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Old 10-20-2015, 07:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
There's one unforgivable sin which is to give partner(s) to God (polytheism).
The others sins are still sins, but Allah may forgive people.
Muslims don't believe that just their belief and relugious duties will make them enter Paradise, they HOPE to be forgiven and that Allah with his Mercy will make them enter Paradise.

Just remember that it's only the opinion and understanding of Continuum who is not a muslim and that it's not the interpretation/understanding of all the muslims or the schoolars.
Of course, my own understanding of the Quran don't always represent all the muslims, like anyone in any religion don't always believe the exact same thing.

So, concerning the Moses's explanation given by Continuum i totally disagree.
I think he even may have mistaken between 2 stories of the Quran.

First, a murder is a big sin in Islam, the second big sin just after Shirk (to give partners to God).
The exemple of the 2 sons of Adam were given in the Quran. The one who killed his brother will go to Hell even if he was a muslim (muslim in the sense "who believed in God")
We can see that the punishement of the one who kill an innocent person is Hell :

5.28 Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee, lo! I fear Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

5.29
Lo! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the fire. That is the reward of evil-doers.


Muslims believe that Adam is the first prophet, and that people became polytheists some times before Noah or some say after Enoch. So the children of Adam are muslims.
The one who killed his brother commited murder and there's nothing in the Quran about him asking for forgiveness, just having some regrets.
I disagree about the simplist understanding of sins and forgiveness that Continuum have, ignoring many verses.

Moses didn't kill intentionnally someone, and he asked Allah to forgive him :

28.15 And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.

28.16
He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

28.17
He said: My Lord! Forasmuch as Thou hast favoured me, I will nevermore be a supporter of the guilty.

Allah forgave him because he immediatly reconnized his error. He just wanted to help someone and hit to hard the other man.

I think that Continuum confused with another story, but it's not Moses who killed someone it's another one and Moses was even horrified.

This is a story about a man (probably a prophet but we don't really know) who was given wisdom and kind of power from God.
Moses wanted to learn from him (there's some hadith about this story) so he searched him :

18. 65
Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.

18.66 Moses said unto him: May I follow thee, to the end that thou mayst teach me right conduct of that which thou hast been taught?

18.67 He said: Lo! thou canst not bear with me.

18.68
How canst thou bear with that whereof thou canst not compass any knowledge?

Since the beginning this man favored by God (who has even more knowledge than Moses) explained to Moses that it will be difficult to him.


18.74 So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said: What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing.

18.75
He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me?

We can see that Moses can't understand why the man did some things like killing a innocent but if you keep reading, that man (Al Khidr) explains it and said :

18. 82 (...)[ and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear.

I suggest you to read this article about the Khidr : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr

Saying that Moses killed someone and it was justified by Allah is a big mistake for someone who said have read many times the Quran.
Even Moses couldn't understand El Khidr, but El Khidr was given directs commandements by God (probably by the Angel Gabriel).

Taking an exemple as this one saying it's ok that Isis do the same is completely false.
We have already seen that murder is wrong, and that El Khidr did things not on his own.
The attitude of Moses is normal (to be horrified by the murder) and muslims are not better than prophets. If he couldn't bear this how can we ?

I sincerely appreciate the time and effort you took in this post. While I was in Saudi, I read a translation of the (at the time) Koran. As I saw the flagrant hypocrisy between what I saw and what I read ... I left with a strong distaste for Islam, which claims to be a religion of peace. I must admit that reading the post on ISIS reignited that distaste. I have absolutely NO DESIRE to turn what I consider an education into a political spitting contest which is exactly why I mentioned earlier about creating a different topic. That way, if things started getting political, the topic could either be locked or deleted. Your response kept the education on track. Thank you.

I will now begin a new topic because it is far different that this discussion.

El Nox
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Taking an exemple as this one saying it's ok that Isis do the same is completely false.
We have already seen that murder is wrong, and that El Khidr did things not on his own.
The attitude of Moses is normal (to be horrified by the murder) and muslims are not better than prophets. If he couldn't bear this how can we ?
Btw, my point re Moses' case was to point out the killing of an enemy or one who threatened
can be forgiven by Allah if justified.
The followers of ISIS interpret their killing of their enemies in accordance to their interpretation of the verses of the Quran are most likely to be acceptable to God. Of course they [like any Muslim] cannot be 100% sure till J-Day, but they are obvious confident they are right as they are relying on examples from the Quran.
Moses' example was merely a side example [not that critical] but they would be relying on other more relevant verses in the Quran.
Since there is no central authority, who are you to say they are wrong?
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:56 AM
 
