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Old 10-18-2015, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
which is correct, except the Arabic concept of religion is not the same as the English concept.

Madhab is much closer to being a Religion, in the English definition of religion than Islam is.
Alas! so you agree 'Islam' can be a verb and a noun in its respective concept.

The Madhab cannot be 'religion' as in the English definition of 'religion'.. No Way.

I'll expound the issue as follows;
1. Islam [noun] = Deen = Complete Way of Life
2. Religion [English] = Ninian Smart's 7 Dimension [7D]
How can we reconcile 1 and 2 above.

I believe the concept of 'Deen' [as what is actually mean to be in reality] is wrongly conceptualized by Islam when 'Deen' is taken as a 'Complete Way of Life' in the general sense.
Defining Islam as "'Islam [noun] = Deen = Complete Way of Life" is very messy, not precise and vulnerable to be misinterpreted.

The proper and realistic of defining Islam [noun] [Islam-R] should be as follows;

Islam [noun] = Deen [proper] + Religion [7D] + others aspect of life per Quran

The 7Ds are all represented in the Quran's 6,236 in various forms.
Therefore 'Religion' as per the English definition [per Smart's 7D] is within Islam itself.

What is Deen-proper?
Deen proper can be established from the wiki quote you posted below;

Quote:
How the term Dīn came to be used in Islamic Arabia is uncertain, but its use in modern Persian may derive etymologically from the Zoroastrian concept of Daena, as it is called in the ancient Eastern Iranian Avestan language, which represents "insight" and "revelation", and from this "conscience" and "religion". Here, Daena is the Eternal Law, which was revealed to humanity through the Mathra-Spenta ("Holy Words"). Alternatively, the Hebrew term "דין", transliterated as "dīn", means either "law" or "judgement". In the Kabbalah of Judaism, the term can, alongside "Gevurah" (cognate to the Arabic "Jabaarah"), refer to "power", and to "judgement".[3] It may be the root of the common Semitic word Madīnah (city), and of Madyan, a geographical place and a people mentioned in the Bible and in the Qur'an. Thus, Dīn does not simply mean "religion" or "faith", but refers to "Governance". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%ABn
As mentioned above, how the Dīn came to be used in Islamic Arabia is uncertain. It not only uncertain, I am very certain the term 'Din' was corrupted by Islam [in the mode it is used in the Quran] from its universal meaning.
Daena (din in modern Persian) is the eternal Law, whose order was revealed to humanity through the Mathra-Spenta ("Holy Words"). Daena has been used to mean religion, faith, law, even as a translation for the Hindu and Buddhist term Dharma, often interpreted as "duty" or social order, right conduct, or virtue. The metaphor of the 'path' of Daena is represented in Zoroastrianism by the muslin undershirt Sudra, the 'Good/Holy Path', and the 72-thread Kushti girdle, the "Pathfinder".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daena

Note I have done very extensive research in the subject of Religion and Spirituality, thus I know what 'Daena' [Zoroastrianism] Dharma [Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism] as the Eternal Law is supposed to be. This Eternal Law [in essence] is a VERY elusive concept which can be easily misinterpreted and most grasp merely the Forms most of the time. Note Dharma
Dharma ([dʱəɾmə]; Sanskrit: धर्म dharma, Pali: धम्म dhamma) is a key concept with multiple meanings in the Indian religions Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and JainismThere is no single word translation for dharma in western languages.

The Eternal Law is Tao in Taoism.
Eternal Law is universal for humanity and thus it would have been described in many in different religions. How well and precise the Eternal Law is described will depend on the spiritual maturity of the religion. Islam's 'Din' is very low in the scale.

This Eternal Law [Dharma, Tao, Daena, Din] is so difficult to interpret and put in words and this led Islam to corrupt it as described in the Quran which emphasized its form rather than the essence proper.

It is likely the more pristine 'Sufism' [not the crude sects] may grasp the idea of the Eternal Law more precisely.

