you are not free, whether such permission is granted to you or not. Only slaves act on permission. A permission is not a right.

Our country was built to protect us from groups like Muslims that want to destroy individual rights. That want to install Shariah Law and make us submit to nonsense about Allah.

For example, the constitution protects our right to our own property. That is why you can't take my property to give away, no matter what your reason. My life and my property are MINE.

Under Islam, your life belongs to allah and there are no unalienable individual rights. Islam condoned rape, murder, slavery, theft. These things fly in the face of individual rights. Muslims don't even understand the concept of individual rights.

Someone's individual rights cannot be violated except by physical force. Islam is all about initiating physical force against others.

MY LIFE IS MINE.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:54 AM
 
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I should have looked further. It seems humans have been ordered by allah's messenger to burn people alive:

Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'" Muhammad orders his men to burn alive those who do not present themselves at the mosque for prayer."


"When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.” Ibn Ishaq 764

I am always sickened when I read about the horrible tortures Muhammed and his gang carried out.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I should have looked further. It seems humans have been ordered by allah's messenger to burn people alive:

Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'" Muhammad orders his men to burn alive those who do not present themselves at the mosque for prayer."


"When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.” Ibn Ishaq 764

I am always sickened when I read about the horrible tortures Muhammed and his gang carried out.
Do not place much trust in Ibn Ishaq. Much if not all of his writings were destroyed and what we have are interpretations of interpretations along with fabricated additions etc.

626

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl." The Prophet added, "Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses."

There were no houses burned. Muhammad was heard by abu Huraira talking about the importance of Fajr prayer. Basically saying if he burned down their houses for not waking up for it, they might understand the importance. No houses were burned down.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 10-09-2015 at 11:11 AM..
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