144 posts, read 108,510 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, my point re Moses' case was to point out the killing of an enemy or one who threatened
can be forgiven by Allah if justified.
The followers of ISIS interpret their killing of their enemies in accordance to their interpretation of the verses of the Quran are most likely to be acceptable to God. Of course they [like any Muslim] cannot be 100% sure till J-Day, but they are obvious confident they are right as they are relying on examples from the Quran.
Moses' example was merely a side example [not that critical] but they would be relying on other more relevant verses in the Quran.
Since there is no central authority, who are you to say they are wrong?
Of course they are confidant and think they are right. If they want to interpret things to fit their belief they do.
We can see that suicide which is strictly forbidden is acceptable for them for exemple.

The exemple of Moses was very bad because he killed a man unwillingly. It was an accident.
The guy he killed was not even an israelite (so not a believer as he was an egyptian) like him but he still regreted to have kill him.
So your exemple on the contrary prooves that we can't kill someone even he's not from our religion.

You always say "use the quran" to proove your point. But in reality you use a simplist logic which is not reliable to the Quran.
I always give you the verses prooving my point but you just ignore them. This will not make them disapear you know.

Who are you to twist the Quran's verses and say that i'm wrong after that ?

I remember you again something about Isis : they kill a lot of muslims.
I gave the exemples about killing an innocent person is a sin and even the verses about Moses proove that again.
So if you want to live in lies and want to spread lies to people about Islam, what can i say ...
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Of course they are confidant and think they are right. If they want to interpret things to fit their belief they do.
We can see that suicide which is strictly forbidden is acceptable for them for exemple.

The exemple of Moses was very bad because he killed a man unwillingly. It was an accident.
The guy he killed was not even an israelite (so not a believer as he was an egyptian) like him but he still regreted to have kill him.
So your exemple on the contrary prooves that we can't kill someone even he's not from our religion.

You always say "use the quran" to proove your point. But in reality you use a simplist logic which is not reliable to the Quran.
I always give you the verses prooving my point but you just ignore them. This will not make them disapear you know.

Who are you to twist the Quran's verses and say that i'm wrong after that ?

I remember you again something about Isis : they kill a lot of muslims.
I gave the exemples about killing an innocent person is a sin and even the verses about Moses proove that again.
So if you want to live in lies and want to spread lies to people about Islam, what can i say ...
You missed my point and I did not want to waste time as you have strayed. But since you are insistence on it.

Note I started with this;
Despite the horrors, my rough assessment is the followers of ISIS will score higher than the average Muslims in accordance to the standards of the Quran.
They may deviate from the Quran in some instances but I believe they will be forgiven as long as they do not commit the greatest sin, i.e. ascribing partners, rivals, gods, deities to Allah.
ISIS murder?
Note Allah judged Moses' murder of someone to be justified and forgivable in the Quranic sense and the followers of ISIS can use this case as a precedence.
In the above I was merely giving an example of how Allah is likely [as no one know for sure] to judge. So ISIS is likely [I am not sure they do] to use the Moses example as a "precedence" as a guide for their action. Note I am not saying God is using this a precedence as Allah do not need any precedence as the supreme all powerful judge. Thus my point as follows;
This is an example of how Muslims are judging their actions now using that [and others] as a precedence and hoping it will be judged similarly and positively on J-Day.
I mentioned the Moses point merely as an example but note I mentioned therein 'and others', i.e. other verses that are more relevant and with higher confidence to support their acts, e.g. the so called 'sword verses' and many others.
I said, they are hoping [as they cannot be sure] the Moses verse will support their cause but if it does not work due to the specific circumstance, then they can rely and hope the 'other' verses which are more relevant to their acts will earned the deserved merit.

Re the Moses point I was referring to 28:15.
1. That killing by Moses was done with intention [not as you claimed to be unintentionally]
2. Moses willingly and intentionally acted upon a request by the person of his caste to kill the enemy.
3. The Quran in various verses permit the killing of the enemy if a Muslim is wronged or there is a need to defend the religion.
4. So in principle, there is nothing wrong for Moses to kill an enemy if the reasons are justified.
5. There are no details as to why Moses admit it as a sin and we do not know.
6. However as long as point 2, 3, and 4 is valid then there is a merit to it.


