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Old 10-13-2015, 02:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I believe I have resolved the confusions on the definition of what is Islam.
To avoid confusions I propose we define 'Islam' in the following four perspectives and one need to qualify the specific perspective [use the right suffix] whenever one use the term 'Islam.'

islam-v
islam-v [verb – no cap] is submission to God.
If islam is to be used as verb, i.e. submission to God, then we should use it is small letters.
We can label this as islam-v. Thus if any program forces a capital "I" onto it, the "v" will tell us our intended use of the word as a verb.

Islam-R
Islam-R [religion-proper as noun in cap] - Islam-R is a monotheistic,Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an { including islam-v as submission and religious deen elements}, a religious text considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Allāh), as revealed to Muhammad.
This definition of Islam [with capital 'I"] is what we would consider Islam as the religion-proper within the terms of this 'Religion & Spiritual' Forum.
Since Islam is also a 'deen,' [including other elements of life] we should add say 'R' to Islam, i.e. Islam-R to identify that we are using it in terms of its religiosity elements and not others.

Islam-D
Islam-D [as specific deen] –Islam is a specific encompassing way-of-life including ‘Islam-the-religion’ Islam-R and containing within it ‘islam’ [1] as submission.
Islam-D represent an encompassing way-of-life including ‘Islam-the-religion’ Islam-R and containing within it ‘islam-v as submission plus other elements of life, social, economics, political, etc.
We can label this Islam as Islam-D.
Therefore Islam-D is mentioned the intention is to denote Islam-R + other elements of life.
The other term for this is 'millat', i.e. the millat of Abraham is different in forms from the millat of Muhammad and others.

Islam-G
Islam-G [as generic deen] –Islam is the generic encompassing way-of-life including ‘Islam-the-religion’ Islam-R and containing within it ‘islam-v as submission .
This is the generic encompassing way of life that is common to the Arabs and those related to the prophets of old [Abraham and others] before Muhammad.
We can label this as Islam-G.






I believe if we follow the above, we will be able to avoid the confusions that arise from conflations of the above perspective when we use the term 'islam.'

Is there any perspective that I could have missed but relevant?

Views?

Last edited by Continuum; 10-13-2015 at 03:12 AM..
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Old 10-13-2015, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The following post is how I would apply the above.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41551164-post46.html

It is ineffective to generalize in a question like 'What is Wrong with Islam?'
Before we answer the question we need to get a thorough and precise meaning to the term 'Islam' that is relevant to the issue.

I have defined Islam in its various perspective here.
The Various Definitions of Islam i.e.

1. islam-v as a verb re 'submit' or 'surrender' to God
2. Islam-G as a generic Deen, i.e. a complete way of life
3. Islam-D as a Deen a complete way of life per the Quran and Muhammad
4. Islam-R as a religion within the Deen [3]
5. Islam-RG as a generic religion without the total Deen [3].

If Islam is taken as Islam-RG, as a generic religion without the total Deen [3], then there is nothing very wrong with it as the majority of humans [in the current phase] need a religion to deal and make sense of life.
Without Deen [3] a Muslim will practice a religion-proper as understood by the majority plus using basic human values.

However when Islam is taken and practiced as Islam-R, then we have a problem which is confined to SOME part of the 'Deen' and SOME evil prone believers.
What is wrong with Islam-R [within Deen re Quran and Muhammad] is part of the Deen comprised evil laden elements and the martial ethos of the historical Muhammad.
The critical problem is Islam-R cannot be independent of its Deen, and thus the evil elements within the Deen [ideology] will influenced by evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence.
It is because the religion cannot be separated from its Deen that present a case of hopelessness in the face of the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME believers.

It is within the above settings that raise the necessary question 'What is wrong with Islam?'
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Old 10-15-2015, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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How as de'en means life.One can not remove De'en.

A person's De'en is everything they do.

Their beliefs or no beliefs are simply part of their de'en.

It is possible to remove something from your de'en but you can not remove de'en.

Sort of like saying you can remove the cup from a cup of water.

Islam is our De'en as every facet of our de'en is in submission to Allaah(swt)
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
1. How as de'en means life.One can not remove De'en.
2. A person's De'en is everything they do.
3. Their beliefs or no beliefs are simply part of their de'en.
4. It is possible to remove something from your de'en but you can not remove de'en.
5. Sort of like saying you can remove the cup from a cup of water.
6. Islam is our De'en as every facet of our de'en is in submission to Allaah(swt)
I have listed and bolded the above for easy reference.

