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Old 10-17-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Islam = Quran <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

I believe the definition of 'Islam' can only be defined as based on the above central formulation and nothing else.

If 'islam' is defined as a verb, i.e. islam-v [note small "i"], this definition is from the Quran within the above formulation.
Islam as a verb, i.e. islam-v cannot stand by itself without its source of the whole of the formulation, i.e.
Quran <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah.

The interpretation is as follows;

Proposition: 'islam' is defined as a verb, i.e. islam-v [note small "i"],
1. Who said so?
..Answer: The Quran
2. Where is the Quran from?
..Answer: Muhammad
3. What divine authority did Muhammad has
..Answer: Spoken to by angel Gabriel
4. What divine authority did Gabriel has?
..Answer: Gabriel is directly commanded by Allah.

Note the direct link from the proposition to Allah deductively.

The above process of justification can be done for
Islam [noun] is a Deen or Religion.
1. Who said so?
..Answer: The Quran
2. Where is the Quran from?
..Answer: Muhammad
3. What divine authority did Muhammad has
..Answer: Spoken to by angel Gabriel
4. What divine authority did Gabriel has?
..Answer: Gabriel is directly commanded by Allah.

Thus whatever is Islam or anything associated with Islam must be justified by the above process.

The Hadiths cannot be an imperative part of Islam. The Hadiths can only be explanatory notes and whatever is Islamic out of it must comply with the Quran and justified by the above process.
Here is how we do the verification process;

The penalty for adultery is by stoning to death!
Who said so?
..Answer: The Hadiths
Where is the Hadith from?
..Answer: Bukhari (6:60:79)
What divine authority did Bukhari has
..Answer: None,
Then from where is his source?
..Answer: From hearsays of various people hearing Muhammad sayings then refined and self-verification
Who are these various people who heard from Muhammad
..Answer: ???

As one can see once we start with the Hadiths, there is a possibility that it will not get in line with the justification process [1-4] as above to justify it is genuinely from Allah.

The only possibility for the Hadiths to be genuinely from Allah is to link whatever is in the Hadiths to the Quran and from there justified to be from Allah via process 1-4 above. Example;

Muslims shall cast terror on Non-Muslims
Who said so?
..Answer: The Hadiths
Where is the Hadith from?
..Answer: Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220
What divine authority did Bukhari has
..Answer: None,
Then from where is his source?
Answer: The Quran 8:12
2. Where is the Quran from?
..Answer: Muhammad
3. What divine authority did Muhammad has
..Answer: Spoken to by angel Gabriel
4. What divine authority did Gabriel has?
..Answer: Gabriel is directly commanded by Allah.

The above 'cast terror' is from the Hadiths, but in this case it is linked to the Quran and thence to Allah. In this case it is Islamic are per Islam = Quran <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah.

My point:
The definition of 'Islam' can only be defined as based on the above central formulation i.e.
Islam = Quran <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah and nothing else.

Last edited by Continuum; 10-17-2015 at 10:25 PM..
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Another common claim is "Islam" pre-existed before Muhammad.

To test via the justification process, note the following;

Proposition [P1]: "Islam" pre-existed before Muhammad.
1. Who said so?
..Answer: The Quran
2. Where is the Quran from?
..Answer: Muhammad
3. What divine authority did Muhammad has
..Answer: Spoken to by angel Gabriel
4. What divine authority did Gabriel has?
..Answer: Gabriel is directly commanded by Allah.

The above proposition [P1], "Islam" pre-existed before Muhammad
can only be true if linked to the above justification process 1-4 and the related elements.

The above proposition cannot be true by itself.

For example, those who do not agree with the Quran [Jews, Christians, and others] will not except the above proposition as true.
Similarly atheists will not accept P1 is as true because to them God do not exist.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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The word Islam predates written Arabic and can be found in languages related to Arabic such as Phonetician, Hebrew, Aramaic. The noun derived from Islam is Muslim meaning a person who perms Islam can be found in the Bible in Luke 6:40

LINK



The question should probably be.

What do Muslims believe Islam is?

