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Old 10-11-2015, 08:43 AM
 
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"I do not believe a person will be punished simply because they have been unable to find reason to believe."

You are a slippery rascal! Talk about dropping context!!!!! ROFL!

What about finding allah/Muhammed/Islam to be sickeningly evil and speaking out against Islam? I mean really, isn't it far more than "simply because they have been unable to find reason to believe"? I don't believe in anything supernatural, but it is Islam that I find the most unspeakably evil.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I do not believe a person will be punished simply because they have been unable to find reason to believe."

You are a slippery rascal! Talk about dropping context!!!!! ROFL!

What about finding allah/Muhammed/Islam to be sickeningly evil and speaking out against Islam? I mean really, isn't it far more than "simply because they have been unable to find reason to believe"? I don't believe in anything supernatural, but it is Islam that I find the most unspeakably evil.
does any of that indicate you believe God(swt) exists and that Muhammad(saws) is his final messenger?

I am quite certain, based upon your words, that you do not believe in the existence of God(swt) and that you find the Qur'an and Muhammad(saws) to be evil.

I do not find lack of Belief or erroneous belief to be punishable. Unless it is shown that the person actually believes and is stating they do not believe out of defiance. I do not believe your disbelief is out of defiance, I believe that it is because you have not found reason to believe.

If I am wrong and you actually do believe but deliberately defy the God(swt) you believe in, that is an issue you need to take up with your God.
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:34 AM
 
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This is good. You believe that your allah is a liar and the Quran is BS.

But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

O you who have believed, say not [to Allah 's Messenger], "Ra'ina" but say, "Unthurna" and listen. And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.

They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, "Fighting therein is great [sin], but averting [people] from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and [preventing access to] al-Masjid al-Haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater [evil] in the sight of Allah . And fitnah is greater than killing." And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.

Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.

Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment.

And guard yourselves against the fire which has been prepared for the unbelievers.

And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.

We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.

Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together -

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.

and indeed Hell surrounds the Unbelievers (on all sides).

Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.

Mocked were (many) messengers before thee: but I granted respite to the unbelievers, and finally I punished them: Then how (terrible) was my requital!

perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire.

But alas for the Unbelievers for a terrible penalty (their Unfaith will bring them)!-

And the Unbelievers said to their messengers: "Be sure we shall drive you out of our land, or ye shall return to our religion." But their Lord inspired (this Message) to them: "Verily We shall cause the wrong-doers to perish!

We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.

And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-

Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.

Then will the true promise draw nigh (of fulfilment): then behold! the eyes of the Unbelievers will fixedly stare in horror: "Ah! Woe to us! we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we truly did wrong!"

Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell! to it will ye (surely) come!

"Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."

They ask you to hasten on the chastisement, and most surely hell encompasses the unbelievers;

And who is more unjust than one who forges a lie against Allah, or gives the lie to the truth when it has come to him? Will not in hell be the abode of the unbelievers?

That (Allah) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with): And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.

verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,

Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.

And the Day those who disbelieved are exposed to the Fire [it will be said], "You exhausted your pleasures during your worldly life and enjoyed them, so this Day you will be awarded the punishment of [extreme] humiliation because you were arrogant upon the earth without right and because you were defiantly disobedient."

and the unbelievers shall have a painful punishment.

And the Unbelievers (will have) a humiliating Penalty,-

Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.

And on and on and on!!

Good to know that you think this is all BS and the Quran is full of lies!!
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:52 AM
 
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Is the 100 dollars a gift or not a gift?

There may be another way to look at this issue---one of morality?.....

What if it were a conditional gift---that is, if the blessings/gifts were a responsibility---these were given to us so that we may fulfill our purpose of being Khalifa (Trustees) of God. As trustees, it is our responsibility to work for the benefit of all of God's creations and to refrain from harm to God's creations.

Why would these gifts/blessings be conditional?---Because our "life" which itself is a gift/blessing---is a test.
Because it is a test--how we use these gifts/blessings is important. If we use them altruistically---"for God"---then we create benefit for all of God's creations---including ourselves...

Thus, wealth (100 dollars) could be used to take care of the needs of our family---which is a responsibility---if any left over, it can be used to take care of our extended family, our neighbors, our communities---and humanity at large....but it is not enough to use wealth for benefit---we must also refrain from using it for harm---thus we cannot invest in or give financial support to any systems, industries or businesses that cause harm.

