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Old 10-21-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Thank you for the education on Ayatollahs.

Quote:
The critical factors are the quality the leader and the ideology or religious
doctrines. If we have a psychopathic leader with an evil laden ideology, e.g. Hitler and Nazism then we have a problem.
Similarly if we have
1. a psychopathic leader abusing
2. a religion that has evil laden elements within its holy texts,
then humanity will experience terrible evils and violence as what is going in reality at present.
Hitler was elected with 43% of the vote (same as Bill Clinton). Does the highlighted part of your post apply to the ISIS 'Caliph' as well?

El Nox
Note 1. & 2. added by me.

Point 1 above do not apply to the ISIS 'Caliph' which did not start directly with a psychopathic leader.
The concept of the 'Caliph' is mentioned in various verses in the Quran, i.e. by Allah.
Thus the very zealous and the majority of Muslims would yearn for a Caliphate as had existed in the past.
Those who are very zealous would have an intense desire for a Caliphate and they are potentially ready for it to materialize when the situation warrant. The situation in Syria and Iraq enable them to start a Caliphate and they choose a leader for it. The leader is merely a figure head and is secondary as he can replaced any time.

...The main element is the existence of the concept arising from the Quran. Thus even if ISIS is got rid off, some other core group of fundamentalists can start another caliphate any time where the circumstances allow it the opportunity.

Note this real intense desire of the fundamentalist,
Flag of Islam Will Fly Over "White House"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWh7UPP7b6Q

With such intense desire they will do anything.
Another critical problem is the significance of the quantum.
If the zeal is from a crackpot and a few followers, it is of no issue.
But with 1.5 billion believers, and if only 10% has such a zeal [and similar], we are talking of 150 million evil prone believers.

.
Point 2 definitely is applicable to ISIS.
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Old 10-22-2015, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 1. & 2. added by me.

Point 1 above do not apply to the ISIS 'Caliph' which did not start directly with a psychopathic leader.
The concept of the 'Caliph' is mentioned in various verses in the Quran, i.e. by Allah.
Thus the very zealous and the majority of Muslims would yearn for a Caliphate as had existed in the past.
Those who are very zealous would have an intense desire for a Caliphate and they are potentially ready for it to materialize when the situation warrant. The situation in Syria and Iraq enable them to start a Caliphate and they choose a leader for it. The leader is merely a figure head and is secondary as he can replaced any time.

...The main element is the existence of the concept arising from the Quran. Thus even if ISIS is got rid off, some other core group of fundamentalists can start another caliphate any time where the circumstances allow it the opportunity.

Note this real intense desire of the fundamentalist,
Flag of Islam Will Fly Over "White House"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWh7UPP7b6Q

With such intense desire they will do anything.
Another critical problem is the significance of the quantum.
If the zeal is from a crackpot and a few followers, it is of no issue.
But with 1.5 billion believers, and if only 10% has such a zeal [and similar], we are talking of 150 million evil prone believers.

.
Point 2 definitely is applicable to ISIS.
A point that needs to be taken into consideration. The Individualism of each Muslim and the deep dislike most of us have towards any self proclaimed religious leader.

Very many, I believe the overwhelming majority of Muslims believe there will not be a Caliph and Caliphate until after the Return of Jesus(a.s.), the coming of the Mehdi and the destruction of the Dajjal(anti-Christ)

Until that happens any person claiming to be a Caliph will be seen as a follower of the Dajall (anti-Christ) and an enemy of Islam by the majority of Muslims.

There will be evil people claiming to be be a Caliph before the return of Jesus(a.s.) but the vast majority of Muslims will believe them to either be the Dajjal or a follower of the Dajjal.

For those reasons any person claiming to be a Caliph is going to be seen as an enemy of Islam, not a person to be followed.

Quote:
The Return (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ عليه السلام



The Bible describes in a vivid language the corruption, destruction, and death typifying the End of Times. We see the godly forces confronting the evil forces of Satan, the Anti-Christ, and Gog and Magog. We learn that the cataclysmic events will take place in the Middle East. But still the picture needs to be completed.

Among these, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم have foretold the return of Jesus عليه السلام . Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has prophesied about several events that will occur just before the advent of the day of judgment. The return of Jesus will occur AFTER the Anti-Christ (known in Islam as the Dajjal, meaning the Deceiver who claims to be God) appears and attempts to deceive people into worshipping him. Then, Jesus (the Messiah) عليه السلام will descend from Heaven, pursue and kill the Anti-Christ, and destroy the savage and unbelieving armies of Gog and Magog, and bring peace and brotherhood to the World.

