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Old 10-10-2015, 05:09 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,156 times
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"No, I am saying that Islam is not dependent upon the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws). It is an action. Not the name of a religioin. "

Ah, you are saying that Islam is a verb!

Let's see!

Islam: noun
1.
the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2.
the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

Islam
noun Is·lam \is-ˈläm, iz-, -ˈlam, ˈis-ˌ, ˈiz-ˌ\
: the religion which teaches that there is only one God and that Muhammad is God's prophet : the religion of Muslims

Nope, not a verb. Maybe you can use it as a verb in some cases, but for our purpose here Islam is defined as a noun and religion.

If we take away Muhammed, there is no Islam. No allah.
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Old 10-10-2015, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"No, I am saying that Islam is not dependent upon the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws). It is an action. Not the name of a religioin. "

Ah, you are saying that Islam is a verb!

Let's see!

Islam: noun
1.
the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2.
the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

Islam
noun Is·lam \is-ˈläm, iz-, -ˈlam, ˈis-ˌ, ˈiz-ˌ\
: the religion which teaches that there is only one God and that Muhammad is God's prophet : the religion of Muslims

Nope, not a verb. Maybe you can use it as a verb in some cases, but for our purpose here Islam is defined as a noun and religion.

If we take away Muhammed, there is no Islam. No allah.
In Arabic Islam is a verb, in it's primary meaning. But it can be used as the name for a way of life (De'en) and as the name of a religion only in avery broad sense.


Quote:
Islam

Islam (what it is?) - "Islam" means (surrender; submission; obedience; peace)

Islam is a verb and a noun at the same time.

The first meaning of "Islam" is the verb from the root "aslama" (a verb), meaning to: "surrender; submit; obey; sincerity and in peace."

The second meaning of "Islam" is the noun form from the same root, and it describes the last and final form of the way of life as perscribed by the Creator for His Creation. This is the name used in Quran for Muslims to call themselves as followers of "Islam". This would make them "Islam-ers" in English, but of course in Arabic the prefix "mu" is added to denote the one preforming the action or verb and instead it becomes "mu"-"islam" or "Muslim."

"Islam" can be understood in a very general sense to be the true religion of God, as it is from Him and according to His commandments without adding to or taking away from the basic precepts.

http://islamtomorrow.com/islam/index.asp
Islam existed before Muhammad(saws) as there were people who truly submitted to God(swt) notably the Prophets.

Today if a person has not heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an through no fault of their own they can still perform Islam and be Muslims to the best of their ability.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:30 PM
 
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"Today if a person has not heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an through no fault of their own they can still perform Islam and be Muslims to the best of their ability."

So let's destroy all the Qurans and hadiths and start over without all the hate and violence!

Have a new book that really is peaceful and really does encourage free will and none of this hateful hell fire nonsense and infidel crap and taking over the world garbage. No prophet that sold and raped and enslaved women and wasn't a warlord demanding terrorism and genocide and hate.

You good with that?
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Today if a person has not heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an through no fault of their own they can still perform Islam and be Muslims to the best of their ability."

So let's destroy all the Qurans and hadiths and start over without all the hate and violence!

Have a new book that really is peaceful and really does encourage free will and none of this hateful hell fire nonsense and infidel crap and taking over the world garbage. No prophet that sold and raped and enslaved women and wasn't a warlord demanding terrorism and genocide and hate.

You good with that?
Except the Qur'an was revealed and has laid out how Islam is to be performed at least until the Return of Jesus(a.s.) all those who have access to the Qur'an and the Ahadith are obligated to follow them. Unless through no fault of their own they have no knowledge of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an.

The Qur'an does not condone or promote violence, or hate or genocide or rape or terrorism. We ave been through this many times.

Slavery as practiced was not the slavery practiced by Westerners.

A slave was basically treated as an adopted family member and it was encouraged to free slaves. It is true Muhammad(saws) bought slaves, but he freed every one he bought.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Show that we have a standardized teaching and that it is a requirement to read the Qur'an or any scripture to be a Muslim.



None of which are standardized in Islam. Prayer in a Mosque is not required. There are no actual ceremonies that we perform not any sacrivices to Allaah(swt) as Allaah(swt) has no need of such. We do Sacrifices such as fasting, Giving alms etc. But the sacrifices are for our own fulfillment and the learning of handling trials and tribulations.


