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Old 10-25-2015, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My view is objective and logical but that is a basic principle all normal human being should abide with. Not to do so would be 'irrational' in that respect.
The Quran-MGA is Allah's words and it is imperative a Muslim must comply with Allah's Absolute words as much as possible to the best of the Muslim's ability. More so, a Muslim should not go against what is in the Quran-MGA. This principle is indisputable and imperative.

The Muslims you know and are not in line with the basic principle I proposed [re compliance with the Quran-MGA] are not the best of Muslims. The Quran [in many verses] ranked Muslims in terms of grading/degrees and accord rewards according to what they 'sowed'. If they do not make an attempt to adopt the basic principle, there is a danger they may not reach the passing mark to go the Paradise proper but rather tarry a million years in the hereafter with no certainty of reaching Paradise.

Note Allah asserted 'Submit' is inferior to Believe.
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
The more higher grade and greater certainty of going to Paradise are the 'Men of Understanding' therefore a truer Muslims must get as close as possible to the status as what is deemed to be 'Men of Understanding.'
The 'Men of Understanding' are the ones who believe and comply with as much as possible with the Quran-MGA.

For Islam to believe that All people are born Muslim is a terrible insult and showing no respect to non-Muslims as human beings. This is a negative point to Islam as a religion.

Even if Muslims claim All are born Muslims, what is the basis of their claim?
The basis is none other than what is claimed in the Quran-MGA. No other religions nor humans will agree to All are born Muslims.

That All are born Muslims as claimed in the Quran-MGA is frivolous.
The Quran in many verses differentiate mankind and man-in-general from believers [Muslims].
It is obvious from the Quran, there is aggressive proselytizing on the part of Muhammad to convert the Quraish, idolaters, Jews, Christians and others to his faith, i.e. Islam as per Quran-MGA.

Therefore per Quran-MGA non-Muslims are required to be converted to be Muslims from their previous status as idolaters, Jews, Christians, atheists and as non-Muslims. [infidels, kafir, kuffar, kafara].


The minimal requirement is a Muslim must enter into a covenant with Allah.
This is stated in many verses in the Quran.

I agree intent is critical and counts, e.g. is a Muslim with all intent and purposes kill non-Muslims when wronged within the best they understood the Quran, Allah will reward them accordingly.
But there are no verses in the Quran which state all Muslims will get the same reward.
The general principle in the Quran is the performance of Muslims are graded and rewards are accorded to how much they comply with the Quran-MGA and no where else.
A quick one [there are many other similar verses];
3:163. There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do.
The criticalness of the Quran is not by chapters but rather by individual verses or concepts/principles [represented by set of verses].

It is ridiculous and ineffective to assert Chapter 1 & 112 represent 99% of submission.
Chapter 112 merely assert the principle of Monotheism and Allah is greatest of all. This same principle is claimed by Judaism, Christianity [non-Quran-MGA], Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and other monotheistic religions.

In Chapter 1, the principle of Monotheism is repeated with the concept of religion and Judgment Day.
Again this is nothing special as with other monotheistic religions.
It is only in 1:6-7 that Islam differentiate itself as having a distinct Straight Path which is different from the Judaism [which God is angry with contempt] and Christianity which has been astray.

Now what is this Straight Path which is Islam?
It can only be what is in the Quran-MGA and no where else.
Obviously that Straight Path cannot be from the so accused-as-corrupted Torah, NT, Bhagavad Gita or other holy texts of other monotheistic religions.

Therefore 'What is Islam' must be imperatively and absolutely linked with the Quran-Muhammad-Gabriel-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else!
In which case it would not be possible for a person to perform Islam without knowledge of Muhammad(saws) and the Qur'an.

However there are and have been Muslims with no knowledge of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an.

While it is very probable there are Muslims that follow your [Quran-MGA] model of Islam. Not all Muslims do, especially those with little or no knowledge of the Qur'an. Very few new reverts are Qur'an literate. Yet, they are no less Muslim then the most educated Mufti. You also have all the newborns-through the age of accountability, that have no knowledge of either Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an they are Muslim.

You also have the countless Muslim that lived and died before the birth of Muhammad(saws)
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In which case it would not be possible for a person to perform Islam without knowledge of Muhammad(saws) and the Qur'an.

However there are and have been Muslims with no knowledge of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an.

While it is very probable there are Muslims that follow your [Quran-MGA] model of Islam. Not all Muslims do, especially those with little or no knowledge of the Qur'an. Very few new reverts are Qur'an literate. Yet, they are no less Muslim then the most educated Mufti. You also have all the newborns-through the age of accountability, that have no knowledge of either Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an they are Muslim.