Christians will recognize the truth and accept Jesus عليه السلام as a Muslim Prophet and Messenger of God. The religion of God (Islam) will justly rule the World. There will be no more oppression or wars, and peace will prevail. Furthermore, there will be no need to collect Jizyah (tax levied on Christians & Jews in Islamic states) because Christianity and Judaism will end. Every human being will be financially well-off and no one will accept charity. Jesus عليه السلام will perform Hajj (pilgrimage), marry, begets children, and die after living on Earth. His death will signal the beginning of the last days for humanity before the Day of Judgment.

Return of Jesus
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A point that needs to be taken into consideration. The Individualism of each Muslim and the deep dislike most of us have towards any self proclaimed religious leader.

Very many, I believe the overwhelming majority of Muslims believe there will not be a Caliph and Caliphate until after the Return of Jesus(a.s.), the coming of the Mehdi and the destruction of the Dajjal(anti-Christ)

Until that happens any person claiming to be a Caliph will be seen as a follower of the Dajall (anti-Christ) and an enemy of Islam by the majority of Muslims.

There will be evil people claiming to be be a Caliph before the return of Jesus(a.s.) but the vast majority of Muslims will believe them to either be the Dajjal or a follower of the Dajjal.

For those reasons any person claiming to be a Caliph is going to be seen as an enemy of Islam, not a person to be followed.
In the points above I did not mention there is any self-proclaimed Caliph.
In ISIS' case they do yearn for a Caliphate but there is no self-proclaimed Caliph.
I heard Abū Bakr al-Baghdādi speech on CNN earlier on, he mentioned he was merely asked to be the leader and presumably a figure head. That is why we do not hear much of him.

The article you mentioned about the 2nd coming of Christ is pure fantasy without strong divinity support. The merely mentioned 4:159 and 43:61 and most of the English translations do not mentioned Jesus in 43:61.

You need to support with more reference from the Quran to lend it more credible divine support.
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Old 10-22-2015, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the points above I did not mention there is any self-proclaimed Caliph.
In ISIS' case they do yearn for a Caliphate but there is no self-proclaimed Caliph.
I heard Abū Bakr al-Baghdādi speech on CNN earlier on, he mentioned he was merely asked to be the leader and presumably a figure head. That is why we do not hear much of him.

The article you mentioned about the 2nd coming of Christ is pure fantasy without strong divinity support. The merely mentioned 4:159 and 43:61 and most of the English translations do not mentioned Jesus in 43:61.

You need to support with more reference from the Quran to lend it more credible divine support.
In order to find what most Muslims believe, you need to consult each Muslim individually not assume all interpret the Qur'an inthe same way or even that all have read the Qur'an.

While there are "Sola Scriptura Muslims" Qur'an only Muslims, Nearly 90% of the world's Muslims are Sunni which means "Followers of Sunnah" As the Sunnah can on only be found in the 4 Madhabs (Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali and Hanafi) The majority of Muslims use one of the 4 Madhabs as their source of Islam--Not the Qur'an.

The question is not about what a Muslim should do or believe, it is what do most Muslims actually do and believe.

I think you are going down the 'Primrose path" by assuming the Qur'an is the source of violence by some Muslim.

The cause is probably much more simple. Evil self proclaimed leaders taking advantage of uneducated, unorganized people. The happenings in the Mideast over the past 120 years has provided a very large population of uneduacted, disorganized people, ripe and ready to be the pawns of despots.
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In order to find what most Muslims believe, you need to consult each Muslim individually not assume all interpret the Qur'an in the same way or even that all have read the Qur'an.
I don't have to consult each individual Muslim, and that is ridiculous.

1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Thus what is applicable is the Principle as in 1 above.

Therefore regardless of how the individual or group of Muslims interpret the Quran, the controlling factor is 1 above.

Analogy: What is 'American' is centrally defined by the US Constitution, regardless of how the individual citizens of US interpret it or even if they have not read the US Constitution.
Note 'Ignorance of the Law is no Defense' in general jurisprudence.

Similarly ignorance of Allah's conditions and laws is no defense since the Muslim has entered into a covenant with Allah

Therefore a Muslim must comply with solely what is in the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else. Allah will not accept any thing else other than his Quran-MGA!