Such a way of thinking can inform our moral actions......
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:49 AM
 
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First of all, allah does NOT exist. What you say is predicated on a false premise. I will not accept your false premise.

From there we have over a billion people who are deluded by an evil book full of nonsense and have built a religion around it. That's fine. Be deluded. Here's where the trouble starts.

This silly book demands hate and terrorism and slaughtering people who do not fall for the delusion and a goal of forcing shariah law down the throats of the whole world by any means necessary and destruction of individual rights. So Islam has terrorists and people who support terrorism and people who will not speak out against terrorism. That's the vast majority. Perhaps all.

See a problem there? Of course you don't. You are one of them.

There is no gift. Read the verses. There is an orgy for believers and everlasting and terrible torture for nonbelievers. As far as morality, take a look at Muhammed. He is your moral example. He raped a child.He raped women. He encouraged his men to mass rape women. He owned and traded slaves. He sold women. He had people slaughtered for disagreeing with him. He was a liar and a thief. He hit a child. He was a terrorist and warlord. And so on.

Any moral person would despise Muhammed. He was one of the most evil men to walk the earth.

Your concept of allah is sickening. A supposed creator of the universe who sits around torturing people who do not submit to him and watches the orgy in his 'paradise'. He likes rape of captive women and slavery and slaughter. He lies and misleads. He is obsessed with women's menses. He thinks the earth is flat and has no idea where sperm comes from or how a baby is formed. Etc.

Now, what exactly is there to discuss?

"Thus, wealth (100 dollars) could be used to take care of the needs of our family---which is a responsibility"

Yea, right. Muslims are hopping aboard the welfare systems in the countries they immigrate into.

Muslims bring terrorism and hate and destruction of individual rights. Muslims bring backwardness and genocide and slavery and perversion. How do you stack up with Nobel Prizes in science? Islam destroys, not builds. Islam cannibalizes and ruins.

Take a look at reality:

What Islam Isn't
By: Dr. Peter Hammond
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, April 21, 2008


The following is adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:40 PM
 
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Woodrow, firstly, I want to thank you for commendable patience and attitude.

Then, I have a question.

You state that God, Allah, does not need a praise. Understood.
Then how does this align with "Obligatory prayers" that all start with Allahu akbar, or praised be the lord?
I hope you see logic to my question. Something that is not required, needed, should not be "obligatory"?
Apparently, God does not need praise and did not instill it onto a human. Who then instilled "obligation"?

Respectfully asked.....
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Woodrow, firstly, I want to thank you for commendable patience and attitude.

Then, I have a question.

You state that God, Allah, does not need a praise. Understood.
Then how does this align with "Obligatory prayers" that all start with Allahu akbar, or praised be the lord?
I hope you see logic to my question. Something that is not required, needed, should not be "obligatory"?
Apparently, God does not need praise and did not instill it onto a human. Who then instilled "obligation"?

Respectfully asked.....
Thank you for the kind word.


Very good question.



The 5 Obligatory prayers are all essevtially the same, they differ in if they are to be said aloud or silently and the numer rakkats (That basically is the number of time we prostrate

I am just say those because if is easiest to show you what they are like and then explain why we benefit from them.

This is the Fajr prayer, it is our first prayer of the day and the shortest one. It is said between first light and the time the rim of the sun becomes visible aboue the horizon




Yes they are praises to Allah(swt) along with recitations from the Qur'an

But they are for our benefit not anything Allah(swt) needs

They do have a physical benefit as the movements are actually a pretty good exercise, they also help us organize the day as the times

Early morning
mid day
midafternoon
Early evening
Just before bed time

They also give a bit of a break in the day. Also help us learn about Islam as for many Muslims it is the only time they will hear parts of the Qur'an recited

You will find that most Muslims look foreward to the Salat (Obligatory prayers) Most of us feel they are very refreshing. Sort of like a short exercize session. Also because of the time they do give us a chance to stretch our muscles. I find them to be very refreshing, even though nearly always I say them at home with my wife.

They do differ from our Dua (Personal prayers), which we say whenever we want for what ever reason we want and where ever we may be. Those we say in our own words and in our language of choice.in any body posistion we desire and facing any direction.

