U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-20-2015, 09:57 PM
 
Location: South Park, San Diego
4,938 posts, read 7,595,175 times
Reputation: 9261

Advertisements

ISIS is Islam in its most pure and pious form. 'Nuff said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-20-2015, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORYL8jPtpQU
Ben Swann Tracks the Origin of ISIS
I agree with Ben Swann's views but being a specialist problem-solver I am more interested in the ultimate root cause.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxim...mate_causation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cause

A smoker may end up with lung cancer, generally smoking seems to be the direct cause but it is not the ultimate root cause.
The ultimate root cause of lung cancer are the malignant cancer cells within the human body.
There are many smokers who do not get lung cancer.
There are non-smokers who have never been near smokers who get lung cancer.
The ultimate root cause are the malignant cancer cells which became active when the immune system is weaken due to smoking, other activities and reasons.
If we get rid the cancer cells or control it from the start, no one will suffer from cancer regardless of the state of a person.

I believe the failed strategies of the US is one cause but it is not the ultimate root cause.
So what is the ultimate root cause? We have to investigate further.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2015, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree with Ben Swann's views but being a specialist problem-solver I am more interested in the ultimate root cause.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxim...mate_causation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cause

A smoker may end up with lung cancer, generally smoking seems to be the direct cause but it is not the ultimate root cause.
The ultimate root cause of lung cancer are the malignant cancer cells within the human body.
There are many smokers who do not get lung cancer.
There are non-smokers who have never been near smokers who get lung cancer.
The ultimate root cause are the malignant cancer cells which became active when the immune system is weaken due to smoking, other activities and reasons.
If we get rid the cancer cells or control it from the start, no one will suffer from cancer regardless of the state of a person.

I believe the failed strategies of the US is one cause but it is not the ultimate root cause.
So what is the ultimate root cause? We have to investigate further.
Not a good analogy as any living cell in our body can become cancerous. Our body cells are constantly dieing and dieing. many cells only living a few days or weeks. It takes an external factor to cause a normal healthy cell to divide into malignant cells. Some causes:

Radiation
chemicals
physical truma at a critical point of cell division.
broken strand of DNA during celldivieion.

The most common causes of lung cancer are:

Chemicals (Such as cigarette smoke)
fungi
Particulate matter (Silicon dust, Asbestos dust etc)

Most lung cancers can be prevented by avoiding tobacco smoke.

Speaking from experience as a lung cancer survivor who for nearly 60 years was a very heavy smoker. Finally quit at 65 years old but the damage had been done. Yes, I did start smoking at 5 years old when I began working in tobacco fields.

With all that said: My less wordy point is there is no single root cause as to why some people become terrorists or violent.

Currently the most violence is in the Mideast and is also the source of many terrorists.

While the region is predominantly Muslim, it is also the region that has had the most "Western interference" since 1900. The level of violence does not exist in predominetly Muslim nations outside the Mideast.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2015, 07:45 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,269 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.






Issue 2 HAQIQAH





Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2015, 02:25 PM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,121,948 times
Reputation: 2101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
About Alcohol, there are three verses all still valid.

1. In the drinking (wine) and in gambling there are advantages and losses for men. But the losses (disadvantages) are more than the advantages....

2. O, Believers, do not go near prayer when you are drunk......

3. Surely the wine and gambling are the dirty works of the devil. So keep away from them.... So that you may achieve comfort....

Please note that all the above verses are valid even today... Tell us which is abrogated.. Welcome,,,, more later.....

Islam for non-Muslims: Abrogation?
From what you posted it appears that alcohol is not prohibited but discouraged. Is that correct?

El Nox
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2015, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
From what you posted it appears that alcohol is not prohibited but discouraged. Is that correct?

El Nox
One has to understand the concept of sin in Islam.

It is actually levels of responsibility.