Your point re 5:28 is not effective at all.
Juju has pointed this out in another post.
Note the resulting verse 5:32
5:32. For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel [Jews] that whosoever killeth a human being (for other than manslaughter [murder] or corruption in the [World] earth), it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, ........
The above [exception] permit Muslims to kill if they are infidels or Muslims committing corruption or mischief which is anything that is against and a threat to Islam. ISIS would have relied on this verse [and others] to kill non-Muslims and Muslims because they accused them of committing corruption and mischief in the World.


Note I am NOT a Muslim and I do not support ISIS.
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Old 10-22-2015, 04:11 AM
 
144 posts, read 108,510 times
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I insist because you are illogic and you ignore many verses. And i don't like to see false things about Islam.
I have no problem that you don't like Islam, that you criticize it, but you have to be honnest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
They may deviate from the Quran in some instances but I believe they will be forgiven as long as they do not commit the greatest sin, i.e. ascribing partners, rivals, gods, deities to Allah.
No muslim can be sure of that especially if he commited BIG sins WITHOUT ASKING FORGIVENESS.
Why do you put aside many verses and act like they don't exist ?
It was not asking you to make conlusion on your own, you have to analyze all the verses before giving your opinion. Because if each muslim ignore verses like you do (or extremists for ex) and believe according to his passions/desirs, then he will lead himself astray to Islam.


66.8 O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him.

4.17
Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil in ignorance (and) then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. These are they toward whom Allah relenteth. Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

4.18
The forgiveness is not for those who do ill-deeds until, when death attendeth upon one of them, he saith: Lo! I repent now; nor yet for those who die while they are disbelievers. For such We have prepared a painful doom.

6.54
And when those who believe in Our revelations come unto thee, say: Peace be unto you! Your Lord hath prescribed for Himself mercy, that whoso of you doeth evil through ignorance and repenteth afterward thereof and doeth right, (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


So don't come saying : they will be forgiven because they didn't commited shirk .
And don't say they will be forgiven because they didn't repent.
It is NOT you who do the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the above I was merely giving an example of how Allah is likely [as no one know for sure] to judge. So ISIS is likely [I am not sure they do] to use the Moses example as a "precedence" as a guide for their action.
Then i don't understand what it has to do with Isis.

Moses didn't kill someone on purpose. Isis does kill intentionnally people (civilians)
Moses immediatly repented. Isis doesn't repent, they continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re the Moses point I was referring to 28:15.
1. That killing by Moses was done with intention [not as you claimed to be unintentionally]
Have we read the sames verses ?

28.15 (...) So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.

28.16 He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

Why did he said that it was because of the devil soon after he killed the man and why did he asked forgiveness then if it was his intention to kill him ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. Moses willingly and intentionally acted upon a request by the person of his caste to kill the enemy.
Where this person asked Moses to kill the man ? He asked for help only.

28.15 And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies.

Don't come with therories, saying that he wanted this or that if in the Quran there's nothing about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
3. The Quran in various verses permit the killing of the enemy if a Muslim is wronged or there is a need to defend the religion.
4. So in principle, there is nothing wrong for Moses to kill an enemy if the reasons are justified.
Why he asked forgiveness then and why Allah ACCEPTED to forgive him then ?
If it's not a sin there's nothing to forgive, right ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5. There are no details as to why Moses admit it as a sin and we do not know.
Because he is not a crazy man and he knows that killing someone is bad .. just saying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your point re 5:28 is not effective at all.
Juju has pointed this out in another post.
Note the resulting verse 5:32
5:32. For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel [Jews] that whosoever killeth a human being (for other than manslaughter [murder] or corruption in the [World] earth), it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, ........
Like i said to Juju this verse applies to us. Because we are all sons of Adam.
Secondly we have to agree on what is a corruption on earth.
The guy Moses hits wasn't making "corruption" on the earth, if so Moses wouldn't have asked for forgiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above [exception] permit Muslims to kill if they are infidels or Muslims committing corruption or mischief which is anything that is against and a threat to Islam. ISIS would have relied on this verse [and others] to kill non-Muslims and Muslims because they accused them of committing corruption and mischief in the World.

Note I am NOT a Muslim and I do not support ISIS.
I remember you that even if there was minorities in Irak and Syria the countries were identified as "muslim countries". The only exeption among the arab countries was Lebanon which is 50/50 muslim/christian.

Islam was not threatened at all. I don't know for what reason a muslim should also be killed, especially if there's verses like :

4.93 Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.