The Academic answer will be found in Arabic language dictionaries. The problem arises when people use the English definition. Islam is not an English word and is defined in Arabic. To keep with the Arabic concept only the use of it as a verb meaning to "Submit to God(swt)" anything else added detracts from the Arabic meaning.

In the vernacular it is often used instead of "Ummah" which means all people that perform the act of Islam.

World wide there are very many differing groups each believing they are performing Islam. Each with differing beliefs and practices, but all considered to be of the "Ummah" as they claim to perform Islam.

Quote:
Like with other religions, over time different movements have developed in Islam. These movements are based on different interpretations of the scriptures. The following sections list the most common movements.

Non-denominational Muslims are Muslims who don't follow any branch and simply call themselves Muslim. They are also called Ghayr Muqallids.
The Muwahidin or Muwahid Muslims are a Muslim restoration movement that accepts mainstream Islam, but prefer to orient themselves towards a primacy of God's commands on issues pertaining to sharia law. Muwahidists believe that modern Islam has been mixed with many cultural traditions and they want to change that.
The Shi'ites believe that just as only God can appoint a prophet, he can appoint a second leader after the prophet. Shi'a Muslims believe that God chose Ali as the leader after Prophet Muhammad. About 10-20% of Muslims are Shi'a which means that there are about 120 million world wide. Shi'a Muslims form the majority of Muslims in Iran, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Iraq, and Lebanon. The largest adhab in Yemen is Zaydi Shia. Shias commonly gather for Day of Ashura in Karbala. They accept four hadiths.
Sunnism considers Abu Bakr to be the successor of Muhammad. Sunnis make up roughly 75% of Muslims.[5][18] Sunnis believe that leaders of Islam should be chosen by the people of the Muslim world. After Abu Bakr died, Omar took his place, then Uthman, and then Ali. All of them were companions of the Prophet Muhammad and lived in Medina. Sunni beliefs are typically based on the Qur'an and the Kutub al-Sittah (six hadiths). Sunnis are sometimes called Bukharists.

Sufi whirling dervishes in Turkey

The Sufi are a branch in Islam that focuses more on the spiritual and mystic elements of Islam. Sufis usually conclude their prayers with dhikr recitations.
The Quraniyoon generally reject the authority of the hadiths. Such Muslims, also known as Quranists and Ahle Quran, believe that the Quran is the sole source of guidance. They say the hadiths are not endorsed by the Quran, and some call them an innovative bid'ah.
Ibadis are Muslims who originated from the Kharijites. Ibadis today have reformed beliefs from original Kharijites.
Ahmadiyyas are Muslims who follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed who they consider to be the mahdi. They are divided into two subgroups; the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.[19]
The Nation of Islam is a denomination in Islam primarily geared towards African Americans.
The Five-Percent Nation, a denomination predominantly consisting of African-American, also known as Nation of Gods and Earths.
There is no single definition that will apply to all members of the "Ummah" as the only commonality is each Muslim strives to perform Islam.
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The word Islam predates written Arabic and can be found in languages related to Arabic such as Phonetician, Hebrew, Aramaic. The noun derived from Islam is Muslim meaning a person who perms Islam can be found in the Bible in Luke 6:40

LINK


The question should probably be.

What do Muslims believe Islam is?

The Academic answer will be found in Arabic language dictionaries. The problem arises when people use the English definition. Islam is not an English word and is defined in Arabic. To keep with the Arabic concept only the use of it as a verb meaning to "Submit to God(swt)" anything else added detracts from the Arabic meaning.

In the vernacular it is often used instead of "Ummah" which means all people that perform the act of Islam.

World wide there are very many differing groups each believing they are performing Islam. Each with differing beliefs and practices, but all considered to be of the "Ummah" as they claim to perform Islam.


There is no single definition that will apply to all members of the "Ummah" as the only commonality is each Muslim strives to perform Islam.
My point here is focused on the context in relation to how a word is to be used.

In this case, re the OP,
the word 'Islam' is used in the context of
1. Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

This is different from the word 'Islam' used in the context of
2. Bible NT [Aramaic]<- Christ<- God

1 and 2 cannot be the same as their context are different.

