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Old 10-04-2015, 04:54 PM
 
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1. The US Ambassador to Libya was sodomized and murdered.
2. A US military member was thrown out of the service for stopping a Muslim from raping a teenage boy.
3. ISIS dropped homosexuals from the top of a building head first.

All three of these taken together confuse me. Is there an explanation?

El Nox
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:12 PM
 
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I'll make it more confusing:

"The 9-year-old boy with pale skin and big, piercing eyes captivated Mirzahan at first sight.

“He is more handsome than anyone in the village,” the 22-year-old farmer said, explaining why he is grooming the boy as a sexual partner and companion. There was another important factor that made Waheed easy to take on as a bacha bazi, or a boy for pleasure: “He doesn’t have a father, so there is no one to stop this.”

A growing number of Afghan children are being coerced into a life of sexual abuse. The practice of wealthy or prominent Afghans exploiting underage boys as sexual partners who are often dressed up as women to dance at gatherings is on the rise in post-Taliban Afghanistan, according to Afghan human rights researchers, Western officials and men who participate in the abuse."

Afghanistan sees rise in

And:

"Pakistan is top dog in searches per-person for "horse sex" since 2004, "donkey sex" since 2007, "rape pictures" between 2004 and 2009, "rape sex" since 2004, "child sex" between 2004 and 2007 and since 2009, "animal sex" since 2004 and "dog sex" since 2005, according to Google Trends and Google Insights, features of Google that generate data based on popular search terms.

The country also is tops -- or has been No. 1 -- in searches for "sex," "camel sex," "rape video," "child sex video" and some other searches that can't be printed here."

No. 1 Nation in Sexy Web Searches? Call it Pornistan | Fox News

I hear that there is a massive Muslim porn industry. I don't even want to research that!!
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
1. The US Ambassador to Libya was sodomized and murdered.
2. A US military member was thrown out of the service for stopping a Muslim from raping a teenage boy.
3. ISIS dropped homosexuals from the top of a building head first.

All three of these taken together confuse me. Is there an explanation?

El Nox
We have our share of perverts. Just because a person says he is Muslim, does not mean he believes the same things as the majority.

sharia law is not what many people seem to think it is. there are also different categories of Sharia such as Criminal law, Family law, Religious law, Civil law. But each to be Sharia must abide by one of the Islamic Codes of Jurisprudence ( a Madhab) No nation is under full Sharia law' only a handbul use some version of Sharia Criminal law. But few do so in accordance with one of the 4 recognized madhabs.

Under the 4 madhabs forced sexual relationships are punishable by death. But it is quite difficult to prove.


Now for you confusion---

1. The US Ambassador to Libya was sodomized and murdered.

that was a criminal act. if it did happen. It still has not been rleased as to what happened.

Quote:
The circumstances of Ambassador Stevens' death are still under investigation:
The FBI has now opened an inquiry into the attack and the circumstances of the deaths of the three who were killed.

"We are not clear on the circumstances between the time when [the ambassador] got separated from the rest of the group inside the burning building to the time that we were notified that he was in a Benghazi hospital," [a U.S.] official said.

An autopsy will now be carried out to determine the cause of death.
As of this writing, the U.S. government has still not released any post-mortem information documenting the nature of Ambassador Stevens' death.

Last updated: 2 April 2014

Read more at snopes.com: American Ambassador in Libya Raped and Killed

2. A US military member was thrown out of the service for stopping a Muslim from raping a teenage boy.

That appears to be true and it is a sad commentary on the treatment of American soldiers.