The stoning of the pillars (Those are rebuilt very often) represent our denouncing our own inner Shaytan and/or the shaitans we meet in life.. Shaitan is not a supernatural being. Any sapient being can be a shaitan. That being any person or thought that attempts to lead us away from Islam.

I suspect that what many identify as Muslim is more often national culture, mistaken for Islam. If you where in India where the Majority of Muslims and Hindus speak the same language, are the same race,dress alike, etc you would not be able to tell a Muslim from a Hindu.

In Indonesia, Egypt and Saudi you would have difficulty trying to differentiate a Christian from a Muslim.

I agree for understanding there needs to be agreed upon definitions.

Islam does not meet the definition of religion. The only way to describe it is as a De'en It is not a religion in accordance with the definition of religion.

I will agree that the Madhabs come close enough to the definition of religion to be called religions.
You are getting too personal in this case and thus the confusions.

My discussion is centered on the conventional.
Islam as a religion in the general sense is that Islam as practiced by 99% of Muslims.

I have no issue if you want to practice Islam as different from the rest of the 99% of Muslims.
There are many believers of religion [conventional] who do not adopt the religiosity of a religion.
However they adhere to the core principles of the defined religion.

For example there are Buddhists who are not religious at all. These Buddhists practiced privately, do not practice all rituals nor follow all the doctrines but to be labeled Buddhists, they have to adopt the core principles of Buddhism and recognized and Gautama Buddha as the originator of Buddhism. Many are ascetics and practice their limited Buddhism all alone in the Jungles and mountains far from civilizations.
Such same approaches are done by certain Sufis, Christian monks and believers from other religions but the main criteria is these loners [or independents] must relate to the core principles of the religion, the holy texts and the founder.

Therefore if you want to be labeled a Muslim of Islam, you will need to be associated with the core principles in the Quran and Muhammad. One cannot have Islam without the Quran and Muhammad.

"You" as a loner [or in a small group] have no authority to define Islam as religion on behalf of 99% of the 1.5+ billion Muslims!

I proposed you can called your Islam specifically as "Loner-Islam" [of minimal religiosity] so as to differentiate from the conventional meaning of Islam as a religion. Then you need to qualify yourself as a Muslim of 'Loner-Islam' to differentiate from the normal Muslims.
Even then "Loner-Islam" must be imperatively linked with the essential core principles of Quran and Muhammad.
How true a Muslim you are in practicing 'Loner-Islam' will still be measured by how much you comply with the covenant you entered with Allah in accordance to the 6,236 verses of the Quran.

We need the above qualifications so as to avoid talking pass each other every time we discuss Islam.

Last edited by Continuum; 10-10-2015 at 11:22 PM..
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:03 AM
 
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"The Qur'an does not condone or promote violence, or hate or genocide or rape or terrorism. "

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers. 3:151

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.
7:4

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 8:12

Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. 8:60

Lo! Those who chose the calf (for worship), terror from their Lord and humiliation will come upon them in the life of the world. Thus do We requite those who invent a lie. 7:152

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression! 17:60

And the true promise (Day of Resurrection) shall draw near (of fulfillment). Then (when mankind is resurrected from their graves), you shall see the eyes of the disbelievers fixedly stare in horror. (They will say): "Woe to us! We were indeed heedless of this; nay, but we were Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)." 21:97

And those of the people of the Scripture who backed them (the disbelievers) Allah brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives. 33:26

If thou couldst but see when they will quake with terror; but then there will be no escape (for them), and they will be seized from a position (quite) near. 34:51

Of a truth ye are stronger (than they) because of the terror in their hearts, (sent) by Allah. This is because they are men devoid of understanding. 59:13

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9:5

The Day ye shall see it, every mother giving suck shall forget her suckling-babe, and every pregnant female shall drop her load (unformed): thou shalt see mankind as in a drunken riot, yet not drunk: but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah. 22:2

These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they seek to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be driven back therein, and (it will be) said to them: "Taste the torment of burning!" 22:19-22

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. 4:34

This is a very small sample. There is MUCH more and the hadiths reconfirm the horrible evil (rape, slaughter, pedophilia, terrorism, torture, slavery, selling women, etc) that Muhammed did as an example to all Muslims.
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The Qur'an does not condone or promote violence, or hate or genocide or rape or terrorism. "