My point is, whenever we mention the term 'Islam' it is by default and must be described in the context of Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

The appropriate question is;
What do we [Muslims and everyone else] understand what 'Islam' is?

The precise answer is;
Islam as a noun or verb is imperatively deemed to be in the context of
Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

Therefore the mentioned of 'Islam' is automatically defaulted to be associated with
Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

It Islam is to be described in other contexts, then it must be clearly explained.

I have explained how 'Islam' is to be properly understand without confusion here;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41608029-post11.html


It is toe shallow to associate 'Islam' as 'submit to God.' That is merely islam as a verb with small 'i'. Besides there are other monotheistic religions that 'submit to God'.
Therefore to identify what Islam is, the most precise way is to associate and qualify 'Islam' in the context of
Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point here is focused on the context in relation to how a word is to be used.

In this case, re the OP,
the word 'Islam' is used in the context of
1. Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

This is different from the word 'Islam' used in the context of
2. Bible NT [Aramaic]<- Christ<- God

1 and 2 cannot be the same as their context are different.

My point is, whenever we mention the term 'Islam' it is by default and must be described in the context of Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

The appropriate question is;
What do we [Muslims and everyone else] understand what 'Islam' is?

The precise answer is;
Islam as a noun or verb is imperatively deemed to be in the context of
Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

Therefore the mentioned of 'Islam' is automatically defaulted to be associated with
Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

It Islam is to be described in other contexts, then it must be clearly explained.

I have explained how 'Islam' is to be properly understand without confusion here;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41608029-post11.html


It is toe shallow to associate 'Islam' as 'submit to God.' That is merely islam as a verb with small 'i'. Besides there are other monotheistic religions that 'submit to God'.
Therefore to identify what Islam is, the most precise way is to associate and qualify 'Islam' in the context of
Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah
writing in the context of the arabic language, which has no
capital letters.

the only proper definition of islam is submission to god(swt)

there are many ways to do so. that would be the madhabs. there being many madhabs based upon the quran and the teachings of muhammad(saws) there are many more that do not such as the many facets of judaism, christianity, sabeeanism, sikhism and others

to relate in terms of a religion one must use the name of the individual madhab such as:

hanafi, hanbali, deo band , and even the madhabs of christianity (ie: catholicism, baptist, chuch of christ, chuch of god, methodist) judaism (ie: othodox, reformed, chadissic etc) and all others.

for those of us that proffess to be sunni in todays world the only proper way to perform islam is by the methodologies in any of the 4 true madhabs (maliki, hanafi, hanbali or shafi'i)

your proposition is going to have to be adjusted in accordance with each of the 100,000 + religious denominations currently in use for example: just among a few of the qur'an/muhammad/ forms of islam

SUNNI<-SUNNAH<-HANNAFI<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

NOI<-WALLACE<-MUHAMMAD ELIJAH<-FARAKHAN<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

AHMADYYAH<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

SHI'A<-TWELVER<AYATOULLAH<-Quran [FARSI] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah
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Old 10-19-2015, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
writing in the context of the arabic language, which has no
capital letters.

the only proper definition of islam is submission to god(swt)
Note earlier you agreed Islam is a noun, i.e.

Note the following verses [mine]
5:3 ....
This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
....

3:5 Indeed, the religion near Allah (is) Islam.
Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi al-islamu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
which is correct, except the Arabic concept of religion is not the same as
the English concept
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41607403-post10.html
Islam as a verb is part of Islam [noun aka Deen] and should be labeled as islam-v.
Since we are not using Arabic, surely you can label it islam-v for precision purposes.