If a Muslim interpret Allah's word & law wrongly and acted upon it, that Muslim will be punished accordingly [with provisions for ignorance and unintentionality].
A Muslim will be rewarded positively for his good deeds and punished for his ill deeds, with provision for forgiveness, mercy and offset of ill deed with good deeds. This is based on the Quran-MGA and nothing else.

Therefore I don't need to consult each Muslim individually on what they believe.
All I need is to invoke the Principle as in 1 above. How true a Muslim is will depend on how much he has complied with the Quran-MGA.


Quote:
While there are "Sola Scriptura Muslims" Qur'an only Muslims, Nearly 90% of the world's Muslims are Sunni which means "Followers of Sunnah" As the Sunnah can on only be found in the 4 Madhabs (Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali and Hanafi) The majority of Muslims use one of the 4 Madhabs as their source of Islam--Not the Qur'an.
The above is not critical.
As I had said, what is critical is the basic Principle, i.e.
1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Analogy: In the US, you may have Republicans, Democrats, independents as Americans. What counts is their compliance to the US Constitution as the central controlling Law.

Similarly with the community of Muslims you may have Sunni and their Madhabs, Shia and other groups.
On J-Day, Allah will not give a damn how Muslims organize themselves or give names to the group. All Allah will do is to judge them in accordance to what he has dictated in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel, i.e. the Quran-MGA.
Note Allah condemn those who split the religion into sects and I believe the Madhabs could be guilty of this especially where their tenets are not align with what is in the Quran.
30:31. Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty [as Muslims] unto Him, and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him);
30:32. of those who split up their religion [deenahum] and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets.
Quote:
The question is not about what a Muslim should do or believe, it is what do most
Muslims actually do and believe.
The above is very odd and wrong.
Note the Principle I listed above.

1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Therefore a true Muslim is one that must comply [believe and do] what is in the Quran-MGA and no where else.
This is indisputable.

What they actually do or believe could be wrong and not in line with what is in the Quran-MGA.
Thus what is critical is what must be done within the Quran-MGA and follow up with checking whether what they have actually done is in compliance with what must be done within the Quran-MGA.

Your proposal above is wrong!

Quote:
I think you are going down the 'Primrose path" by assuming the Qur'an is the source of violence by some Muslim.
I am not assuming. What I am doing is to trace the ultimate root causes of the very glaring terrible evils and violence that is committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. I have found the evil laden verses in the Quran [in part] to be one of the ultimate root causes. This is about tracing objective facts and not based on mere speculations.
One clue is the fundamentalists always quote the Quran to support their evil acts.

Quote:
The cause is probably much more simple. Evil self proclaimed leaders taking advantage of uneducated, unorganized people. The happenings in the Mideast over the past 120 years has provided a very large population of uneduacted, disorganized people, ripe and ready to be the pawns of despots.
As discussed in another posts, there is hierarchy of causes. What you listed above are merely the secondary proximate causes and not the ultimate root causes.
Evils come all varieties in continuum from low [1] to high [100] and Islamic-related evils occur in many places where there are Muslims complying with the Quran-MGA. Whilst what is happening in the Middle-east is prominent there is a wide range of evils happening elsewhere in various regularity.

Note this recent incident in Indonesia [non-Middle_east];
Thousands of people, mostly Christians, have left Aceh Singkil regency, Aceh, for neighboring regencies in North Sumatra after an Islamic group attacked a village and set fire to a church. - Thousands leave Aceh after church burning | The Jakarta Post

Authorities in Indonesia's conservative Aceh province on Monday began tearing down several small Christian churches after hardline Muslims demanded their closure, citing a lack of building permits, and following religious violence.
Indonesia's Aceh demolishes churches after deadly unrest - Channel NewsAsia
Why do they need to burn down place of worship of other religions, in this case, Christianity.
The inspiration and motivation are from verses in the Quran-MGA right from the start i.e. 1:7 and all throughout the Quran.
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Old 10-23-2015, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't have to consult each individual Muslim, and that is ridiculous.

1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Thus what is applicable is the Principle as in 1 above.

Therefore regardless of how the individual or group of Muslims interpret the Quran, the controlling factor is 1 above.

Analogy: What is 'American' is centrally defined by the US Constitution, regardless of how the individual citizens of US interpret it or even if they have not read the US Constitution.
Note 'Ignorance of the Law is no Defense' in general jurisprudence.