1. required to do, failure to do results in punishment

2. Not required to do, but a person is blessed for doing them.

3. Neutal not rewards ot punishments for doing or not doing

4. Discourged, a person is blessed for not doing, but not punished if they do it

5. Forbidden to do, a person will be punished if they do them.

Looking at those 3 ayyats it is difficult to determine if it comes under 4 or 5.

However the Qur'an is not a stand alone message, We have to also look at the teachings of Muhammad:

Quote:
he prohibition is even more firm according to a number of hadiths, such as:

Muslim, Book 22, Hadith 4962, Narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah

A person came from Jayshan, a town of Yemen, and he asked Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) about the wine which was drunk in their land and which was prepared from millet and was called Mizr.

Allah’s Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) asked whether that was intoxicating. He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: Every intoxicant is forbidden. Verily Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, made a covenant to those who drank intoxicants to make them drink Tinat al-Khabal, They said: Allah’s Messenger, what is Tinat al-Khabal? He said: It is the sweat of the denizens of Hell or the discharge of the denizens of Hell.

Abu Dawood, Book 26, Hadith 3672, Narrated by Abdullah Ibn Abbas

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Every intoxicant is khamr (wine) and every intoxicant is forbidden. If anyone drinks wine, Allah will not accept prayer from him for forty days, but if he repents, Allah will accept his repentance. If he repeats it a fourth time, it is binding on Allah that He will give him tinat al-khabal to drink.

He was asked: What is tinat al-khabal, Apostle of Allah? He replied: Discharge of wounds, flowing from the inhabitants of Hell. If anyone serves it to a minor who does not distinguish between the lawful and the unlawful, it is binding on Allah that He will give him to drink the discharge of wounds, flowing from the inhabitants of Hell.
Is Alcohol actually Prohibited in Islam? | Muslims and the World
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2015, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not a good analogy as any living cell in our body can become cancerous. Our body cells are constantly dieing and dieing. many cells only living a few days or weeks. It takes an external factor to cause a normal healthy cell to divide into malignant cells. Some causes:

Radiation
chemicals
physical truma at a critical point of cell division.
broken strand of DNA during celldivieion.

The most common causes of lung cancer are:

Chemicals (Such as cigarette smoke)
fungi
Particulate matter (Silicon dust, Asbestos dust etc)

Most lung cancers can be prevented by avoiding tobacco smoke.

Speaking from experience as a lung cancer survivor who for nearly 60 years was a very heavy smoker. Finally quit at 65 years old but the damage had been done. Yes, I did start smoking at 5 years old when I began working in tobacco fields.

With all that said: My less wordy point is there is no single root cause as to why some people become terrorists or violent.

Currently the most violence is in the Mideast and is also the source of many terrorists.

While the region is predominantly Muslim, it is also the region that has had the most "Western interference" since 1900. The level of violence does not exist in predominetly Muslim nations outside the Mideast.
It is obvious cancer cell are cells. Note this point;
Cancer cells are cells that grow and divide at an unregulated, quick pace. Although cancer cells can be quite common in a person they are only malignant when the other cells (particularly natural killer cells) fail to recognize and/or destroy them. wiki
So we have the following;
1. Human Cells - imperative for human existence
2. Cancer cells -common in a person - the ultimate root cause
3. Triggering circumstances that make them malignant
3. Malignant cancer cells

You missed out 2 above.
What you assert is human cells will be cancer cells and they straightaway turned malignant upon certain triggers.

My earlier point is the same as the fact cancer cells are common in a person.
Therefore it one can prevent cancer cells from existing right from the start there will not be any possibility of cancer regardless of the state of the person and the presence of the triggers.
If we can do this no smokers will ever suffer from cancer [may suffer other illnesses other than cancer but that is beside the point].

My analogy is very valid.
Ben Swann arguments in the OP are merely referring to 3, i.e. the triggering circumstances which are the proximate causes.
What we need to deal with are the ultimate root causes.

So what is the ultimate root cause?