Quote:
there are many ways to do so. that would be the madhabs. there being many madhabs based upon the quran and the teachings of muhammad(saws) there are many more that do not such as the many facets of judaism, christianity, sabeeanism, sikhism and others

to relate in terms of a religion one must use the name of the individual madhab such as:

hanafi, hanbali, deo band , and even the madhabs of christianity (ie: catholicism, baptist, chuch of christ, chuch of god, methodist) judaism (ie: othodox, reformed, chadissic etc) and all others.

for those of us that proffess to be sunni in todays world the only proper way to perform islam is by the methodologies in any of the 4 true madhabs (maliki, hanafi, hanbali or shafi'i)

your proposition is going to have to be adjusted in accordance with each of the 100,000 + religious denominations currently in use for example: just among a few of the qur'an/muhammad/ forms of islam

SUNNI<-SUNNAH<-HANNAFI<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

NOI<-WALLACE<-MUHAMMAD ELIJAH<-FARAKHAN<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

AHMADYYAH<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

SHI'A<-TWELVER<AYATOULLAH<-Quran [FARSI] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah
I wrote somewhere is it totally wrong to classify the Madhabs as religions.
They are sects or schools of the religion of Islam [noun].
The religion of Islam as a noun is also known as the Deen.
This is what is claimed by the Quran and I explained here
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41608029-post11.html
the Deen as represented in the Quran is a corrupted version of the Eternal Law [Din, Daena].

Re your
SUNNI<-SUNNAH<-HANNAFI<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah
I don't see any meaning in the above formulation at all.

My original presentation was;
Pure Islam [noun] = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

If you want to take into account the Hadiths or Sunnah, it should be presented as
Pure Islam + Sunnah + Madhab = Sunni Islam or
Sunnah + Madhab + [Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] = Sunni Islam

From the above you will note Sunni Islam is not Pure Islam because it is adulterated with the Sunnah and some hadiths may not comply with the Quran.
For example, when the hadiths provide for stoning to death in the case of adultery, and since this is not in the Quran, it cannot be pure Islam as represented by the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
I have not researched the Hadiths fully, but it is possible that a large percentage of hadiths are not in line with the Quran.

In the case of the Shia it will be;
Pure Islam + Shia Hadiths + Shia elements = Shia Islam or

[Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] + Shia Hadiths + Shia elements = Shia Islam

The Quran is still the original Arabic, it is only that they use the translated Farsi version.

As for the other religions that has any semblance of islam-v as submission of God, they are not Islam proper as a Noun because they lack the Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] elements.

I suggest you reread this thread again to understand [not necessary agree] the actual idea I am trying to convey.

Last edited by Continuum; 10-19-2015 at 04:51 AM..
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note earlier you agreed Islam is a noun, i.e.

Note the following verses [mine]
5:3 ....
This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
....

3:5 Indeed, the religion near Allah (is) Islam.
Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi al-islamu


Islam as a verb is part of Islam [noun aka Deen] and should be labeled as islam-v.
Since we are not using Arabic, surely you can label it islam-v for precision purposes.

I wrote somewhere is it totally wrong to classify the Madhabs as religions.
They are sects or schools of the religion of Islam [noun].
The religion of Islam as a noun is also known as the Deen.
This is what is claimed by the Quran and I explained here
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41608029-post11.html
the Deen as represented in the Quran is a corrupted version of the Eternal Law [Din, Daena].

Re your
SUNNI<-SUNNAH<-HANNAFI<-Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah
I don't see any meaning in the above formulation at all.

My original presentation was;
Pure Islam [noun] = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah

If you want to take into account the Hadiths or Sunnah, it should be presented as
Pure Islam + Sunnah + Madhab = Sunni Islam or
Sunnah + Madhab + [Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] = Sunni Islam

From the above you will note Sunni Islam is not Pure Islam because it is adulterated with the Sunnah and some hadiths may not comply with the Quran.
For example, when the hadiths provide for stoning to death in the case of adultery, and since this is not in the Quran, it cannot be pure Islam as represented by the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
I have not researched the Hadiths fully, but it is possible that a large percentage of hadiths are not in line with the Quran.

In the case of the Shia it will be;
Pure Islam + Shia Hadiths + Shia elements = Shia Islam or

[Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] + Shia Hadiths + Shia elements = Shia Islam

The Quran is still the original Arabic, it is only that they use the translated Farsi version.

As for the other religions that has any semblance of islam-v as submission of God, they are not Islam proper as a Noun because they lack the Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] elements.