You also have the countless Muslim that lived and died before the birth of Muhammad(saws)
The point is one cannot be a Muslim as a religious adherent to Islam without any reference to the Quran-MGA.
Therefore a person who submit to God as a monotheist, pay some kind of religious tithe, prays 5 times a day, go to a place of worship weekly BUT do not perform the above within the ambit of the Quran-MGA cannot be called a Muslim. That person could be a Hindu [Gita-Krishna], Christian [NT-Jesus] or Jew [OT-Moses].
It is only when the person declare that s/he is doing the above within the Laws of the Quran-MGA that s/he is qualified to be a Muslim.
There is no such thing as an accidental Muslim. One can only be a Muslim upon the awareness and entering a covenant with Allah in accordance to the terms of the Quran-MGA.

If the person has not read the Quran-MGA nor sighted the Quran-MGA, at least s/he should be guided by a recognized Muslim who is expert in the Quran-MGA, declare the Sahadah [the first time] to qualify as a Muslim. I don't think such a case will happen in our modern era and anyone who convert another can easily be shown the Quran to the convert or parents would have used the Quran to introduce Islam to their children.

I gave you an Analogy of an American Citizen and the US Constitution & its related Laws but you do not seem to have read it or did not understand the point.

1. In PRINCIPLE and By Law, All citizens of the USA [Americans] must comply and perform legally as an American within the terms and conditions of the US Constitution and all Federal Laws. Ignorance of the Law is no defense.
2. But not All Americans are fully aware and knowledgeable of the full contents of the US Constitution & and its associated Laws. This is why we need constitutional experts to guide and advise the lay American on serious matters and fine prints of the constitution.
3. There are many American citizens born in the USA who are illiterate.
4. Newborn American citizens are also not aware of the US constitution and its Law.

The above analogy is similar to a Muslim who has met the minimal requirement of having made a covenant with Allah explicitly or implicitly [e.g. born into a Muslim family]. i.e.

1. In PRINCIPLE and by Allah's Law, All Muslims automatically are subject to the ambit of the terms and condition of the Quran-MGA regardless of whether the person has seen or read it. This is the divine principle by Allah in the Quran-MGA so no humans can question it.
2. But not all Muslims are fully aware and knowledgeable of the full contents of the Quran-MGA. This is why we need religious experts, mufti and other experts to guide the lay Muslims. Except for babies and the mentally ill within Muslims family I am certain all Muslims are aware of the existence Quran-MGA even though they may not have read or understand it, thus they rely on their parents and other experts.
3. There are Muslims who are illiterate and those who cannot not understand the Quran in details thus has to depend on the guidance of the experts.
4. Babies born into Muslim families [defaulted as Muslims] are not aware of the existence of the Quran-proper.

I hope you understand what I meant by in PRINCIPLE and by Allah's Law. In other words, in Law a Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah and thus must comply fully with the terms and condition of the Quran-MGA.
Thus by Allah's Law the Muslim is covenanted with the Quran-MGA, and one must comply with the minimal requirements [unless one is a baby] while other non-compulsory rules can be flexed in accordance to one's specific circumstances.

Do you agree with the above?
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,331,770 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is one cannot be a Muslim as a religious adherent to Islam without any reference to the Quran-MGA.
Therefore a person who submit to God as a monotheist, pay some kind of religious tithe, prays 5 times a day, go to a place of worship weekly BUT do not perform the above within the ambit of the Quran-MGA cannot be called a Muslim. That person could be a Hindu [Gita-Krishna], Christian [NT-Jesus] or Jew [OT-Moses].
It is only when the person declare that s/he is doing the above within the Laws of the Quran-MGA that s/he is qualified to be a Muslim.
There is no such thing as an accidental Muslim. One can only be a Muslim upon the awareness and entering a covenant with Allah in accordance to the terms of the Quran-MGA.

If the person has not read the Quran-MGA nor sighted the Quran-MGA, at least s/he should be guided by a recognized Muslim who is expert in the Quran-MGA, declare the Sahadah [the first time] to qualify as a Muslim. I don't think such a case will happen in our modern era and anyone who convert another can easily be shown the Quran to the convert or parents would have used the Quran to introduce Islam to their children.

I gave you an Analogy of an American Citizen and the US Constitution & its related Laws but you do not seem to have read it or did not understand the point.

1. In PRINCIPLE and By Law, All citizens of the USA [Americans] must comply and perform legally as an American within the terms and conditions of the US Constitution and all Federal Laws. Ignorance of the Law is no defense.
2. But not All Americans are fully aware and knowledgeable of the full contents of the US Constitution & and its associated Laws. This is why we need constitutional experts to guide and advise the lay American on serious matters and fine prints of the constitution.
3. There are many American citizens born in the USA who are illiterate.
4. Newborn American citizens are also not aware of the US constitution and its Law.

