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Old 10-09-2015, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Arabic for what Islam is, is De'en. although De'en is often translated to English as religion. The Arabic De'en and Religion have differences.

The word De'en can also be translated as life. Both life and religion are partially correct, neither fully. There is no English word that equates fully with de'en.

The Arabic word (دين) pronounced as De'en, Deen or Din is also translated into English as Recompense(24:25:4) , Judgement(15:35:6) , law(12:76:19), worship(16:52:7), debt(2:282:6)
There are also several different forms it can be written is Depending on if it is used as a verb, Noun or adjective. It is a much broader concept that the English concept of Religion. It is also a term used in Skhism and Christianity. Wiki actually gives a good definition


Islam is a De'en not a religion in the concept of the English word Religion. It is much broader and does include many things non-Muslim do not consider as Islam.
The problem with this:

. Religion + [Muhammad & Quran] = Religion of Islam

and this:

Islam is a monotheistic, Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an, a religious text considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Allāh) and revealed to Muhammad via angel Gabriel.

There can be and have been Muslims that never heard of the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws)
You are contradicting and confusing the issues.

You claimed
1. Islam is Deen - a complete way of life - Quran, Sunnah, Sharia [specific]
2. Islam is Submission - to monotheistic God [General]
The term [Deen] is loosely associated with "religion", but as used in the Qur'an, it means the way of life in which righteous Muslims are obligated to adopt in order to comply with divine law (Quran and sunnah), or Shari'a, and to the divine judgment or recompense to which all humanity must inevitably face without intercessors before God.
..."Islam is Dīn, a complete way of life".[2] -wiki
So your 1 and 2 above are a contradiction.

Your presentation is full of conflations and confusion of terms.

What you are not aware is, the term 'Religion' is a VERY LOOSE term in English or otherwise.
Therefore before we start to compare we need to agree on what we meant by 'religion.'
Otherwise if you choose your own definition according to a dictionary or wiki, and I choose mine from elsewhere then we are shooting at different goal posts and talking pass each other.

In addition, I think the term 'Deen' is also a very loose term especially when it refers to 'a complete way of life'. There is also the term 'millat' which is used synonymously with 'Deen' in the Quran. Therefore we need to be very clear on both terms before we start shooting [the discussion].

To avoid talking pass each other, I suggest we refer to a serious scholarship view of 'what is religion' and 'what is Deen.'

On a serious study of religion on the serious scholarship level, I suggest we rely on Ninian Smart extensive research on 'what is a religion.' [you may suggest any alternative].

Ninian Smart proposed, for any set of human activities and experiences to qualify to be terms a 'religion' it must contain the 7 essential dimensions, i.e.
1. Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)

2. Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

3. Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)

4. Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)

5. Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)

6. Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form

7. Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural

Note the above do not include 'God' because there are religions that do not believe in God. To include God then we differentiate between theistic religions and non-theistic religion.
Do you agree with the above fundamental definition of 'what is a religion'?

If you agree to the definition then,

Religion [as above] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] = Religion of Islam

I don't see what is wrong with the above justifiable definition of Islam.
What is that you don't agree with the above.

In addition, if you analyze the term 'deen' you will note most of its fundamental elements will reconcile with the 7 dimension of religion [as defined by Smart]. If any of the elements within what is 'deen' is not in Smart's dimension them we can define Islam as;

Religion [as above] + [Other Deen elements] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] = Religion of Islam

I believe the above Model is the most effective to establish what is Islam as a religion.
I think Smart's 7 elements cover all the Deen elements.
You tell me what is considered within the 'Deen', e.g. Recompense(24:25:4) , Judgement(15:35:6) , law(12:76:19), worship(16:52:7), debt(2:282:6) that is not within the 7 Dimensions. The critical element of 'God' can be dealt separately.

With the above Model, one can define any 'Religion' without confusions and disagreement.
For example,

Religion [7 Dimensions as above] + [Other Deen elements] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] + Sharia [Sunni] + Madhab = Religion of Islam of the Sunni

Religion [as above] + [Other elements] + monotheism + [Jesus and NT] = Religion of Christianity

Without a proper Model to establish the definition, what we have as you have done is wild definitions.
If you think you have a better model, present it.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are contradicting and confusing the issues.

You claimed
1. Islam is Deen - a complete way of life - Quran, Sunnah, Sharia [specific]
2. Islam is Submission - to monotheistic God [General]
The term [Deen] is loosely associated with "religion", but as used in the Qur'an, it means the way of life in which righteous Muslims are obligated to adopt in order to comply with divine law (Quran and sunnah), or Shari'a, and to the divine judgment or recompense to which all humanity must inevitably face without intercessors before God.
..."Islam is Dīn, a complete way of life".[2] -wiki
So your 1 and 2 above are a contradiction.

