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Old 10-06-2015, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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28:68 is very clear Allah do not [NEVER] give any free choice. No Freewill. [mine]
28:68. [Pickthall] Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They [mankind] have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and exalted above all that they [infidels] associate [their idols] (with Him)!

I have recorded many verses in the Quran where Allah deliberately create infidels on whom He will and infidels have no say on it. Then the infidels will be tortured in Hell.

In many postings I note many Muslims claim they are given a choice based on some verses.
Apparently there is a contradiction when the Quran claimed it has no contradictions.

From my reading of the Quran, the prevailing dictate is there is no Freewill for the infidels and Muslims.

So how do Muslims reconcile the above contradictions.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
28:68 is very clear Allah do not [NEVER] give any free choice. No Freewill. [mine]
28:68. [Pickthall] Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They [mankind] have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and exalted above all that they [infidels] associate [their idols] (with Him)!

I have recorded many verses in the Quran where Allah deliberately create infidels on whom He will and infidels have no say on it. Then the infidels will be tortured in Hell.

In many postings I note many Muslims claim they are given a choice based on some verses.
Apparently there is a contradiction when the Quran claimed it has no contradictions.

From my reading of the Quran, the prevailing dictate is there is no Freewill for the infidels and Muslims.

So how do Muslims reconcile the above contradictions.
So how do Muslims reconcile the above contradictions.

By not assuming an ayyat is a stand alone comment.

Quote:
Is he whom We have promised a fair promise which he will find (true) like him whom We suffer to enjoy awhile the comfort of the life of the world, then on the Day of Resurrection he will be of those arraigned? - 28:61 (Picktall)
On the Day when He will call unto them and say: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? - 28:62 (Picktall)
Those concerning whom the Word will have come true will say: Our Lord! These are they whom we led astray. We led them astray even as we ourselves were astray. We declare our innocence before Thee: us they never worshipped - 28:63 (Picktall)
And it will be said: Cry unto your (so-called) partners (of Allah). And they will cry unto them, and they will give no answer unto them, and they will see the Doom. Ah, if they had but been guided! - 28:64 (Picktall)
And on the Day when He will call unto them and say: What answer gave ye to the messengers? - 28:65 (Picktall)
On that day (all) tidings will be dimmed for them, nor will they ask one of another, - 28:66 (Picktall)
But as for him who shall repent and believe and do right, he haply may be one of the successful. - 28:67 (Picktall)
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and exalted above all that they associate (with Him)! - 28:68 (Picktall
And thy Lord knoweth what thee breasts conceal, and what they publish. - 28:69 (Picktall)
No contradiction, simply a statement that they (the idolaters) had no chance of deceiving Allaah(swt)
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:40 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 760,706 times
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"No contradiction, simply a statement that they (the idolaters) had no chance of deceiving Allaah(swt)"

It says "They have never any choice."

Not: They have never any "chance".

And look at the previous sentence: "Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. "
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,369,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"No contradiction, simply a statement that they (the idolaters) had no chance of deceiving Allaah(swt)"

It says "They have never any choice."

Not: They have never any "chance".

And look at the previous sentence: "Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. "
True

But the ayyat is not a stand alone statement. The gist of the discourse from 62-69 shows they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)

As Allaah(swt) knows all things--there is no choice involved. It was an impossibility to do. One can not choose to deceive Allaah(swt) as it can not be done. One might desire too do so but they can't.

The Surah is not a statement that we do not have free will and can not make choices.

However that is a logical misunderstanding if a person believes every ayyat is a stand alone comment.

Sadly translations of the Qur'an do not carry the flow of each discourse and it can be difficult to tell where a thought begins and ends.
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:21 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 760,706 times
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"The gist of the discourse from 62-69 shows they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)"

Really? Show the verse(s) that show this and that they relate to:
"Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice."

"The Surah is not a statement that we do not have free will and can not make choices."
Let's look at another translation:

"Muhsin Khan
And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses, no choice have they (in any matter).

And another:

"Dr. Ghali
And your Lord creates whatever He decides and He chooses. In no way do they have the choice. "

No choice = no free will.
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,369,655 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The gist of the discourse from 62-69 shows they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)"

Really? Show the verse(s) that show this and that they relate to:
"Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice."

"The Surah is not a statement that we do not have free will and can not make choices."
Let's look at another translation:

"Muhsin Khan
And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses, no choice have they (in any matter).