I totally agree with 1 to 5 in principle but 6 does not follow.

Here is the undisputable truth when we start with the fundamental generic human DNA;

1. How as DNA [whole] means human life. One can not remove the human DNA.
2. A person's DNA is everything they do.
3. Their beliefs or no beliefs are simply part of their DNA.
4. It is possible to remove something from your DNA [by splicing] but you can not remove the whole-DNA.
5. Sort of like saying you can remove the cup [DNA] from a cup of water [person].

Therefore regardless of religion or any thing else the above is applicable to ALL humans.

Islam as Deen [Islam-G] cannot fit in with 1-5 because
Islam-G as a generic Deen is a complete way of life.
A way of life is DNA + Nurture.
In a 'way of life' the whole of the DNA cannot be changed but we can change what is Nurtured.
Therefore we can change 'the way of life' but not the inherent DNA.
We can present Islam-G i.e. generic Deen as DNA + Way of Life.

According to my elaboration, thus
Islam-R [Islam as a Religion] is Deen as 'DNA + Islamic Complete Way of Life [per Quran and Muhammad]'
The point here is Islam-R claim the Way of Life is a Complete Way of Life.

A comparison and contrast with Eastern Religion may give a clearer picture, e.g. Buddhism and Hinduism has the term 'Dharma' which is equivalent to the 'Deen' but there is a difference in quality.
Thus for the main Eastern Religion we have

Buddhism-R is Religion as Dharma = DNA + Partial Buddhist Way of Life [per Buddha and Sutras] + human values.

compared to;
Islam-R as Deen = DNA + Islamic Complete Way of Life [per Quran and Muhammad]

Therefore my main point is when Muslims claim Islam is Deen, i.e. Islam-D, it is imperative they have to refer to the generic human DNA plus the critical elements of the Quran and Muhammad.
There cannot be a 'Deen' in the current sense without the elements of the Quran and Muhammad.

Muslims claimed there is a 'generic Deen' within all prophets prior to Muhammad but there is no written trace of the original version of this 'generic Deen.' The original pure generic 'Deen' in its completeness is lost forever because they were corrupted as whatever in written in the current texts form. The only available Deen is represented in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad and communicated to its current form intact from the original.
This is what the Quran and Muslims are claiming but such a claim is wrong!

My point, when Muslims refer to 'Deen' it must be explained in the above elaborate manner, else the discussion will diverge off tangent.
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Old 10-15-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have listed and bolded the above for easy reference.

I totally agree with 1 to 5 in principle but 6 does not follow.

Here is the undisputable truth when we start with the fundamental generic human DNA;

1. How as DNA [whole] means human life. One can not remove the human DNA.
2. A person's DNA is everything they do.
3. Their beliefs or no beliefs are simply part of their DNA.
4. It is possible to remove something from your DNA [by splicing] but you can not remove the whole-DNA.
5. Sort of like saying you can remove the cup [DNA] from a cup of water [person].

Therefore regardless of religion or any thing else the above is applicable to ALL humans.

Islam as Deen [Islam-G] cannot fit in with 1-5 because
Islam-G as a generic Deen is a complete way of life.
A way of life is DNA + Nurture.
In a 'way of life' the whole of the DNA cannot be changed but we can change what is Nurtured.
Therefore we can change 'the way of life' but not the inherent DNA.
We can present Islam-G i.e. generic Deen as DNA + Way of Life.

According to my elaboration, thus
Islam-R [Islam as a Religion] is Deen as 'DNA + Islamic Complete Way of Life [per Quran and Muhammad]'
The point here is Islam-R claim the Way of Life is a Complete Way of Life.

A comparison and contrast with Eastern Religion may give a clearer picture, e.g. Buddhism and Hinduism has the term 'Dharma' which is equivalent to the 'Deen' but there is a difference in quality.
Thus for the main Eastern Religion we have

Buddhism-R is Religion as Dharma = DNA + Partial Buddhist Way of Life [per Buddha and Sutras] + human values.

compared to;
Islam-R as Deen = DNA + Islamic Complete Way of Life [per Quran and Muhammad]

Therefore my main point is when Muslims claim Islam is Deen, i.e. Islam-D, it is imperative they have to refer to the generic human DNA plus the critical elements of the Quran and Muhammad.
There cannot be a 'Deen' in the current sense without the elements of the Quran and Muhammad.