Quote:
Decorated Green Beret is kicked out of U.S. Special Forces after 'shoving' Afghan police commander who 'raped boy, 12, and beat up his mother when she reported the crime'

Sgt. Charles Martland, 33, was serving in Afghanistan's Kunduz Province
He heard reports an Afghan police commander had raped 12-year-old boy
Commander Abdul Rahman had also allegedly beaten the child's mother
Martland confronted Rahman in early 2011 - and 'shoved him to ground'
He was flown out of region and sent home after Rahman reported attack
Now, 11-year veteran has been 'involuntarily discharged' from the Army
Verdict has sparked outrage among some Green Berets and politicians
'It's sad to think that a child rapist is put above one of our elite military operators,' one Republican congressman said


Read more: Green Beret soldier kicked out of US Special Forces for 'shoving' Afghan cop rapist | Daily Mail Online
But it has nothing to do with Islam. This is a Pashtun custom long ingrained in the Afghanistan culture. Even though nearly all Afghans are Muslim and aware their tradition of "Boy Sex" is forbidden in the Qur'an and under all Madhabs of Sharia.


3. ISIS dropped homosexuals from the top of a building head first.

That is true and has happened on several occasions.

ISIS follows a heretical form of sharia called "Wahhabi" it is not recognized as being Sharia by the majority of the world's Muslims.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
3. ISIS dropped homosexuals from the top of a building head first.

That is true and has happened on several occasions.

ISIS follows a heretical form of sharia called "Wahhabi" it is not recognized as being Sharia by the majority of the world's Muslims.
To be a Muslim one is bound by the terms and conditions of the Quran.
Thus the question [regardless of Sharia, Wahabi, Sunni, Shia, etc.] is whether in this case the followers of ISIS comply to the terms and conditions of their covenant with Allah or not [16:91-96].
1. Sodomy is condemned in the Quran. [7:81]

2. Sodomy [evil deeds of infidels] is a threat to Islam and Muslims.

3. Since it is threat, Allah destroyed [terror and horror] the town of Lot because of sodomy and other corruptions. [7:84]

4. The terms and conditions of the covenant are guided by principles and examples in the Quran.

5. A Muslim as obligated by the covenant must comply to the terms and conditions in the Quran.

6. Since sodomy is a threat to Islam and Muslims, the followers of ISIS in compliance with the terms, conditions, principles and examples, killed homosexuals in the most horrific ways [to cast terror as in 3:151]
Now you tell me where did the followers of ISIS did wrong in not complying with the terms and conditions of their covenant as true Muslims?

What the followers of ISIS did wrong in this case as related to homosexuality is because they do respect 'humanity', basic humanity dignity and universal human moral standards.
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Old 10-05-2015, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To be a Muslim one is bound by the terms and conditions of the Quran.
Thus the question [regardless of Sharia, Wahabi, Sunni, Shia, etc.] is whether in this case the followers of ISIS comply to the terms and conditions of their covenant with Allah or not [16:91-96].
1. Sodomy is condemned in the Quran. [7:81]

2. Sodomy [evil deeds of infidels] is a threat to Islam and Muslims.

3. Since it is threat, Allah destroyed [terror and horror] the town of Lot because of sodomy and other corruptions. [7:84]

4. The terms and conditions of the covenant are guided by principles and examples in the Quran.

5. A Muslim as obligated by the covenant must comply to the terms and conditions in the Quran.

6. Since sodomy is a threat to Islam and Muslims, the followers of ISIS in compliance with the terms, conditions, principles and examples, killed homosexuals in the most horrific ways [to cast terror as in 3:151]
Now you tell me where did the followers of ISIS did wrong in not complying with the terms and conditions of their covenant as true Muslims?

What the followers of ISIS did wrong in this case as related to homosexuality is because they do respect 'humanity', basic humanity dignity and universal human moral standards.
That would be pretty well correct. If the Qur'an was to be the only source for Islam.While the Qur'an gives the reason for Islam, it actually teaches little in the manner it which to practice it.

The Qur'an does state we are to obey Muhammad(saws)


Quote:
Quran tells us to follow the Sunnah (Hadith) = Obey the Messenger
Filed under: Beginner ó Um Abdullah M. @ 8:34 pm


1st point = Obediance of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam)

Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messengerís duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner. (5: 92).
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59).
Say: ďObey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance.(24: 54).
And whoever obeys All‚h and His Messenger, All‚h shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow. (4:13)
And whoever obeys All‚h and His Messenger, he has won a great success. (33:71)
And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of All‚h. (4:64)

These are only a some of the verse ordering to obey the Messenger of Allah :s:

https://learndeen.wordpress.com/2007...the-messenger/
As we are not living in the era in which Muhammad lived, we have to rely upon the legacy written by others which are the Sirat and Ahadith. The best means of following this through is by studying the Madhabs which do lay down the rullings of Islamic Jurisprudence in all areas.