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers. 3:151

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.
7:4

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 8:12

Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. 8:60

Lo! Those who chose the calf (for worship), terror from their Lord and humiliation will come upon them in the life of the world. Thus do We requite those who invent a lie. 7:152

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression! 17:60

And the true promise (Day of Resurrection) shall draw near (of fulfillment). Then (when mankind is resurrected from their graves), you shall see the eyes of the disbelievers fixedly stare in horror. (They will say): "Woe to us! We were indeed heedless of this; nay, but we were Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)." 21:97

And those of the people of the Scripture who backed them (the disbelievers) Allah brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives. 33:26

If thou couldst but see when they will quake with terror; but then there will be no escape (for them), and they will be seized from a position (quite) near. 34:51

Of a truth ye are stronger (than they) because of the terror in their hearts, (sent) by Allah. This is because they are men devoid of understanding. 59:13

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9:5

The Day ye shall see it, every mother giving suck shall forget her suckling-babe, and every pregnant female shall drop her load (unformed): thou shalt see mankind as in a drunken riot, yet not drunk: but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah. 22:2

These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they seek to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be driven back therein, and (it will be) said to them: "Taste the torment of burning!" 22:19-22

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. 4:34

This is a very small sample. There is MUCH more and the hadiths reconfirm the horrible evil (rape, slaughter, pedophilia, terrorism, torture, slavery, selling women, etc) that Muhammed did as an example to all Muslims.
Not a one of them condones or promotes hate, violence etc if you read the entire paragraph they are part of.
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Old 10-11-2015, 08:27 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,156 times
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"Not a one of them condones or promotes hate, violence etc if you read the entire paragraph they are part of."

[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists. 9:1

So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers. 9:2

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment. 9:3

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. 9:4

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 9:5

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. 9:6

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. 9:7

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. 9:8

They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. 9:9

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors. 9:10

But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know. 9:11

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. 9:12

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers. 8:13

Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people 9:14

And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise. 9:15

Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. 9:16

It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah [while] witnessing against themselves with disbelief. [For] those, their deeds have become worthless, and in the Fire they will abide eternally. 9:17

The mosques of Allah are only to be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and establish prayer and give zakah and do not fear except Allah , for it is expected that those will be of the [rightly] guided. 9:18

Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. 9:18

O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. 9:23

Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people." 9:24

Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing.
9:25

Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers and sent down soldiers angels whom you did not see and punished those who disbelieved. And that is the recompense of the disbelievers. 9:26

O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
9:28

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. 9:29

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? 9:30

And on and on and on. There is no dropping of context. Several more of the verses I posted above incite hate and violence.

What I see here is a demand to convert to Islam or be slaughtered or face eternal hell fire.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Not a one of them condones or promotes hate, violence etc if you read the entire paragraph they are part of."

[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists. 9:1

So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers. 9:2

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment. 9:3

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. 9:4

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 9:5

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. 9:6

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. 9:7

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. 9:8

They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. 9:9

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors. 9:10

But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know. 9:11

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. 9:12

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers. 8:13

Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people 9:14

And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise. 9:15

Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. 9:16

It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah [while] witnessing against themselves with disbelief. [For] those, their deeds have become worthless, and in the Fire they will abide eternally. 9:17

The mosques of Allah are only to be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and establish prayer and give zakah and do not fear except Allah , for it is expected that those will be of the [rightly] guided. 9:18

Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. 9:18

O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. 9:23

Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people." 9:24

Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing.
9:25

Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers and sent down soldiers angels whom you did not see and punished those who disbelieved. And that is the recompense of the disbelievers. 9:26

O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
9:28

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. 9:29

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? 9:30

And on and on and on. There is no dropping of context. Several more of the verses I posted above incite hate and violence.

What I see here is a demand to convert to Islam or be slaughtered or face eternal hell fire.
Quote:
What I see here is a demand to convert to Islam or be slaughtered or face eternal hell fire.
(Keep in mind, the Qur'an is not sola scripta) each surah was revealed to a particular group at a particular time at the time this was revealed the audience was well aware of who it was to and why. This can be learned from the Ahadith along with the historical records and will help with the understanding)

Surah 9 consists of 3 Discourses (Chapters/paragraphs)

The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.