But i guess you will come and say like always "they wanted to do things for Islam in good faith, they didn't commited shirk the only unforgivable sin blabla so they will be forgiven"

You don't support ISIS that is something i don't doubt about it. But you try to find anything in the Quran in their favor. Ignoring verses, understanding in a non logical manner, whatever give them credits.
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Old 10-22-2015, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
I insist because you are illogic and you ignore many verses. And i don't like to see false things about Islam.
I have no problem that you don't like Islam, that you criticize it, but you have to be honest.
Quote:
They may deviate from the Quran in some instances but I believe they will be forgiven as long as they do not commit the greatest sin, i.e. ascribing partners, rivals, gods, deities to
Allah.
No muslim can be sure of that especially if he commited BIG sins WITHOUT ASKING FORGIVENESS.
Why do you put aside many verses and act like they don't exist ?
It was not asking you to make conlusion on your own, you have to analyze all the verses before giving your opinion. Because if each muslim ignore verses like you do (or extremists for ex) and believe according to his passions/desirs, then he will lead himself astray to Islam.

So don't come saying : they will be forgiven because they didn't commited shirk .
And don't say they will be forgiven because they didn't repent.
It is NOT you who do the rules.
As I have said, I interpret the Quran objectively and I don't see where I have been dishonest about it. So far you have not produced any evidence of it except your misunderstanding of what I wrote [may be it was not clear and I was hasty but can be clarified with further explanation].

Let me rephrase my original intention [added];
They may [have] deviate[d] from the Quran in some instances but I believe they will be forgiven [if they seek it] as long as they do not commit the greatest sin [ascribing partners, rivals, gods, deities to Allah.]

It was not my intention to say they can deviate on their own free will. This is definitely a no no if they deliberately deviate from Allah's words.

The other point is, they may have acted on the sincere belief that they are acting in accordance to Allah words but in turn out on J-Day it was a deviation out of ignorance. If they are asked they will definitely repent and asked forgiveness.

Another point is, except for unforgivable sin [ascribing partners, deities and idols] there are verses where Allah will offset them against the good deeds of the Muslims. I don't have the verse off hand but can reproduced when I find it. If I can recall this offset is done automatically without asking for forgiveness.

Quote:
Then i don't understand what it has to do with Isis.

Moses didn't kill someone on purpose. Isis does kill intentionnally people (civilians)
Moses immediatly repented. Isis doesn't repent, they continue.

Have we read the sames verses ?

28.15 (...) So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.

28.16 He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

Why did he said that it was because of the devil soon after he killed the man and why did he asked forgiveness then if it was his intention to kill him ?

Where this person asked Moses to kill the man ? He asked for help only.

28.15 And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies.

Don't come with therories, saying that he wanted this or that if in the Quran there's nothing about it.

Why he asked forgiveness then and why Allah ACCEPTED to forgive him then ?
If it's not a sin there's nothing to forgive, right ?
Note 28:15 came in two distinct part.

28.15
1. And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him.

2. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.

My point was when Moses responded to help the person of his own caste [point 1], it was intentional to join in the fight. Otherwise he should not have joined in the fight.
As I said, we don't know the real circumstances, it could be a mere quarrel, but I presume it was a serious fight else the term 'enemies' would not have been mentioned.
In wars and serious fights even if there is no direct intention of killing the enemy but killing is expected to happen.

In point 2, Moses felt guilty, so he asked for forgiveness and blamed the devil. I believe he was asking for forgiveness that he intentionally joined in the fight that result in killing the enemy.
As I said the details of the circumstances were not given.
The principle is if it is a sin then ask for forgiveness and if it justified Allah will give mercy.

In ISIS' case I was referring to the burning of the Jordanian [personally I condemn such horrific acts].
However I am interpreting from how ISIS see their point of view [I personally do not agree].
They justified their acts based on they interpret the Quran that they as Muslims are fighting enemies.
So to them it is not wrong to kill their enemies in whatever form in accordance to the Quran as in examples of what Allah did to infidels in Hell.

Now here is the point;
If for any reason the followers of ISIS suddenly feel they have doubts on their acts like what how Moses felt guilty in 28:15, then they can ask for forgiveness and let Allah decide.
At present I don't think they will feel guilty.

As for the killing of civilians [I strongly condemn this but it is off topic] they would have their own interpretations from the Quran to justify it but if they are wrong then they will have to face Allah's judgment.
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