And another:

"Dr. Ghali
And your Lord creates whatever He decides and He chooses. In no way do they have the choice. "

No choice = no free will.
To understand one needs to understand a minimum of 71-69 as a single thought or pragraph'

To repeat it:

Quote:
s he whom We have promised a fair promise which he will find (true) like him whom We suffer to enjoy awhile the comfort of the life of the world, then on the Day of Resurrection he will be of those arraigned? - 28:61 (Picktall)
On the Day when He will call unto them and say: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? - 28:62 (Picktall)
Those concerning whom the Word will have come true will say: Our Lord! These are they whom we led astray. We led them astray even as we ourselves were astray. We declare our innocence before Thee: us they never worshipped - 28:63 (Picktall)

And on the Day when He will call unto them and say: What answer gave ye to the messengers? - 28:65 (Picktall)
On that day (all) tidings will be dimmed for them, nor will they ask one of another, - 28:66 (Picktall)
But as for him who shall repent and believe and do right, he haply may be one of the successful. - 28:67 (Picktall)
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and exalted above all that they associate (with Him)! - 28:68 (Picktall
And thy Lord knoweth what thee breasts conceal, and what they publish. - 28:69 (Picktall)
62 is quite clear it is speaking of polytheists--"Where are My partners whom ye imagined?"

63 is quite clear that on Judgement day they will vainly ask non-existent gods for help and will not be heard "And it will be said: Cry unto your (so-called) partners (of Allah). And they will cry unto them, and they will give no answer unto them, and they will see the Doom. Ah, if they had but been guided! - 28:64 (Picktall)"

they followed a false god and now that they are dead, have no choice except to face the consequences. It is too late for choices and they can not fake it. Because of their free will choice while alive the polytheists lost their chance for heaven. "And thy Lord knoweth what thee breasts conceal, and what they publish. - 28:69 (Picktall)"
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Old 10-06-2015, 05:08 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 760,706 times
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"62 is quite clear it is speaking of polytheists--"Where are My partners whom ye imagined?"

ok, but this is not showing "they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)"

"63 is quite clear that on Judgement day they will vainly ask non-existent gods for help and will not be heard "And it will be said: Cry unto your (so-called) partners (of Allah). And they will cry unto them, and they will give no answer unto them, and they will see the Doom. Ah, if they had but been guided! - 28:64 (Picktall)"

Again, this is not showing "they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)" nor does this relate to
to:
"Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice."

Nothing about inability to deceive allah in either verse...just that crying to their gods will not help and allah has doom in store for them.
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Old 10-06-2015, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,369,655 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"62 is quite clear it is speaking of polytheists--"Where are My partners whom ye imagined?"

ok, but this is not showing "they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)"

"63 is quite clear that on Judgement day they will vainly ask non-existent gods for help and will not be heard "And it will be said: Cry unto your (so-called) partners (of Allah). And they will cry unto them, and they will give no answer unto them, and they will see the Doom. Ah, if they had but been guided! - 28:64 (Picktall)"

Again, this is not showing "they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)" nor does this relate to
to:
"Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice."

Nothing about inability to deceive allah in either verse...just that crying to their gods will not help and allah has doom in store for them.
Correct

Quote:
Nothing about inability to deceive allah in either verse...just that crying to their gods will not help and allah has doom in store for them.
Except the bolded part explains why they are not able to deceive. It would be in vain.
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,605,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True

But the ayyat is not a stand alone statement. The gist of the discourse from 62-69 shows they (the polytheist-idolters) never had a chance to deceive Allaah(swt)

As Allaah(swt) knows all things--there is no choice involved. It was an impossibility to do. One can not choose to deceive Allaah(swt) as it can not be done. One might desire too do so but they can't.

The Surah is not a statement that we do not have free will and can not make choices.

However that is a logical misunderstanding if a person believes every ayyat is a stand alone comment.

Sadly translations of the Qur'an do not carry the flow of each discourse and it can be difficult to tell where a thought begins and ends.
Note I picked 28:68 as I was going through the Quran line by line and word by word which reflect 'no freewill.'
However I am very aware there are many other verses that indicate there is no freewill for infidels and Muslims. I wrote this in the OP;
I have recorded many verses in the Quran where Allah deliberately create infidels on whom He will and infidels have no say on it. Then the infidels will be tortured in Hell.

[SIZE=3]Here is a sample of verses [there are many more] which indicate there is no ultimate freewill for infidels and Muslims alike;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]2:26. Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude evenof a gnat. Those [Muslims] who believe know that it is the truth from theirLord; but those [infidels] who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach)by such a similitude? He [Allah] misleadeth many [infidels] thereby, and Heguideth many [Muslims] thereby; and He [Allah] misleadeth thereby onlymiscreants;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]10:100. It is not for any soul to believe [be a Muslim] save[except] by the permission of Allah. He hath set [cast, lay] uncleanness[disbelief, astray] upon those [infidels] who have no sense [understanding].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]In the context of the whole Quran, there is no freewill for the infidels and Muslims.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]There are verses that indicate infidels and Muslims do have choices but that is only pseudo and secondary. Infidels and Muslims do have the feeling of choices but ..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]The ultimate point is Allah is the final decider not the infidel or Muslim. Therefore there is no absolute 'freewill' for the infidels and Muslims.[/SIZE]
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