Very often we simply say a few words such as

Allahu Akbar-God is Greater, it also means God is the Greatest.

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem (In the name of God, the most beneficent, the most merciful) which we are urged to say before we start any task or action, especially if we want to dedicate iour action to Allaah(swt)

Subhanna Allah (All praises to Allah)

Many Muslims will say longer Duas in their own languages for what ever reason they desire to.

Actually we try to consider all things we do, think or say to be a prayer.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 10-12-2015 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:01 PM
 
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Thank you for detailed explanation.
I am not sure I have answer to my question though.
As you mentioned, any prayer is, technically, a praise to a God.
God/Allah does not need praise.
Why prayers are obligatory then?
Those two statements do not match logically.
Respectfully, I do understand that faith is not always based on logic. I have mine. But it is based on logic. I am only trying to discover the logic in "praise is not needed - praise is obligatory". Ultimately, as in any other religion, any prayer, should it be only for the benefit of a praying one, praises the religion God.
Best regards. Once again, kindly grateful for your time and effort.

I'll take " I do not know" as a good answer. I know a lot, but not everything. I actually know how prayer works and why it is required. But I am trying to find how it works in your opinion and applicable to your particular religion.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:37 PM
 
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Well, it looks like allah has a dire need for praise. He demands it, tells how to give it and wallows in it.

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -
1:2

If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before). 2:239
(Interesting....allah taught people how to praise allah!)

Here is an angel of allah telling someone to praise allah.
He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah ; He does what He wills."
He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He Said, "Your sign is that you will not [be able to] speak to the people for three days except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and exalt [Him with praise] in the evening and the morning."
3:40-3:41
*If allah doesn't need praise, why does his angel demand someone exalt/praise allah?) No one ever tells people to do that for me!

6:1 [All] praise is [due] to Allah , who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light. Then those who disbelieve equate [others] with their Lord.

Allah is demanding praise! And again allah demands praise:

10:10 Their call therein will be, "Exalted are You, O Allah ," and their greeting therein will be, "Peace." And the last of their call will be, "Praise to Allah , Lord of the worlds!"

He';s the OWNER of praise!

They said: Wonderest thou at the commandment of Allah? The mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, O people of the house! Lo! He is Owner of Praise, Owner of Glory! 11:73

Good grief he even has the thunder praising him! Note the hate speech!

The thunder hymneth His praise and (so do) the angels for awe of Him. He launcheth the thunderbolts and smiteth with them whom He will while they dispute (in doubt) concerning Allah, and He is mighty in wrath. 13:13

allah tells how to praise him properly:

And indeed We have already brought you seven of the oft-repeated (i.e., the Opening Surah " Al-Fatihah", as it includes praise and laudation in seven verses) and the magnificent Qur'an.
laudation: the act of praising

Praise and more praise allah demands.

There are a lot of these verses. Just go to the Quran and search on praise!
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Thank you for detailed explanation.
I am not sure I have answer to my question though.
As you mentioned, any prayer is, technically, a praise to a God.
God/Allah does not need praise.
Why prayers are obligatory then?
Those two statements do not match logically.
Respectfully, I do understand that faith is not always based on logic. I have mine. But it is based on logic. I am only trying to discover the logic in "praise is not needed - praise is obligatory". Ultimately, as in any other religion, any prayer, should it be only for the benefit of a praying one, praises the religion God.
Best regards. Once again, kindly grateful for your time and effort.

I'll take " I do not know" as a good answer. I know a lot, but not everything. I actually know how prayer works and why it is required. But I am trying to find how it works in your opinion and applicable to your particular religion.
Thank you for pointing that out.

I completely overlooked your main question

Quote:
Why prayers are obligatory then?
My answer is I really do not know. But I can make a few guesses based upon life experience as a Christian years and now as a Muslim

1.Most theists have a desire to give to those we love and Theists love God(swt)

As we have nothing to give Allaah(swt) Allaah(swt) has provided a way we could.

2. As there are no instructions on how to pray in the Qur'an we follow the example Muhammad(saws) on how he prayed.

3. It is a way to unify Islamic communities. although there is no obligation to prayer in a Mosque. But neighbors will often join together for prayer in each other's houses. Very many, perhaps most Muslims do not pray in a Mosque.

4. The 5 obligatory prayers are probably also a test.
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