The above analogy is similar to a Muslim who has met the minimal requirement of having made a covenant with Allah explicitly or implicitly [e.g. born into a Muslim family]. i.e.

1. In PRINCIPLE and by Allah's Law, All Muslims automatically are subject to the ambit of the terms and condition of the Quran-MGA regardless of whether the person has seen or read it. This is the divine principle by Allah in the Quran-MGA so no humans can question it.
2. But not all Muslims are fully aware and knowledgeable of the full contents of the Quran-MGA. This is why we need religious experts, mufti and other experts to guide the lay Muslims. Except for babies and the mentally ill within Muslims family I am certain all Muslims are aware of the existence Quran-MGA even though they may not have read or understand it, thus they rely on their parents and other experts.
3. There are Muslims who are illiterate and those who cannot not understand the Quran in details thus has to depend on the guidance of the experts.
4. Babies born into Muslim families [defaulted as Muslims] are not aware of the existence of the Quran-proper.

I hope you understand what I meant by in PRINCIPLE and by Allah's Law. In other words, in Law a Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah and thus must comply fully with the terms and condition of the Quran-MGA.
Thus by Allah's Law the Muslim is covenanted with the Quran-MGA, and one must comply with the minimal requirements [unless one is a baby] while other non-compulsory rules can be flexed in accordance to one's specific circumstances.

Do you agree with the above?
Our covenant with Allah(swt) does not contain an obligation to read the Qur'an. Our end of the covenant is we will acknowledge and worship only one God(swt) the God(swt) revealed through all the Prophets and not associate any equals, partners or progeny with him.

A person who for reasons beyond his control, is not aware of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an can still be a Muslim if they sincerely believe there is just one God(swt)

the criterion for being a Muslim does not depend on the completion of any task. It is a matter of intention and doing our best in accordance with our ability and knowledge. Islam is very individual, but every person who believes he is Muslim is considered to be part of the Ummah.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,847 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Our covenant with Allah(swt) does not contain an obligation to read the Qur'an. Our end of the covenant is we will acknowledge and worship only one God(swt) the God(swt) revealed through all the Prophets and not associate any equals, partners or progeny with him.

A person who for reasons beyond his control, is not aware of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an can still be a Muslim if they sincerely believe there is just one God(swt)

the criterion for being a Muslim does not depend on the completion of any task. It is a matter of intention and doing our best in accordance with our ability and knowledge. Islam is very individual, but every person who believes he is Muslim is considered to be part of the Ummah.
Let me ask you this;

Is it possible for a person who sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism], is not aware of Muhammad and the Quran, to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?
What is your answer to the above?

My answer is yes, s/he could be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?

The only qualification of a Muslim is only when s/he sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism] and is aware of Muhammad and the Quran-MGA.
The exception is a baby or child born within a Muslim family.

There is a minimal criterion of task in being a Muslim, the person must commit to an intention to enter into a covenant with Allah which automatically deem the Quran-MGA is enforceable on the Muslim regardless of whether s/he is fully knowledgeable of it.

What is critical to a Muslims is whether s/he qualify to be a successful Muslim on Judgment Day. It is no point being a minimal Muslim but failed as Muslim proper on J-Day without the qualifying merit points.

A person who qualify to be called a minimal Muslim could end up of J-Day as judged to a lazy Muslim, a laggard Muslim, a very sinful Muslim, a greedy [hoarding] Muslim, a hypocrite Muslim, a coward Muslim, astray Muslim, and these may not end up in Paradise but tarry & suffers somewhere in the hereafter for millions of years.

Note Muslims will be graded and ranked based on their performance on J-Day.
56:7. And ye [people] will be three kinds: [Grades, rank and Degrees]
In contrast to your limited views above [not good guidance], therefore being a Muslim, a truer Muslim that has a higher assurance of going to Paradise and avoiding possible hell or lower rungs in the hereafter, does depend on the completion of various qualifying tasks as stipulated in the Quran-MGA.

Last edited by Continuum; 10-26-2015 at 11:25 PM..
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,331,770 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Let me ask you this;

Is it possible for a person who sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism], is not aware of Muhammad and the Quran, to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?
What is your answer to the above?

My answer is yes, s/he could be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?

The only qualification of a Muslim is only when s/he sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism] and is aware of Muhammad and the Quran-MGA.
The exception is a baby or child born within a Muslim family.

There is a minimal criterion of task in being a Muslim, the person must commit to an intention to enter into a covenant with Allah which automatically deem the Quran-MGA is enforceable on the Muslim regardless of whether s/he is fully knowledgeable of it.