I suggest you reread this thread again to understand [not necessary agree] the actual idea I am trying to convey.
I do understand you are presenting an idea and a very interesting one I will admit. But it is your idea and does have validity as your sincere opinion. However it does not reflect the concepts of Islam as presented in the madhabs.

ISIS and others follow Wahhabi as a Madhab. It should be noted that virtually every terrorist act has been done by a follower of the Wahhabi Madhab.

I am quite certain that the typical wahhabi will agree with your model of Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]

But keep in mind the followers of Wahhab are a very small percentage of the world's Muslims. to understand ISIS one needs to understand the teachings of
Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab:

Your model seems to be a very good description of Wahhabi'ism

Here are a few links that clarify the teachings of
Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab. I believe you will find them to be very much in agreement with your definition of Islam

Saudi Arabia - Wahhabi Theology

Islamic Radicalism: Its Wahhabi Roots and Current Representation

Sacred Texts: Wahhabi Manuscript

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia*|*Alastair Crooke

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Old 10-19-2015, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do understand you are presenting an idea and a very interesting one I will admit. But it is your idea and does have validity as your sincere opinion. However it does not reflect the concepts of Islam as presented in the madhabs.

ISIS and others follow Wahhabi as a Madhab. It should be noted that virtually every terrorist act has been done by a follower of the Wahhabi Madhab.

I am quite certain that the typical wahhabi will agree with your model of Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]

But keep in mind the followers of Wahhab are a very small percentage of the world's Muslims. to understand ISIS one needs to understand the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab:

Your model seems to be a very good description of Wahhabi'ism

Here are a few links that clarify the teachings of

Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab. I believe you will find them to be very much in agreement with your definition of Islam

Saudi Arabia - Wahhabi Theology

Islamic Radicalism: Its Wahhabi Roots and Current Representation

Sacred Texts: Wahhabi Manuscript

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia*|*Alastair Crooke


Note my model
Pure Islam = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]

is the definition of Islam in principle and not representing Wahhabism.

My formulation of Wahhabi is as follows;
Pure Islam = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]
Pure Islam + Sunni + Wahhabi Theology = Wahhabi Islam

Thus my definition of Wahhabi is not solely Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah] but it must be predicated with Sunni + Wahhabi Theology elements to be called Wahhabi.

You cannot conflate the following;
610 AD - Pure Islam i.e. Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]
1750~ - Wahabi Islam

How true a Wahabi Muslim will depend on how much the comply with the Quran of Pure Islam and how much it deviate from it.

Note and I am sure you will [you have to] agree with this;
Pure Islam = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]
This is very specific because this was The Quran, i.e. God's words recited to Muhammad via Gabriel directly from Allah, over 23 years starting from 610 AD.
There in the Quran, Allah stated
5:3
....
This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
....

3:5 Indeed, the religion near Allah (is) Islam.
Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi al-islamu
So from the above I just can not see how you could dispute
Pure Islam = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah]
Agree?

There are only 6,236 verses in the Quran of Pure Islam, so it is not difficult to assess how much a Muslim has complied with it objectively.

The Islam as presented via the Madhabs is not pure Islam.
I see the Madhabs as explanatory notes and guidelines for the lay-Muslim and do not carry any divine authority and thus should not be represented as Islam-proper or pure Islam.
Where the elements in the Madhabs comply with the dictate of the Quran, then there is no issue and one can be confident it would pass God's judgment on J-Day.

Where the elements in the Madhabs do not comply with the dictate of the Quran but if anyone were to insists they are the intentions of Allah, then these could be 'shirk' i.e. interpretations that is from a human in rival to God's words.

The problem is when a Muslim subscribe to a specific Madhabs, e.g. Hanafi, s/he has to comply with the whole teachings of that particular school and its teachings [since created by man] which contains elements that are not in strict compliance to the Quran of Pure Islam, i.e. Pure Islam = Quran [Arabic] <-Muhammad <-Gabriel <-Allah].

Thus to avoid the above sin of adopting non-Quran compliant elements one will have to adopt only those elements that are compliant.

So, my model is not solely for Wahhabism, rather note my explanations above.
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