Muslims claimed there is a 'generic Deen' within all prophets prior to Muhammad but there is no written trace of the original version of this 'generic Deen.' The original pure generic 'Deen' in its completeness is lost forever because they were corrupted as whatever in written in the current texts form. The only available Deen is represented in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad and communicated to its current form intact from the original.
This is what the Quran and Muslims are claiming but such a claim is wrong!

My point, when Muslims refer to 'Deen' it must be explained in the above elaborate manner, else the discussion will diverge off tangent.
I will agree my #6 is a difficult concept. But it is because in Arabic Religion and life are not seperate. There is only one word for religion and life. The closest Arabic word to Religion is Madhab. but a madhab is not the same as De'en.

Islam is the action of submitting fully to God(swt). That does not mean simply in regards to any specific religious practice. Islam does not equate to religion in the English definition of religion. Islam is one's de'en.

The methodology which closely resembles the English definition of religion as that is how a Muslim expresses the Religions aspect of deen. As I have said before that would be anyone of the following:

Hanafi
Hanbali
Shafi'i
Maliki
Jafa'ari
Ismaili
Twelver
Sufi
Deobandi
Wahhabi
Salafi
Ahmadyyah
NOI
ISIS although they follow an extreme form of Wahhabi, I believe they have taken on sufficient difference to say they are no longer Wahhabi.
Plus' many more.


Each of which claims to be Islam. While the Majority of us believe that everyone who claims to be Muslim is to be considered Muslim, We all believe only our own flavor performs Islam properly.

Your scenario would probably work, if Islam was a single, form of practice, but it isn't.
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Old 10-16-2015, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I will agree my #6 is a difficult concept. But it is because in Arabic Religion and life are not seperate. There is only one word for religion and life. The closest Arabic word to Religion is Madhab. but a madhab is not the same as De'en.
I did not imply #6 is a difficult concept. I am saying it is a wrong concept.

1. I understand most Muslims view Religion and life as not distinctly separate.
What I am saying is this is a very ineffective approach to life especially in the modern era.
[repeat] The Muslims' [some or most] insistence that Religion must be fully integrated with one whole life is a VERY inferior and ineffective approach to human life especially in the modern era.

2. The Quran labeled this full integration of religious elements with one's whole life as 'Deen.'
For easy reference I labeled it as Islam-D, i.e. a complete way of life per the Quran and Muhammad
Thus Islam-D is a way of life that comprised Islamic religious elements and Islamic way of life in accordance to the Quran as revealed to Muhammad.
Do you agree with this labeling?

I believe if Islam-D is not taken as a way of life and imperatively include the religious elements, the world would have been a better place with less of the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims being inspired by SOME evil laden elements in the holy texts.

The purpose of religion-proper is purely for soteriological and eschatological reasons [need an OP to discuss this] and these should be distinctly separate from other aspects of life, especially politics and wars. When the other religions do not include their religion as a complete way of life [especially separate politics from religion] in the present era, they [by their own holy texts] do not inspire their believers to evils and violence.


Quote:
Islam is the action of submitting fully to God(swt). That does not mean simply in regards to any specific religious practice. Islam does not equate to religion in the English definition of religion. Islam is one's de'en.
The methodology which closely resembles the English definition of religion as that is how a Muslim expresses the Religions aspect of deen. As I have said before that would be anyone of the following:
If you understand my post you would be able to slot the above within the following definitions;
1. islam-v as a verb re 'submit' or 'surrender' to God
2. Islam-G as a generic Deen, i.e. a complete way of life
3. Islam-D as a Deen a complete way of life per the Quran and Muhammad
4. Islam-R as a religion within the Deen [3]
5. Islam-RG as a generic religion without the total Deen [3].
Islam as action is merely islam-v as a verb.
Therefore you should have written the following;
"Islam [islam-v] is the action of submitting fully to God(swt)."
This is more precise and cause less confusions.