What is critical to a Muslims is whether s/he qualify to be a successful Muslim on Judgment Day. It is no point being a minimal Muslim but failed as Muslim proper on J-Day without the qualifying merit points.

A person who qualify to be called a minimal Muslim could end up of J-Day as judged to a lazy Muslim, a laggard Muslim, a very sinful Muslim, a greedy [hoarding] Muslim, a hypocrite Muslim, a coward Muslim, astray Muslim, and these may not end up in Paradise but tarry & suffers somewhere in the hereafter for millions of years.

Note Muslims will be graded and ranked based on their performance on J-Day.
56:7. And ye [people] will be three kinds: [Grades, rank and Degrees]
In contrast to your limited views above [not good guidance], therefore being a Muslim, a truer Muslim that has a higher assurance of going to Paradise and avoiding possible hell or lower rungs in the hereafter, does depend on the completion of various qualifying tasks as stipulated in the Quran-MGA.
"Is it possible for a person who sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism], is not aware of Muhammad and the Quran, to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?
What is your answer to the above?"


Yes it is possible. and if they are truly sincere it is probable they are performing Islam without knowing that is the name of worshiping one God(swt)

As Islam is not the name of a specific religion it is possible for a Muslim to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, etc until they learn of Muhammad(saws) and the Qur'an.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,847 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
"Is it possible for a person who sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism], is not aware of Muhammad and the Quran, to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?
What is your answer to the above?"

Yes it is possible. and if they are truly sincere it is probable they are performing Islam without knowing that is the name of worshiping one God(swt)

As Islam is not the name of a specific religion it is possible for a Muslim to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, etc until they learn of Muhammad(saws) and the Qur'an.
If your answer is 'yes' and it is possible for the person to be Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai, then it cannot s/he cannot be exclusively a Muslim.

Woodrow LI: it is possible for a Muslim to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, etc
This is very bad logic in the general sense.

"Islam" is specific to the Quran-MGA,
The Quran-MGA is specific to Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah
Therefore "Islam" is specific to Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA]

The Quran-MGA dictate one can only be a Muslim [as adherent of Islam] after making a covenant with its Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions as stated within the Quran-MGA and no where else.

A Hindu enter into a covenant with a monotheistic God named Brahman in accordance to the terms and conditions of the Bhagavad Gita.
So there is no way a Hindu can be a Muslim as an adherent of Islam because a Hindu did not enter into a covenant with Allah of the Quran-MGA

IF I am a Jew, Christian, or Hindu, I will feel very insulted if a Muslim insist I am [or possible to be] a 'Muslim of Islam,' especially when there are SOME [not all] Muslims committing such terrible evils and violence around the world.
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,331,770 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If your answer is 'yes' and it is possible for the person to be Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai, then it cannot s/he cannot be exclusively a Muslim.

Woodrow LI: it is possible for a Muslim to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, etc
This is very bad logic in the general sense.

"Islam" is specific to the Quran-MGA,
The Quran-MGA is specific to Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah
Therefore "Islam" is specific to Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA]

The Quran-MGA dictate one can only be a Muslim [as adherent of Islam] after making a covenant with its Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions as stated within the Quran-MGA and no where else.

A Hindu enter into a covenant with a monotheistic God named Brahman in accordance to the terms and conditions of the Bhagavad Gita.
So there is no way a Hindu can be a Muslim as an adherent of Islam because a Hindu did not enter into a covenant with Allah of the Quran-MGA

IF I am a Jew, Christian, or Hindu, I will feel very insulted if a Muslim insist I am [or possible to be] a 'Muslim of Islam,' especially when there are SOME [not all] Muslims committing such terrible evils and violence around the world.

It I were to say it in English, without using any Arabic words it might be easier to understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
"Is it possible for a person who sincerely believe there is just one God [i.e. monotheism], is not aware of Muhammad and the Quran, to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai?
What is your answer to the above?"

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Yes it is possible. and if they are truly sincere it is probable they are performing the act of submitting to God, without knowing the name of worshiping one God(swt)

As submitting to God, is not the name of a specific religion it is possible for a Submitter to be a Jew, Christian, Hindu, etc until they learn of Muhammad(saws) and the Qur'an.
Our disagreement is basically over if Islam is the Name of a Specific Religion.It is not. although if a person has the ability to know about the Qur'an, Muhammad(saws) and the Madhabs the only way they can submit to God is by following the 5 pillars of Submission which are:


1) The Testimony of Faith:

2) Prayer:

3) Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy):


4) Fasting during the Month of Ramadan:


5) The Pilgrimage to Makkah:
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