Similarly ignorance of Allah's conditions and laws is no defense since the Muslim has entered into a covenant with Allah

Therefore a Muslim must comply with solely what is in the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else. Allah will not accept any thing else other than his Quran-MGA!

If a Muslim interpret Allah's word & law wrongly and acted upon it, that Muslim will be punished accordingly [with provisions for ignorance and unintentionality].
A Muslim will be rewarded positively for his good deeds and punished for his ill deeds, with provision for forgiveness, mercy and offset of ill deed with good deeds. This is based on the Quran-MGA and nothing else.

Therefore I don't need to consult each Muslim individually on what they believe.
All I need is to invoke the Principle as in 1 above. How true a Muslim is will depend on how much he has complied with the Quran-MGA.


The above is not critical.
As I had said, what is critical is the basic Principle, i.e.
1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Analogy: In the US, you may have Republicans, Democrats, independents as Americans. What counts is their compliance to the US Constitution as the central controlling Law.

Similarly with the community of Muslims you may have Sunni and their Madhabs, Shia and other groups.
On J-Day, Allah will not give a damn how Muslims organize themselves or give names to the group. All Allah will do is to judge them in accordance to what he has dictated in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel, i.e. the Quran-MGA.
Note Allah condemn those who split the religion into sects and I believe the Madhabs could be guilty of this especially where their tenets are not align with what is in the Quran.
30:31. Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty [as Muslims] unto Him, and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him);
30:32. of those who split up their religion [deenahum] and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets.
The above is very odd and wrong.
Note the Principle I listed above.

1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Therefore a true Muslim is one that must comply [believe and do] what is in the Quran-MGA and no where else.
This is indisputable.

What they actually do or believe could be wrong and not in line with what is in the Quran-MGA.
Thus what is critical is what must be done within the Quran-MGA and follow up with checking whether what they have actually done is in compliance with what must be done within the Quran-MGA.

Your proposal above is wrong!

I am not assuming. What I am doing is to trace the ultimate root causes of the very glaring terrible evils and violence that is committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. I have found the evil laden verses in the Quran [in part] to be one of the ultimate root causes. This is about tracing objective facts and not based on mere speculations.
One clue is the fundamentalists always quote the Quran to support their evil acts.

As discussed in another posts, there is hierarchy of causes. What you listed above are merely the secondary proximate causes and not the ultimate root causes.
Evils come all varieties in continuum from low [1] to high [100] and Islamic-related evils occur in many places where there are Muslims complying with the Quran-MGA. Whilst what is happening in the Middle-east is prominent there is a wide range of evils happening elsewhere in various regularity.

Note this recent incident in Indonesia [non-Middle_east];
Thousands of people, mostly Christians, have left Aceh Singkil regency, Aceh, for neighboring regencies in North Sumatra after an Islamic group attacked a village and set fire to a church. - Thousands leave Aceh after church burning | The Jakarta Post

Authorities in Indonesia's conservative Aceh province on Monday began tearing down several small Christian churches after hardline Muslims demanded their closure, citing a lack of building permits, and following religious violence.
Indonesia's Aceh demolishes churches after deadly unrest - Channel NewsAsia
Why do they need to burn down place of worship of other religions, in this case, Christianity.
The inspiration and motivation are from verses in the Quran-MGA right from the start i.e. 1:7 and all throughout the Quran.
My primary disagreement is with this:

Quote:
1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Thus what is applicable is the Principle as in 1 above.
A Muslim is a person who performs the act of Islam to the best of their ability. We do not follow Islam, we perform Islam. A somewhat different connotation from the concept following Islam.

Quote:
Every person who starts Islam is a Muslim (although Muslim can be any submission to Allah as well, as may be the case for even people of the book). The name of Islam is Islam to show its highest goal (being submitted to Allah) but this submission has only one constraint, it should be truthful not only a word of mouth or even a decision of mind not backing with proper behavior at the times of examinations.