Islam as a Religion as with the English definition is described within the Quran and is comprised in more than 80% of the verse of the Quran [I have done this analysis] and they comprised the eschatological, worshipping, duty as Muslims and doctrinal elements.

The Madhabs are merely expositions, explanatory notes and guidelines which are secondary to the religion [per English def.] of Islam

Quote:
ISIS although they follow an extreme form of Wahhabi, I believe they have taken on sufficient difference to say they are no longer Wahhabi.
Plus' many more.
This is the wrong view.
Whether the followers of ISIS are Muslims [1st class, average or laggards] will depend on how much they comply with the terms and conditions of the covenant within the Quran and no where else. The Hadiths are merely explanatory notes not the revealed words of Allah.
Do you dispute this?

Quote:
Each of which claims to be Islam. While the Majority of us believe that everyone who claims to be Muslim is to be considered Muslim, We all believe only our own flavor performs Islam properly.
You as a human being is not qualified to define what is a Muslim.
The only way to define a Muslim and their compliance as a 1st class, average, laggard or hypocrite is in accordance to what is within the 6,236 verses of the Quran and no where else.
Do you dispute this?
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I did not imply #6 is a difficult concept. I am saying it is a wrong concept.

1. I understand most Muslims view Religion and life as not distinctly separate.
What I am saying is this is a very ineffective approach to life especially in the modern era.
[repeat] The Muslims' [some or most] insistence that Religion must be fully integrated with one whole life is a VERY inferior and ineffective approach to human life especially in the modern era.
Without performing every aspect of a person's life as an act of submission to Allaah(swt) a person is not fully performing Islam.A muslim even brushes his teeth as if it was a prayer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. The Quran labeled this full integration of religious elements with one's whole life as 'Deen.'
For easy reference I labeled it as Islam-D, i.e. a complete way of life per the Quran and Muhammad
Thus Islam-D is a way of life that comprised Islamic religious elements and Islamic way of life in accordance to the Quran as revealed to Muhammad.
Do you agree with this labeling?
I disagree as that is thinking of Islam as being a noun.

You have to think of Islam as a verb, not as a Noun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe if Islam-D is not taken as a way of life and imperatively include the religious elements, the world would have been a better place with less of the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims being inspired by SOME evil laden elements in the holy texts.
What you are stating is an impossibility. You can not think of islam as being a Noun. It is an individual act of an individual submitting to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability and knowledge. A Muslim whose only knowledge of Islam is that there is one God(swt) and strives to serve Him is a much better and more esteemed muslim then the one who knows every aspect of the Qur'an, Ahadith,Sunnah, Sira etc but only submits with 99% of his abiity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The purpose of religion-proper is purely for soteriological and eschatological reasons [need an OP to discuss this] and these should be distinctly separate from other aspects of life, especially politics and wars. When the other religions do not include their religion as a complete way of life [especially separate politics from religion] in the present era, they [by their own holy texts] do not inspire their believers to evils and violence.
Islam is when you dedicate every aspect of your life as an act of submission to Allaah(swt) everything we do should be done with the reverence of a prayer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you understand my post you would be able to slot the above within the following definitions;
1. islam-v as a verb re 'submit' or 'surrender' to God
2. Islam-G as a generic Deen, i.e. a complete way of life
3. Islam-D as a Deen a complete way of life per the Quran and Muhammad
4. Islam-R as a religion within the Deen [3]
5. Islam-RG as a generic religion without the total Deen [3].


If you want to understand how Muslims view Islam you will have to ask individual Muslims. It seems you are trying to define Islam in your terminology.

A De'en is not applicable to just islam, it is all life syles and methodologies. Atheism is your De'en. I doubt you would say you are following a religion, but atheism is still your De'en

Actually I think if you look closely at what atheism entails you will find it is very similar to Islam in terms of structure and organization. We have identical structure and organization---none.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam as action is merely islam-v as a verb.
Therefore you should have written the following;
"Islam [islam-v] is the action of submitting fully to God(swt)."
This is more precise and cause less confusions.
That is What Islam is, the other meanings you are ascribing are your own concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam as a Religion as with the English definition is described within the Quran and is comprised in more than 80% of the verse of the Quran [I have done this analysis] and they comprised the eschatological, worshipping, duty as Muslims and doctrinal elements.
I believe that is a view used by the Qurani (Quran only Muslims) which most of us feel are falling short in the performance of Islam as the very basic beliefs and obligations are not taught in the Qur'an but come from the Teachings of Muhammad(saws) as compliled in the Madhabs. In the Sunni view that would be Maliki, Hanafi, Hanbali and Shai'i. Each considered equal but each has minor differences



Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Madhabs are merely expositions, explanatory notes and guidelines which are secondary to the religion [per English def.] of Islam
While the Qur'an tells us to perform Islam, it is vague in telling us how. Which necessitates the madhabs. By studying a Madhab is where one learsn how Muhammad(saws) understood and lived Islam. While we are told in the Qur'an to obey the Teachings of Muhammad(saws) it is in the Madhabs we learn how Muhammad(saws) did such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is the wrong view.
Whether the followers of ISIS are Muslims [1st class, average or laggards] will depend on how much they comply with the terms and conditions of the covenant within the Quran and no where else. The Hadiths are merely explanatory notes not the revealed words of Allah.
Do you dispute this?
That is your definition of Islam, not how it is defined or understood by Arabic lexicons or most Islamic Scholars. Islam has to be seen primarily used as a verb and meaning "Submitting to God(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge." It is only very loosely used as a noun in a very vague sense as the name of a Religion.

The Hadith Qudsi are believed to be the actual revelations of Allaah(swt) those are the Hadith that were revealed to Muhammad(swt) but not as part of the Qur'an. It is generally accepted there are 40 of them, possibly more. But typically only those 40 are considered to be Qudsi.

The Hadith Qudsi, or sacred hadith, have a particularly important status because their meaning is entirely from Allah (swt) while the wording is that of the Prophet Muhammad (s) himself. For each of the eighty hadith presented, the Arabic original has been printed alongside the English translation, which has earned a reputation for its scholastic accuracy and readability
SacredHadith.com Ľ -What is Hadith Qudsi





Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You as a human being is not qualified to define what is a Muslim.
The only way to define a Muslim and their compliance as a 1st class, average, laggard or hypocrite is in accordance to what is within the 6,236 verses of the Quran and no where else.
Do you dispute this?
No I can not define it. However I can use the Arabic dictionaries for the definition of De'en, Madhab, Islam etc. The are quite a bit different from how the english dictionaries define them. As they are Arabic words, I believe one needs to use the Arabic and not English meanings.
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I think this is an interesting discussion which we should get to the bottom of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Without performing every aspect of a person's life as an act of submission to Allaah(swt) a person is not fully performing Islam. A muslim even brushes his teeth as if it was a prayer.
1. I can agree if we refer to the human DNA, breathing and other elements which are imperative for every aspects and survival of our human life.

Submission to Allah [which do not exists] cannot be an all encompassing act in every aspect of the human life. Whilst such an act can be useful to many psychologically, it is a double-edged blade for them as such submission also manifests evils and violence from SOME believers
Psychologically, being in a subservient state to anything at all times in never a good state to be in for any human being.
The fact that there are other humans who are very progressive without 'submitting to a god' prove that submission to god is not a compulsory and imperative element of human life and survival.

Quote:
I disagree as that is thinking of Islam as being a noun.
You have to think of Islam as a verb, not as a Noun.
2. From what I note you are the only one who insist 'Islam' is solely a verb, i.e. action.

The point is to ensure effective communications one must clearly define the terms involved.
Note the various definitions I have presented and they are correct as long as they are qualified.
Islam is only a verb if you refer to it as the act of submitting and I have coined the term 'islam-v' to denote it.

Quote:
What you are stating is an impossibility. You can not think of islam as being a Noun. It is an individual act of an individual submitting to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability and knowledge. A Muslim whose only knowledge of Islam is that there is one God(swt) and strives to serve Him is a much better and more esteemed muslim then the one who knows every aspect of the Qur'an, Ahadith,Sunnah, Sira etc but only submits with 99% of his ability.
3. If you insist islam is a verb, should NEVER use 'Islam' with a capital "I" from now on.

To me it is a matter of semantics and meanings of word.
I can use a word is any sense [noun, verb, adjective, etc.] as long as I qualify and explain it and it is understood by the majority.

In fact the Quran use Islam as a noun in various contexts.
Therefore the Quran use the term 'Islam' as a noun and a verb in different contexts.
So I don't see how you as a human [not Allah] can insist islam is only a verb.