Your presentation is full of conflations and confusion of terms.

What you are not aware is, the term 'Religion' is a VERY LOOSE term in English or otherwise.
Therefore before we start to compare we need to agree on what we meant by 'religion.'
Otherwise if you choose your own definition according to a dictionary or wiki, and I choose mine from elsewhere then we are shooting at different goal posts and talking pass each other.

In addition, I think the term 'Deen' is also a very loose term especially when it refers to 'a complete way of life'. There is also the term 'millat' which is used synonymously with 'Deen' in the Quran. Therefore we need to be very clear on both terms before we start shooting [the discussion].

To avoid talking pass each other, I suggest we refer to a serious scholarship view of 'what is religion' and 'what is Deen.'

On a serious study of religion on the serious scholarship level, I suggest we rely on Ninian Smart extensive research on 'what is a religion.' [you may suggest any alternative].

Ninian Smart proposed, for any set of human activities and experiences to qualify to be terms a 'religion' it must contain the 7 essential dimensions, i.e.
1. Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)

2. Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

3. Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)

4. Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)

5. Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)

6. Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form

7. Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural

Note the above do not include 'God' because there are religions that do not believe in God. To include God then we differentiate between theistic religions and non-theistic religion.
Do you agree with the above fundamental definition of 'what is a religion'?

If you agree to the definition then,

Religion [as above] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] = Religion of Islam

I don't see what is wrong with the above justifiable definition of Islam.
What is that you don't agree with the above.

In addition, if you analyze the term 'deen' you will note most of its fundamental elements will reconcile with the 7 dimension of religion [as defined by Smart]. If any of the elements within what is 'deen' is not in Smart's dimension them we can define Islam as;

Religion [as above] + [Other Deen elements] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] = Religion of Islam

I believe the above Model is the most effective to establish what is Islam as a religion.
I think Smart's 7 elements cover all the Deen elements.
You tell me what is considered within the 'Deen', e.g. Recompense(24:25:4) , Judgement(15:35:6) , law(12:76:19), worship(16:52:7), debt(2:282:6) that is not within the 7 Dimensions. The critical element of 'God' can be dealt separately.

With the above Model, one can define any 'Religion' without confusions and disagreement.
For example,

Religion [7 Dimensions as above] + [Other Deen elements] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] + Sharia [Sunni] + Madhab = Religion of Islam of the Sunni

Religion [as above] + [Other elements] + monotheism + [Jesus and NT] = Religion of Christianity

Without a proper Model to establish the definition, what we have as you have done is wild definitions.
If you think you have a better model, present it.
I can agree with this

Quote:
Ninian Smart proposed, for any set of human activities and experiences to qualify to be terms a 'religion' it must contain the 7 essential dimensions, i.e.
1. Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)

2. Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

3. Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)

4. Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)

5. Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)

6. Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form

7. Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural
Except Islam does not have numbers 6 & 7, number 4 is not universal among all Muslims and number 1 is a bit difficult to relate to Islam.

Using Smart's criteria Islam is not a religion.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I can agree with this

Except Islam does not have numbers 6 & 7, number 4 is not universal among all Muslims and number 1 is a bit difficult to relate to Islam.

Using Smart's criteria Islam is not a religion.
Ninian Smart presented his thesis in a very thick book and giving all his supporting evidences. I don't have the details off hand, but if you read the book you will agree at least with some qualifications.


6. Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form.

This refer to the Quran itself. If taken further they refer to the secondary hadiths, texts of the Madhabs, etc.


7. Material: ordinary objects OR places that symbolize OR manifest the sacred OR supernatural
Note the Kaaba and various places visited during pilgrimage. What does the 'stoning of the devil' represent then if not of the supernatural.


4. Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)
If not 100%, we can be sure 95% of Muslims conform to the above.

1. Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)
This refer to the worship, prayers, ritual of sacrifices, pilgrimages,

Your objection is not valid, i.e. by merely hand waving without proper consideration that is in line with Smart's scholarship.

If you do a serious study into Smart's thesis and all activities of Islam, the 7 dimensions are present in Islam.

The 7 dimensions may not be 100% Islam but there can be consensus of 'what is a religion' as qualified to Smart's dimension.
It is not an absolute definition but most will agree that Islam is religion as with any other we term as religion within Smart's term.