Quote:
With all that said: My less wordy point is there is no single root cause as to
why some people become terrorists or violent.
You are insisting on the above because you are not a competent with problem-solving techniques [one of my forte].
Note this basic technique [besides the 100+1 others] to trace to the root and ultimate cause;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys
5 Whys is an iterative interrogative technique used to explore the cause-and-effect relationships underlying a particular problem. The primary goal of the technique is to determine the root cause of a defect or problem by repeating the question "Why?" Each question forms the basis of the next question. The "5" in the name derives from an empirical observation on the number of iterations typically required to resolve the problem.
If 5 Whys are not enough, then 7 or 10. Normally 5 is enough to get you to an effective ultimately root cause that one can work on to resolve the problem.
All evils must be addressed. On topic we are referring to religious related evils and violence and in particular to this section we are discussing Islamic-related evils and violence.
Apply the 5 Whys correctly and you will get to the 'ultimate' root causes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2015, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is obvious cancer cell are cells. Note this point;
Cancer cells are cells that grow and divide at an unregulated, quick pace. Although cancer cells can be quite common in a person they are only malignant when the other cells (particularly natural killer cells) fail to recognize and/or destroy them. wiki
So we have the following;
1. Human Cells - imperative for human existence
2. Cancer cells -common in a person - the ultimate root cause
3. Triggering circumstances that make them malignant
3. Malignant cancer cells

You missed out 2 above.
What you assert is human cells will be cancer cells and they straightaway turned malignant upon certain triggers.

My earlier point is the same as the fact cancer cells are common in a person.
Therefore it one can prevent cancer cells from existing right from the start there will not be any possibility of cancer regardless of the state of the person and the presence of the triggers.
If we can do this no smokers will ever suffer from cancer [may suffer other illnesses other than cancer but that is beside the point].

My analogy is very valid.
Ben Swann arguments in the OP are merely referring to 3, i.e. the triggering circumstances which are the proximate causes.
What we need to deal with are the ultimate root causes.

So what is the ultimate root cause?


You are insisting on the above because you are not a competent with problem-solving techniques [one of my forte].
Note this basic technique [besides the 100+1 others] to trace to the root and ultimate cause;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys
5 Whys is an iterative interrogative technique used to explore the cause-and-effect relationships underlying a particular problem. The primary goal of the technique is to determine the root cause of a defect or problem by repeating the question "Why?" Each question forms the basis of the next question. The "5" in the name derives from an empirical observation on the number of iterations typically required to resolve the problem.
If 5 Whys are not enough, then 7 or 10. Normally 5 is enough to get you to an effective ultimately root cause that one can work on to resolve the problem.
All evils must be addressed. On topic we are referring to religious related evils and violence and in particular to this section we are discussing Islamic-related evils and violence.
Apply the 5 Whys correctly and you will get to the 'ultimate' root causes.
I can appreciate your efforts and do recognize the effort you put forth. However, because of the individualistic nature of Islam each Muslim will have to be addressed seperatly. there is no "one shoe fits all" answer.

Perhaps one needs to also answer the followining questions.

1. Why are the vast majority of Islamic terrorists of Mideastern heritage?

2. Why are the majority followers of Wahhabi?

3. Why are some Madhabs of Islam virtually free of extremists?

4. Why are some of the non-Muslim, Quran based religions, free from terrorist? (Sufi, Bahai, Ahmaddyyat, etc)
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2015, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I can appreciate your efforts and do recognize the effort you put forth. However, because of the individualistic nature of Islam each Muslim will have to be addressed seperatly. there is no "one shoe fits all" answer.
I have posted in this post
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41657977-post15.html
the approach should be principle based and not individualistic as a primary factor.

The point is Allah's words, laws, doctrines, etc. are contained in the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] which is Absolute and cannot be changed to suit Muslims.
Muslims must adapt to comply with the [Quran-MGA] using the best effort and Allah will judged accordingly, i.e. one will reap what was sowed.