I shall wait you can carry one with such an insistence, i.e. islam is solely a verb with a small "i".

Quote:
Islam is when you dedicate every aspect of your life as an act of submission to
Allaah(swt) everything we do should be done with the reverence of a prayer.
Note my reply in (1) above.

Quote:
If you want to understand how Muslims view Islam you will have to ask individual Muslims. It seems you are trying to define Islam in your terminology.

A De'en is not applicable to just islam, it is all life syles and methodologies. Atheism is your De'en. I doubt you would say you are following a religion, but atheism is still your De'en

Actually I think if you look closely at what atheism entails you will find it is very similar to Islam in terms of structure and organization. We have identical structure and organization---none.
In such a case, the last thing we should do is to refer to an individual Muslim.
I am not using my own terminology, I understood "Islam' as represented in the 6,236 verses of the Quran and no where else.

I understand what Deen means.
It meant a complete way of life as driven by a basic ideology.
Atheism [non-theist] is cannot be a way of life.
Those who are atheists may follow a Deen like communism, fascism, Nazism, or any of the likes.

My point is to live life as solely driven by a Deen is not effective and can be a threat to humanity.
This is especially worse if the Deen is based on an immutable ideology, like Islam, the evidence of evil and violence from SOME believers are already glaringly bad.
All the other deens [ideologies] like fascism, Nazism have already been condemned and vanquished. Communism is on its way out. Islamism as a 'deen' should be next in line.


Quote:
That is What Islam is, the other meanings you are ascribing are your own
concepts.
"Islam [islam-v] is the action of submitting fully to God(swt)."
If you insist the above is 'islam' you should use 'islam' with small "i" all the time to denote it is a verb and not a noun.
I agree with your view on this. I mentioned as a matter of semantics, it depends on how we qualify, explain and use the word in the right context a noun, verb or whatever.

Quote:
I believe that is a view used by the Qurani (Quran only Muslims) which most of us feel are falling short in the performance of Islam as the very basic beliefs and obligations are not taught in the Qur'an but come from the Teachings of Muhammad(saws) as compliled in the Madhabs. In the Sunni view that would be Maliki, Hanafi, Hanbali and Shai'i. Each considered equal but each has minor differences.
Btw, I am not supporting the Quran-Only-Muslims' views who totally reject the Hadiths and others sources.
My view is a Muslim can use whatever sources BUT it MUST ultimately comply with the 6,236 verses of the Quran, the only accessible words of God revealed to Muhammad.
I believe the different Madhabs [where they differ from the Quran] are against what is original pristine Islam. Note the verses below and in other verses in the Quran where such acts are condemned, [mine]
30:31. Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty [as Muslims] unto Him, and establish worship, and be not of those [infidels] who ascribe partners (unto Him);
30:32. of those [infidels] who split up their religion [deenahum] and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets.
Quote:
While the Qur'an tells us to perform Islam, it is vague in telling us how. Which
necessitates the madhabs. By studying a Madhab is where one learn how
Muhammad(saws) understood and lived Islam. While we are told in the Qur'an to
obey the Teachings of Muhammad(saws) it is in the Madhabs we learn how
Muhammad(saws) did such.
The Quran claims itself to the sole guide for Muslims, and Muhammad is not a warder nor a guide for Muslims.
Like I say above, one can refer to Muhammad's historical autobiography, etc. but ultimately whatever is to be followed and count in the Sijjin on J-Day must comply absolutely with the Quran's 6,236 verses.
In PRINCIPLE [note this] to significantly follow what Muhammad did is totally wrong as Muhammad like any human being is vulnerable to sin. There is also a danger of Muslims being misled to idolizing Muhammad besides Allah, thus a Great Sin.
To make the Madhabs and its text as essential and imperative to Islam is a sin as mentioned in 30:31-32 and elsewhere.

Quote:
That is your definition of Islam, not how it is defined or understood by Arabic
lexicons or most Islamic Scholars. Islam has to be seen primarily used as a verb
and meaning "Submitting to God(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge."
It is only very loosely used as a noun in a very vague sense as the name of a
Religion.