The 'Deen' in Islam as generally understood via Quran-Muhammad-Gabriel-Allah is the corrupted interpretation of the universal 'Eternal Law' which is described as 'Din' Daena, Dharma, Tao & by other names, in various religions and spirituality. It is this corruption by Islam that open the Pandora box for SOME believers to open the Gates of Hell on Earth.

Wow.. I just notice that is some scholarship on interfaith.
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Old 10-19-2015, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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there is only one Arabic definition for the word Islam. That being the action of "Submitting to Allah" however for about the first 300 years of written Arabic words were written without vowels and just the firs, middle and last consanant of the root word. Islam, salam, and several other words were written with just the letters Sin, Lam, Meem (S-L-M) the difference were in the pronunciation which is why the oral transmission of the Qur'an is so important to us.

The concept of verbs and nouns is not as clearly devined in Arabic as most words can be used as any part of speech. but are usually used in a specific manner.
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Old 10-19-2015, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
there is only one Arabic definition for the word Islam. That being the action of "Submitting to Allah" however for about the first 300 years of written Arabic words were written without vowels and just the firs, middle and last consanant of the root word. Islam, salam, and several other words were written with just the letters Sin, Lam, Meem (S-L-M) the difference were in the pronunciation which is why the oral transmission of the Qur'an is so important to us.

The concept of verbs and nouns is not as clearly devined in Arabic as most words can be used as any part of speech. but are usually used in a specific manner.
Note,
Language is the ability to acquire and use complex systems of communication, particularly the human ability to do so, and a language is any specific example of such a system. The scientific study of language is called linguistics. -wiki

You (only you) in your limited interpretations of Islam as above is insulting Arabic as a language.

Philosophy of language is concerned with four central problems: the nature of meaning, language use, language cognition, and the relationship between language and reality.

Language is universal and can be studied on a universal generic basis via the Philosophy of Language [a very sophisticated field]. Nouns and verbs are not specifically own by 'English' nor Western but denote some universal representations, i.e. noun - things, subject, and verb - action, etc.

Thus the term word 'Islam' is used as a verb [action] and noun - a set comprising doctrines, practices, etc. as solely in the Quran revealed to Muhammad [over 23 years 610-632 AD] via Gabriel directly from Allah.

Suggest you read the article linked to this again,
From S-L-M to Islam

The term Islam stems from the fourth form of the verb, which literally transliterated would be i-s-l-m, and it means "to surrender." The verbal noun of this verb form always inserts an "a" between the third and fourth letters, which results in the word "Islam," or "submission."
The proper noun Islam, the definite article, is preceded by the article "al," which is the Arabic version of "the." Therefore, the religion of Islam, in Arabic, is known as Al-Islam.
Etymology of Islam | People - Opposing Views

As I had mentioned before, you just cannot rely on some Arabic Dictionary [lexicography, semantics] but have to view it from the perspective of language and how the word is used by Scholars in the studies of Islam.
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Old 10-20-2015, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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From the link you provided:


The Root S-L-M

In its perfect form, the root s-l-m -- the verbal root of Islam -- is a verb that means to be safe and secure. According to The Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Arabic, the perfect form of this verb can also mean to be unharmed, unimpaired, intact, safe, secure, unobjectionable, blameless, faultless, certain, established, clearly proven or free. It can also mean to escape danger. The simplest noun derived from this root -- salam -- simply means peace.
From S-L-M to Islam

The term Islam stems from the fourth form of the verb, which literally transliterated would be i-s-l-m, and it means "to surrender." The verbal noun of this verb form always inserts an "a" between the third and fourth letters, which results in the word "Islam," or "submission." The proper noun Islam, the definite article, is preceded by the article "al," which is the Arabic version of "the." Therefore, the religion of Islam, in Arabic, is known as Al-Islam.
Understanding the Fourth Form of a Verb
The fourth form is causative, meaning one can, in many cases, place the words "to cause" or "to make" in front of the first form of the verb. The fourth form of s-l-m can literally mean "to make safe," but according to the Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Arabic, in addition to submission, it can also mean to forsake, to abandon, to resign or to become a Muslim. The fourth form verb is nearly identical to the second form verb -- both are causative, but the fourth form has a connotation of becoming full or causing fullness, and it is common in religious language.