Allah will not alter the Quran-MGA except Allah will give allowance if Muslims cannot comply fully with it due to their varying conditions.

Quote:
Perhaps one needs to also answer the followining questions.

1. Why are the vast majority of Islamic terrorists of Mideastern heritage?

2. Why are the majority followers of Wahhabi?

3. Why are some Madhabs of Islam virtually free of extremists?

4. Why are some of the non-Muslim, Quran based religions, free from terrorist? (Sufi, Bahai, Ahmaddyyat, etc)
As discussed in another posts, there is hierarchy of causes. What you listed above are merely the secondary proximate causes and not the ultimate root causes.
Evils come all varieties in continuum from low [1] to high [100] and Islamic-related evils occur in many places where there are Muslims complying with the Quran-MGA. Whilst what is happening in the Middle-east is prominent there is a wide range of evils happening elsewhere in various regularity.

Note this recent incident in Indonesia [non-Middle_east];
Thousands of people, mostly Christians, have left Aceh Singkil regency, Aceh, for neighboring regencies in North Sumatra after an Islamic group attacked a village and set fire to a church. - Thousands leave Aceh after church burning | The Jakarta Post

Authorities in Indonesia's conservative Aceh province on Monday began tearing down several small Christian churches after hardline Muslims demanded their closure, citing a lack of building permits, and following religious violence.
Indonesia's Aceh demolishes churches after deadly unrest - Channel NewsAsia
Why do they need to burn down place of worship of other religions, in this case, Christianity.
The inspiration and motivation are from verses in the Quran-MGA right from the start i.e. 1:7 and all throughout the Quran.

Btw, the Muslims in Aceh follow the Sunni of Shafi'i mazhab in Fiqh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Aceh
This counter your point 3 above.


Quote:
4. Why are some of the non-Muslim, Quran based religions, free from terrorist?
(Sufi, Bahai, Ahmaddyyat, etc)
The Bahai make reference to the Quran but they do not enter into a covenant with their God based on the Quran-MGA. They have their own specific holy book.
The Sufi and Ahmadiyyas are considered heretics and not part of mainstream Islam as they committed shirk and unforgivable sin in accordance with the Quran with the Sufi saints and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a self proclaimed Messiah. The irony is when they make reference to Quran but add rivals and their own elements, they are more peaceful.
However I can predict the Ahmadiyyas who rely strongly on the Quran will have SOME evil prone believers who will commit other negatives [not terrorism] on non-Muslims if their numbers are large enough.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2015, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
To make it easy on me, Just addressing this one point at the moment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have posted in this post
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41657977-post15.html
the approach should be principle based and not individualistic as a primary factor.

The point is Allah's words, laws, doctrines, etc. are contained in the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] which is Absolute and cannot be changed to suit Muslims.
Muslims must adapt to comply with the [Quran-MGA] using the best effort and Allah will judged accordingly, i.e. one will reap what was sowed.

Allah will not alter the Quran-MGA except Allah will give allowance if Muslims cannot comply fully with it due to their varying conditions.
Quote:
the approach should be principle based and not individualistic as a primary factor.
That is your approach, not what you find done by Muslims.

Islam is very individual and based on a personal commitment not though standardized religious teachings.

To practice Islam requires a direct link with no intermediaries a model being--Muslim<-Allah

While the Qur'an, Muhammad and Gabriel are tools we can and should use to achieve Muslim<-Allah

We can not use your model as Islam does not require perfection and the complition of specific acts as the criteria that will be judged are Intent, ability and knowledge. There is no check-list of accomplishments that must be completed to perform Islam.


a baby with no knowledge of Islam is one of the purist Muslims possible.

Past Prophets (Pbut), and their followers, with no knowledge of the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws) were true Muslims


what invalidates your premise is there are and have been a person can perform Islam with no knowledge of the Qur. Muhammad, or Gabriel. Only a knowledge of the existence of Allah.

Which makes the Basic and only all inclusive model as being Muslim<-Allah
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top