No I can not define it. However I can use the Arabic dictionaries for the definition of De'en, Madhab, Islam etc. The are quite a bit different from how the english dictionaries define them. As they are Arabic words, I believe one needs to use the Arabic and not English meanings.
The principles of Semantics and Lexicography are universal to all human being whether they are Arabic or otherwise.
In fact it is too limited to refer 'islam' merely from a dictionary. You should refer 'Islam' from how the expert Scholars use the term in Islamic Theology, Religion and philosophy rather than merely the dictionary.

Quote:
The Hadith Qudsi are believed to be the actual revelations of Allaah(swt) those
are the Hadith that were revealed to Muhammad(swt) but not as part of the
Qur'an. It is generally accepted there are 40 of them, possibly more. But
typically only those 40 are considered to be Qudsi.

The Hadith Qudsi, or sacred hadith, have a particularly important status because their meaning is entirely from Allah (swt) while the wording is that of the Prophet Muhammad (s) himself. For each of the eighty hadith presented, the Arabic original has been printed alongside the English translation, which has earned a reputation for its scholastic accuracy and readability
SacredHadith.com Ľ -What is Hadith Qudsi
'Believed' and "generally accepted" is all too human.

In PRINCIPLE:
As long as it is not in the Quran, it cannot be the words of Allah.
Whatever is not from the Quran is from humans not Allah.

One can refer to the Hadith Qudsi as a reference, but whatever is to be adopted as 'Islamic' must comply with the Quran's 6,236 verses.

".. because their meaning is entirely from Allah (swt) while the wording is that of the Prophet Muhammad (s) himself."
How do you can be sure, the meaning is entirely from Allah, when it is interpreted by a group of humans? Therefore it is impossible to have certainty for their meaning to be entirely from Allah.
In principle, the only words and meanings that are entirely from Allah are those from the Quran's 6,236 verses as accorded to Islam.

Note I mentioned it is only in Principle, that Islam as a Religion where the Quran's 6,236 verses are revealed verbatim by Allah. There are no other direct words of God beside the Quran.
But also note, in reality, it is impossible for God to exists, thus no God-revealed Quran.
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Old 10-17-2015, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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From S-L-M to Islam

The term Islam stems from the fourth form of the verb, which literally transliterated would be i-s-l-m, and it means "to surrender." The verbal noun of this verb form always inserts an "a" between the third and fourth letters, which results in the word "Islam," or "submission."
The proper noun Islam, the definite article, is preceded by the article "al," which is the Arabic version of "the." Therefore, the religion of Islam, in Arabic, is known as Al-Islam.
Etymology of Islam | People - Opposing Views

Note the following verses [mine]
5:3
....
This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
....

3:5 Indeed, the religion near Allah (is) Islam.
Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi al-islamu
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Old 10-18-2015, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From S-L-M to Islam

The term Islam stems from the fourth form of the verb, which literally transliterated would be i-s-l-m, and it means "to surrender." The verbal noun of this verb form always inserts an "a" between the third and fourth letters, which results in the word "Islam," or "submission."
The proper noun Islam, the definite article, is preceded by the article "al," which is the Arabic version of "the." Therefore, the religion of Islam, in Arabic, is known as Al-Islam.
Etymology of Islam | People - Opposing Views

Note the following verses [mine]
5:3
....
This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
....

3:5 Indeed, the religion near Allah (is) Islam.
Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi al-islamu
which is correct, except the Arabic concept of religion is not the same as the English concept.

Madhab is much closer to being a Religion, in the English definition of religion than Islam is.

Quote:
How the term Dīn came to be used in Islamic Arabia is uncertain, but its use in modern Persian may derive etymologically from the Zoroastrian concept of Daena, as it is called in the ancient Eastern Iranian Avestan language, which represents "insight" and "revelation", and from this "conscience" and "religion". Here, Daena is the Eternal Law, which was revealed to humanity through the Mathra-Spenta ("Holy Words"). Alternatively, the Hebrew term "דין", transliterated as "dīn", means either "law" or "judgement". In the Kabbalah of Judaism, the term can, alongside "Gevurah" (cognate to the Arabic "Jabaarah"), refer to "power", and to "judgement".[3] It may be the root of the common Semitic word Madīnah (city), and of Madyan, a geographical place and a people mentioned in the Bible and in the Qur'an. Thus, Dīn does not simply mean "religion" or "faith", but refers to "Governance".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%ABn
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