The second discourse (vv., 38-72) was sent down in Rajab A. H. 9 or a little before this, when the Holy Prophet was engaged in making preparations for the Campaign, of Tabuk. In this discourse, the Believers were urged to take active part in Jihad, and the shirkers were severely rebuked for holding back their wealth and for hesitation to sacrifice their lives in the way of Allah because of their hypocrisy, weak faith or negligence.

The third discourse (vv. 73-I 29) was revealed on his return from the Campaign of Tabuk. There are some pieces in this discourse that were sent down on different occasions during the same period and were afterwards consolidated by the Holy Prophet into the Surah in accordance with inspiration from Allah. But this caused no interruption in its continuity because they dealt with the same subject and formed part of the same series of events. This discourse warns the hypocrites of their evil deeds and rebukes those Believers who had stayed behind in the Campaign of Tabuk. Then after taking them to task, Allah pardons those true Believers who had not taken part in the Jihad in the Way of Allah for one reason or the other.

Chronologically, the first discourse should have come last; but being the most important of the three in regard to its subject-matter, it was placed first in the order of compilation.
Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #9




What I see is There was a treaty made with the Mushriks (Polytheists) that they would allow the Muslims to perform Hajj at the Kabba without interference. The Mushriks broke the treaty and prevented the Muslims from performing Hajj, the message was sent to all the Arab tribes that the treaty was no longer in effect. the Mushriks were given a full year (it takes a year to complete the 4 sared months) to either vacate Mecca, convert to Islam, pay the Dhimmi tax and submit to Arab rule. After the year the presence of any Mushrik in Mecca would be considered an act of war and the non-compliant Mushriks as invading enemy soldiers.

This is not promoting violence. Actually it prevented violence as the Mushriks did abide and left Mecca.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:48 AM
 
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"This is not promoting violence."

Sure it is!

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 9:5

It's not promoting a joint pool party!

I see nothing about Muhammed trying to make peace, unless there was a forced conversion under the threat of death.

Let's look further!!

When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 167),

"[Muhammad] declared Islam publicly to his fellow tribesmen. When he did so, they did not withdraw from him or reject him in any way, as far as I have heard, until he spoke of their gods and denounced them." (al-Tabari Vol.VI, p.93)

The plot thickens!

Although asked to stop, Muhammad continued to stir up trouble by “condemning” the local religion, causing the Meccans great anxiety:
[The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 183).

"We [the Meccans] have never seen the like of what we have endured from this man [Muhammad]. He has derided our traditional values, abused our forefathers, reviled our religion, caused division among us, and insulted our gods. We have endured a great deal from him." (al-Tabari, Vol.VI p.101)

Getting thicker!

They decided to send for Muhammad and to negotiate and argue with him... When he came and sat down with them, they explained that that they had sent for him in order that they could talk together. No Arab had ever treated his tribe as Muhammad had treated them, and they repeated the charges... If it was money he wanted, they would make him the richest of them all; if it was honor, he should be their prince; if it was sovereignty, they would make him king. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 188)

WOW! This adds some context!!

Muhammad briefly agreed to their demand to cease disparaging the local gods and recognize the rights of others to their religion:

When [the Meccans] heard that, they rejoiced. What he had said about their gods pleased and delighted them, and they gave ear to him… When he came to the prostration and finished the chapter, he prostrated and the Muslims followed their prophet in it, having faith in what he brought them and obeying his command. Those mushrikūn of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque also prostrated on account of what they had heard him say about their gods. In the whole mosque there was no believer or kāfir who did not prostrate. (al-Tabari, the Tarikh Vol. 1)

How nice! But what happened next?

Next, Muhammed threatens to slaughter them ...... (Tabari Vol. IV, page 101)

Someone throttled him, Muhammed was not hurt and later he slaughtered the man who had throttled him. Real peaceful. He threatens slaughter, someone throttled him but did not hurt him, and later he slaughters the man.

The worst indignity that Muhammad endured was an episode in which Abu Jahl and others mocked him while he was praying by putting the intestines of an animal on his back (Bukhari 4:241). The men who did this were later killed by the Muslims.

Guess who broke his word? Muhammed!

"If I take an oath to do something and later on I find something else better than the first one, then I do what is better and make expiation for my oath." (Bukhari 78:618)
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