Which does not seem to differ from Arabic dictionaries.

But it does contain an assumption and a qualifier. The assumption being that al-Muslim is commonly used by scholars and the qualifier being that with the al prefix al-Islam can be a noun.--which is correct al-Islam can benoun meaning "the surrender"
We can begin with the Qur'an Islam is found in 6 places, Using the transliteration and Pickthall's

3:19
Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi alislamu wama ikhtalafa allatheena ootoo alkitaba illa min baAAdi ma jaahumu alAAilmu baghyan baynahum waman yakfur biayati Allahi fainna Allaha sareeAAu alhisabi

Lo! religion with Allah (is) The Surrender (to His will and guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) Lo! Allah is swift at reckoning. - 3:19 (Picktall)
Notice alislamu is translated as "the surrender" not as a name.


3:85
Waman yabtaghi ghayra alislami deenan falan yuqbala minhu wahuwa fee alakhirati mina alkhasireena

And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. - 3:85 (Picktall)
again is is not used as a name

5:3
Hurrimat AAalaykumu almaytatu waalddamu walahmu alkhinzeeri wama ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi waalmunkhaniqatu waalmawqoothatu waalmutaraddiyatu waalnnateehatu wama akala alssabuAAu illa ma thakkaytum wama thubiha AAala alnnusubi waan tastaqsimoo bialazlami thalikum fisqun alyawma yaisa allatheena kafaroo min deenikum fala takhshawhum waikhshawni alyawma akmaltu lakum deenakum waatmamtu AAalaykum niAAmatee waradeetu lakumu alislama deenan famani idturra fee makhmasatin ghayra mutajanifin liithmin fainna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swine flesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 5:3 (Picktall)
Here it does seem Pickthal is using alislama as a Name.

6:125
Faman yuridi Allahu an yahdiyahu yashrah sadrahu lilislami waman yurid an yudillahu yajAAal sadrahu dayyiqan harajan kaannama yassaAAAAadu fee alssamai kathalika yajAAalu Allahu alrrijsa AAala allatheena la yuminoona

And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not. - 6:125 (Picktall)
Here he is translating lilislami as "the surrender"

39:22
Afaman sharaha Allahu sadrahu lilislami fahuwa AAala noorin min rabbihi fawaylun lilqasiyati quloobuhum min thikri Allahi olaika fee dalalin mubeenin

Is he whose bosom Allah hath expanded for the Surrender (unto Him), so that he followeth a light from His Lord, (as he who disbelieveth)? Then woe unto those whose hearts are hardened against remembrance of Allah. Such are in plain error. - 39:22 (Picktall)
again lilislami is not being used as a proper name.

61:7
Waman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi alkathiba wahuwa yudAAa ila alislami waAllahu la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

And who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah when he is summoned unto Al-Islam. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. - 61:7 (Picktall)
Here he is using alislami as a proper noun.

Interesting out of 6 times he uses it as a Name in places but not in the other 4.
In a case like this you look to see what other translators have to say about 6:125 and 61:7
6:125
And whomsoever God wills to guide, his bosom He opens wide with willingness towards self-surrender [unto Him]; and whomsoever He wills to let go astray, his bosom He causes to be tight and constricted, as if he were climbing unto the skies: it is thus that God inflicts horror upon those who will not believe. - 6:125 (Asad)

Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe. - 6:125 (Y. Ali)
61:7
And who could be more wicked than one who invents [such] a lie about [a message from] God, seeing that he is [but] being called to self-surrender unto Him? But God does not bestow His guidance upon evil-doing folk. - 61:7 (Asad)

Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong. - 61:7 (Y. Ali)

Ali does seem to agree with Pickthall.