ISIS is in error because they are ignoring the teachings of Muhammad(saws) and carried out Jurisprudence with out the guidence of Muhammad(saws)

The Madhabs are quite clear that the accused are to be given a fair trial, that even if found guilty they are to be given 3 opportuities to repent, before sentencing.

ISIS did not abide by any of this. they are following their own version of sharia with no basis in the teachings of Muhammad(saws)
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That would be pretty well correct. If the Qur'an was to be the only source for Islam.
I had argued that the Quran as the only words of Allah as recited to Muhammad via Gabriel is the primary, core and sole source of doctrines and principles for Islam.
So up to this point you agree the followers of ISIS are in compliance with the Quran.

I understand you disagree with ISIS and their likes on the following;

Quote:
While the Qur'an gives the reason for Islam, it actually teaches little in the manner it which to practice it.
Frankly this is an understatement [undermine] to the Quran. Note 12:111 [mine]
12:111 In their history verily there is a lesson for men of understanding. It [Quran] is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.
From my reading, the Quran do provide sufficient principles and guidelines for a Muslim to practice Islam that is in compliance with the terms and conditions of the expected covenant between Allah and a Muslim.


Quote:
The Qur'an does state we are to obey Muhammad(saws)

As we are not living in the era in which Muhammad lived, we have to rely upon the legacy written by others which are the Sirat and Ahadith. The best means of following this through is by studying the Madhabs which do lay down the rullings of Islamic Jurisprudence in all areas.

ISIS is in error because they are ignoring the teachings of Muhammad(saws) and carried out Jurisprudence with out the guidence of Muhammad(saws)

The Madhabs are quite clear that the accused are to be given a fair trial, that even if found guilty they are to be given 3 opportuities to repent, before sentencing.

ISIS did not abide by any of this. they are following their own version of sharia with no basis in the teachings of Muhammad(saws)
I am very well aware the Quran contains many verses exhorting Muslims to obey Allah and to obey Muhammad.

However my understanding is Muslims are only to obey Muhammad on whatever is within the confine of the Quran and not on anything that is outside the doctrines and principles of the Quran.

If a Muslims is permitted to obey Muhammad outside the confine of the Quran, then there is a danger of the possibility of what is stated by Muhammad may not be the words of Allah. It could be due to his personal selfish interests. Therefore such possibility of subjective personal interests must be totally prevented by insisting the Quran is the final arbiter.

The Quran has taken extra care to emphasize this point where Muhammad is merely a loudspeaker, a Warner, conveyor, bearer of good news, had no knowledge of Biblical stories, etc. to ensure what Muhammad recited is purely from Allah via Gabriel. In addition Muhammad is never to guide Muslims, only Allah does the guiding.
Not Muhammad's Duty to Guide Muslims


If the Quran is not the final arbiter then it is open to abuse by any one who has a personal agenda or made basic human mistakes.
I understand various tests and processes were done to eliminate the obvious hadiths from the 700,000 collected by Bukhari down to 7,000. Despite this I am very certain there is no way whatever hadiths are accepted can all be spoken by Muhammad verbatim.

Therefore whatever the hadiths, it must be reflect what is in the Quran.

How did you know the followers of ISIS and their likes did not adhere to the Madhabs. In any case the Madhabs cannot be the final arbiter.

Quote:
The Madhabs are quite clear that the accused are to be given a fair trial, that
even if found guilty they are to be given 3 opportuities to repent, before
sentencing.
Note this requirement is not stated in the Quran.
On J-Day, the followers of ISIS will inform God they did not follow this Madhab's verse because they believe it is not the words of Allah as it is not stated in the Quran and claimed that such a word was added by man and is a corruption.
Since on J-Day the final arbiter is Allah, I think the followers of ISIS will gain Allah's favor despite not following the above Madhab.