To deal with what is in Islam and not within the 7 dimensions we can use the Model I proposed above to get a more precise definition of 'Islam' i.e.

Religion [7 Dimensions as above] + [Other Deen elements] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] + [? exposition] + [? school] = Religion of Islam of [X school]

We need some kind of model, if not the above, then some kind of objective model that is acceptable to us or other parties. Otherwise, I view you of trying to be shady, vague, rhetorical, sliding, vague so as to deceive for personal reasons.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Ninian Smart presented his thesis in a very thick book and giving all his supporting evidences. I don't have the details off hand, but if you read the book you will agree at least with some qualifications.


6. Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form.

This refer to the Quran itself. If taken further they refer to the secondary hadiths, texts of the Madhabs, etc.


7. Material: ordinary objects OR places that symbolize OR manifest the sacred OR supernatural
Note the Kaaba and various places visited during pilgrimage. What does the 'stoning of the devil' represent then if not of the supernatural.


4. Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)
If not 100%, we can be sure 95% of Muslims conform to the above.

1. Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)
This refer to the worship, prayers, ritual of sacrifices, pilgrimages,

Your objection is not valid, i.e. by merely hand waving without proper consideration that is in line with Smart's scholarship.

If you do a serious study into Smart's thesis and all activities of Islam, the 7 dimensions are present in Islam.

The 7 dimensions may not be 100% Islam but there can be consensus of 'what is a religion' as qualified to Smart's dimension.
It is not an absolute definition but most will agree that Islam is religion as with any other we term as religion within Smart's term.

To deal with what is in Islam and not within the 7 dimensions we can use the Model I proposed above to get a more precise definition of 'Islam' i.e.

Religion [7 Dimensions as above] + [Other Deen elements] + monotheism + [Muhammad & Quran] + [? exposition] + [? school] = Religion of Islam of [X school]

We need some kind of model, if not the above, then some kind of objective model that is acceptable to us or other parties. Otherwise, I view you of trying to be shady, vague, rhetorical, sliding, vague so as to deceive for personal reasons.
Quote:
6. Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form.

This refer to the Quran itself. If taken further they refer to the secondary hadiths, texts of the Madhabs, etc.
Show that we have a standardized teaching and that it is a requirement to read the Qur'an or any scripture to be a Muslim.

Quote:
1. Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)
This refer to the worship, prayers, ritual of sacrifices, pilgrimages,
None of which are standardized in Islam. Prayer in a Mosque is not required. There are no actual ceremonies that we perform not any sacrivices to Allaah(swt) as Allaah(swt) has no need of such. We do Sacrifices such as fasting, Giving alms etc. But the sacrifices are for our own fulfillment and the learning of handling trials and tribulations.


Quote:
7. Material: ordinary objects OR places that symbolize OR manifest the sacred OR supernatural
Note the Kaaba and various places visited during pilgrimage. What does the 'stoning of the devil' represent then if not of the supernatural.
The stoning of the pillars (Those are rebuilt very often) represent our denouncing our own inner Shaytan and/or the shaitans we meet in life.. Shaitan is not a supernatural being. Any sapient being can be a shaitan. That being any person or thought that attempts to lead us away from Islam.

Quote:
4. Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)
If not 100%, we can be sure 95% of Muslims conform to the above.
I suspect that what many identify as Muslim is more often national culture, mistaken for Islam. If you where in India where the Majority of Muslims and Hindus speak the same language, are the same race,dress alike, etc you would not be able to tell a Muslim from a Hindu.

In Indonesia, Egypt and Saudi you would have difficulty trying to differentiate a Christian from a Muslim.

I agree for understanding there needs to be agreed upon definitions.

Islam does not meet the definition of religion. The only way to describe it is as a De'en It is not a religion in accordance with the definition of religion.

I will agree that the Madhabs come close enough to the definition of religion to be called religions.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:00 AM
 
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ISLAM: the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2. the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.
Dictionatry.com

ISLAM: : the religion which teaches that there is only one God and that Muhammad is God's prophet : the religion of Muslims
: the modern nations in which Islam is the main religion
Merriam-Webster

You do not get to redefine words or concepts.

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Read that carefully.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,349,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
ISLAM: the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2. the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.
Dictionatry.com

ISLAM: : the religion which teaches that there is only one God and that Muhammad is God's prophet : the religion of Muslims
: the modern nations in which Islam is the main religion
Merriam-Webster

You do not get to redefine words or concepts.

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Read that carefully.
I am claiming that Islam is not a religion in accordance with the English definition of Religion. although I will concede that the madhabs are religions and meet your definition of religion..