This does leave open the possibility the Qur'an is assigning a name to the religion.

However, no where does it specifically state Islam is a name. which in arabic is ism or ismi.

Now we can look at the historical usage of Islam as a proper name for a religion.

We do know that for centuries the Western world refrred to our de'en as Mohammedism and the adherents as Mohammadans.

As recently as 1910 Mohhamadism was considered the proper name of Islam by the Catholic Church.
Mohammed and Mohammedanism
To complement this article, which was taken from the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia, New Advent recommends a prayerful reading of "Nostra Aetate" from the Second Vatican Council.
The founder
Mohammed, "the Praised One", the prophet of Islam and the founder of Mohammedanism, was born at Mecca (20 August?) A.D. 570.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mohammed and Mohammedanism (Islam)


The point being no where in the Qur'an, Sunnah and Ahadith is their a name given for the De'en we follow. But there have been names for the madhabs, which are what we learn how to perfom the act of Islam.
While it has always been agreed upon that all who profess to be Muslim perform the action of Islam, there is nothing in Islamic literature that states the name of our religion is Islam. The name seems to be a Christian innovation couple with the desire for labels.
In Voltair's Play "Manomet" we find we are called Mohammadans.

It has only been in recent times our practice has become commonly called Islam by. This seems to be the result of wanting to put a label on those of us who perform Islam.
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The point being no where in the Qur'an, Sunnah and Ahadith is their a name given for the De'en we follow. But there have been names for the madhabs, which are what we learn how to perfom the act of Islam.
While it has always been agreed upon that all who profess to be Muslim perform the action of Islam, there is nothing in Islamic literature that states the name of our religion is Islam. The name seems to be a Christian innovation couple with the desire for labels.
In Voltair's Play "Manomet" we find we are called Mohammadans.

It has only been in recent times our practice has become commonly called Islam by. This seems to be the result of wanting to put a label on those of us who perform Islam.
In reply to the above, note my explanation on why the term 'Islam' can be both a 'noun' and a 'verb'
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41631899-post3.html

You seem to so particular about the name.
Note the point "a Rose by any name .... "
The critical point here is the concept involved.

You may see the issue clearer if we approach it from this perspective,
Amongst the 7 billion humans on Earth, there is a common set of practices that all humans practices of producing and eating food for nutrition. We can easily label and accept this as 'Food' or 'Nutrition'.

Amongst the 7 billion humans on Earth, there is a common set of practices that the majority [80%] that is general term 'religious' or 'spiritual' as represented by places of worships, acts of worship by people, peripherals involve in worshipping, texts related to worshipping, and many other common elements. Such set of activities are obvious.
The point here is instead of describing all the details involving worshipping and all these spiritual and religious activities, it is more effective to identify them as a set and label them with a word. What is critical here is the set of common real activities involved and not the word.

The general approach is this common set of religious/spiritual activities is normally labeled as a 'Religion.' Btw it could be called any other name in the same or any other language but what is critical is the real set of actual activities performed.

So as far at they have the common set of activities, worshipping, etc. we can call them 'Religion' or whatever that is acceptable.

However if a particular set has additional features which are different from the others, e.g. worshipping in a Mosque is different from worshipping in an Indian Temple. In such a case we have to add a predicate to the 'Religion', i.e. Religion of Islam as different from Religion of Hinduism.

The point here is not because we choose to label, it is essential that we label and qualify accordingly because communication is a critical element of humanity's progress and well being.

Btw, 3:5 and 5:3 do describe al-Islam [noun] to represent the 'deen' which contain that concept of 'religion' [or whatever name we give it] that is generic to all major religions. We do this because communication is a critical element of humanity's progress and well being, otherwise your refusal to do this is because of an intention to be vague and deceptive*.
* I understand this is because you are in the state of the 'Inoculation Theory' [Mcquire's].
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