On another point, the followers of ISIS will stone adulterers to death as per certain hadiths.
This is not in the Quran and they will have to answer to Allah because it is not in the Quran, i.e. God's word. Whoever did it will get a minus point.

What is final as I mentioned earlier, regardless of the Madhabs what count is how much did the followers of ISIS act [as duty] in accordance to the expectations of what is stipulated in the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
On Judgment Day [J-Day] God will tally [reckon] all the points and judged accordingly.

As a hypothesis, I believe the followers of ISIS will score more points on being a true Muslims than the ordinary majority of Muslims. I am doing research into this. Note my project of using the 6,236 verses as a checklist.
This is very objective and as the Quran stated in many verses no one will be 'wronged' when Allah judges.

Last edited by Continuum; 10-06-2015 at 04:15 AM..
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:27 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
1. The US Ambassador to Libya was sodomized and murdered.
2. A US military member was thrown out of the service for stopping a Muslim from raping a teenage boy.
3. ISIS dropped homosexuals from the top of a building head first.

All three of these taken together confuse me. Is there an explanation?

El Nox
Homosexuality is a big sin in Islam but like said Woodrow Li they must have a fair trial so Isis can't just throw them from a building.

Concerning the sentence against homosexuals it depends of the countries, some put them in jail some have to pay a fine. And in general nothing really happen to lesbians.

I don't know exactly what says the Sharia about this.
There's nothing about a punishment in the Quran but i guess it's more or less like adultery concerning the witnesses etc
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:54 AM
 
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"There's nothing about a punishment in the Quran"

Well....


"Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction. (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and 29).

Qur'an (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?" This verse is part of the previous text and it establishes that homosexuality as different from (and much worse than) adultery or other sexual sin. According to the Arabic grammar, homosexuality is called the worst sin, while references elsewhere describe other forms of non-marital sex as being "among great sins."

Qur'an (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Qur'an (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"). In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.

Interestingly, the same rules don't apply in paradise, where martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Qur'an (56:17) (otherwise known as "boys" Qur'an (52:24)). Qur'an (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls." Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn't necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and "freshness" of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23)."

Islam and Homosexuality
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"There's nothing about a punishment in the Quran"

Well....


"Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction. (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and 29).

Qur'an (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?" This verse is part of the previous text and it establishes that homosexuality as different from (and much worse than) adultery or other sexual sin. According to the Arabic grammar, homosexuality is called the worst sin, while references elsewhere describe other forms of non-marital sex as being "among great sins."

Qur'an (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Qur'an (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"). In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.

Interestingly, the same rules don't apply in paradise, where martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Qur'an (56:17) (otherwise known as "boys" Qur'an (52:24)). Qur'an (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls." Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn't necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and "freshness" of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23)."

Islam and Homosexuality
No where in the Qur'an are we told what the penalty for honosexual acts shoult be.

This is covered in the madhabs and will differ from community to community.

Should also be noted Homosexual act are virtually impossible to prove, unless the individuals are blatantly doing them publicly.

No where does the Qur'an describe heaven as an orgy.

I challenge you to find in the Qur'an we will be given 72 virgins.
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Homosexuality is a big sin in Islam but like said Woodrow Li they must have a fair trial so Isis can't just throw them from a building.
Note my argument above on how the followers of ISIS justify their violence on homosexuals. Do you have an argument against that. In addition, on Judgment Day,
On J-Day, the followers of ISIS will inform God [Allah will know in the Iliyin [illiyun they did not follow this Madhab's verse because they believe it is not the words of Allah as it is not stated in the Quran and claimed that such a word was added by man and is a corruption.
Since on J-Day the final arbiter is Allah, I think the followers of ISIS will gain Allah's favor despite not following the above Madhab.

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