Although not all Muslims follow a Madhab.

I do follow a Madhab. the Hanafi Madhab and that is the religion I follow. (The hanafi Madhab does differ by location ) The hanafi madhab does meet your definition of religion.

Islam is not an organization or entity, it is an action. The action of submitting to Allaah(swt) a person who performs Islam is a Muslim. I choose the hanafi Madhab as my means to submit. The fact I am submitting makes me a Muslim, not the fact I follow the hanafi Madhab as a religion.

The De'en I practice is Islam. But that is not my religion. A person need not follow a prescribed religion(English definition) to practice Islam and be a Muslim.

Adam submitted to Allaah(swt) That is Islam. He was a Muslim but he did not follow any organized Religion in accordance to the English definition of religion.

Saudi follows Hanbali modified by Wahabbi that is the religion of Saudi

Iran follows the Jafari'i code that is their religion

ISIS follows an extreme version of Wahhabi, that is their religion

Turkey follows a secular form of Hanafi, that is their religion

Indonesia follows the Shafi madhab, that is their religion.

Sufi follow Sufi'ism, that is their religion. (There are atheist Sufi that do not perform Islam) but follow Sufi'ism as a non-theocratic religion.

The Ahmaddyyat follow Ahmadyyah, that is their religion

You have different religions, each believing they are performing the act of Islam (Except for some Sufi that do not believe in the existence of Allah)
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Old 10-10-2015, 11:26 AM
 
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"The action of submitting to Allaah(swt) a person who performs Islam is a Muslim. "

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies,

Are you saying that allah did NOT create the universe, or that allah is NOT supernatural?
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,349,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The action of submitting to Allaah(swt) a person who performs Islam is a Muslim. "

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies,

Are you saying that allah did NOT create the universe, or that allah is NOT supernatural?
Now you are narrowing the definition of Religion.

But even so Islam does not meet that definition of a religion as Islam is an act of worship. Not the structure of such. The religion following that definition would be any of the Madhabs. Irregardless of the religion followed, it the person is actually submitting to Allaah(swt) they are Muslim.

For general purposes the madhabs (Religions) considered to be performing Islam are:

Hanafi
Hanbali
Maliki
Shafi'i
NOI
Jafari
Ismaili
Ahmaddya
Sufi
Qurani

Some others that may or may not be performing Islam (there is disagreement as to if they perform Islam) although most consider the Qur'an to be the source of their religion

Druze--SEE LINK
Yezidi--SEE LINK
Sikh--SEE LINK
Bahai'i--SEE LINK
Non trinitarian Christians--SEE LINK
Messianic Muslims--SEE LINK
Jews for Allah--SEE LINK

Islam is an action not a religion. In the past several religions did truly submit to God(swt) and performed Islam.

A Muslim is any person who submits to Allaah(swt) that would be any person who follows a Madhab be it one of the recognized madhabs or a non-recognized one.

Sunni recognize only Maliki, Hanafi, Hanbli and Shafi'i as being Madhabs. It is true a Madhab is a religion. But it is possible for a person to practice Islam and not follow a Madhab. If through no fault of their own they have no knowledge of Madhabs.

I do not know all the Madhabs followed by Shi'ite but am slightly familiar with Jafari'i and Ismaili.

I reiterate and hope to make clear. Islam is a specific act. A person who performs Islam is a Muslim, no matter what religion or Madhab the person follows.

Sunni only recognize the 4 Madhabs as performing Islam. But not all Sunni follow one of the 4 and not all who believe they call them self Muslim follow a Madhab.

There are Many religious groups that claim to be Muslims. As there is no way to prove who is a Muslim all people that say they are Muslim are accepted as being Muslim.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 10-10-2015 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:58 PM
 
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Are you saying that allah did NOT create the universe, or that allah is NOT supernatural?
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Are you saying that allah did NOT create the universe, or that allah is NOT supernatural?

No, I am saying that Islam is not dependent upon the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws). It is an action. Not the name of a religioin.

While Muhammad(saws) did perform Islam and taught how to perform Islam. There were Muslims prior to Muhammad(saws) and will be again when Jesus(a.s.) returns and with the Mehdi establishes the final Caliphate.

Islam is not the name of a relegion. It is an action. People of several religions have or did or do perform Islam. Every person who performs Islam is a Muslim. Currently I believe only the followers of a Sunni Madhab performs Islam. but there are many others who will disagree and claim many other religions perform Islam and are Muslims.
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