So becoming Muslim starts from saying the world by mouth (say, after seeing a spark of light in the hearth, an evolution in hearth, feeling a presence of Allah and similarly other cases).
Then this statement absorbs examinations to the new Muslim, he would be examined at the same time that he is gradually learning Islam, its ideology and Shari'ah. The examinations have at least one important objective, the person would find his weak points as Allah says "For thy Lord is (as a Guardian) on a watch-tower" (Al-Fajr:14), he can either choose to accept the weak point and try to resolve it or simply deny it arrogantly.
He cannot pass to a higher level until he passes the examinations successfully, step by step.
At some point (perhaps from the very beginning that he faces the examinations for the first time and decide to overcome his weak points, switching from only tongue to also mind situation?) the rather new Muslim will feel the joy of presence of Allah all over around as a sign of faith, as faith is now touching his hearth.
However, he is now only a beginner in being faithful as Allah says: "O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray."(An-Nesaa':136) or similarly "**O ye that believe! Fear Allah, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. **"(Al-Hadid: 28). The point to focus on here is "O ye who believe! Believe …" so that becoming faithful has degrees, the Muslim should travel his journey toward Allah step by step. There are a bunch of verses guiding the believer how to think and behave for him to improve, as Quran is the book of guidance for those who believe (according to Quran itself)!
Faith and fear of Allah (fear of his Justice, being decent before his majesty: Taghva) are related to each other as faith in hearth causes Taghva (piety) in behavior (avoiding sins and not being in observance to his commands), Taghva in behavior brings back confidence (yagheen) which again makes the faith of the faithful person stronger. This chain is the right way (Serat-e-Mostaghim) toward Allah that no one reaches it but the truthful men, those who say we believe and then prove it in action (Al-Aghaf:13, Fosselat:30):

terminology - What is the definition of Muslim according to the Holy Quran? - Islam Stack Exchange
In the above it should be noted that the "examinations" are self examinations as we alone are responsible for learning how to submit fully to Allaah(swt) Our covenant is individual and personal.

Quote:
We as Muslims therefore should ensure the following:

Offer prayers regularly at the fixed times and by consciously standing in front of The Almighty Allah with total submission.
Become cognizant about what Allah has forbidden and making a conscious effort to stay away from it. Just as we love to keep our bodies clean, we should be concerned about keeping our hearts untainted and pure by guarding ourselves from all that is dirty, evil, false and worthless in our talk, and from everything else that we have been forbidden.
Promptly pay Zakat as soon as it is due and not delaying or making excuses, for the Zakat amount is ‘poor due’ and doesn’t belong to us.
Not become brazen about matters pertaining to sex, or immune to shamelessness and promiscuity. Preserving human dignity and decency paves the way for a healthy society.
Find legitimate gratification of desires only in our spouses.
Not betray trust or go back on one’s word.

These verses explicitly convey that abiding by these get us into Paradise for eternal happiness!
The Profile of a Muslim or Mu'min | IqraSense.com
In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah?
See: In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah? | People - Opposing Views
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 10-23-2015 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 10-23-2015, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't have to consult each individual Muslim, and that is ridiculous.

1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Thus what is applicable is the Principle as in 1 above.

Therefore regardless of how the individual or group of Muslims interpret the Quran, the controlling factor is 1 above.

Analogy: What is 'American' is centrally defined by the US Constitution, regardless of how the individual citizens of US interpret it or even if they have not read the US Constitution.
Note 'Ignorance of the Law is no Defense' in general jurisprudence.

Similarly ignorance of Allah's conditions and laws is no defense since the Muslim has entered into a covenant with Allah

Therefore a Muslim must comply with solely what is in the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else. Allah will not accept any thing else other than his Quran-MGA!

If a Muslim interpret Allah's word & law wrongly and acted upon it, that Muslim will be punished accordingly [with provisions for ignorance and unintentionality].
A Muslim will be rewarded positively for his good deeds and punished for his ill deeds, with provision for forgiveness, mercy and offset of ill deed with good deeds. This is based on the Quran-MGA and nothing else.

Therefore I don't need to consult each Muslim individually on what they believe.
All I need is to invoke the Principle as in 1 above. How true a Muslim is will depend on how much he has complied with the Quran-MGA.


The above is not critical.
As I had said, what is critical is the basic Principle, i.e.
1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Analogy: In the US, you may have Republicans, Democrats, independents as Americans. What counts is their compliance to the US Constitution as the central controlling Law.

Similarly with the community of Muslims you may have Sunni and their Madhabs, Shia and other groups.
On J-Day, Allah will not give a damn how Muslims organize themselves or give names to the group. All Allah will do is to judge them in accordance to what he has dictated in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel, i.e. the Quran-MGA.
Note Allah condemn those who split the religion into sects and I believe the Madhabs could be guilty of this especially where their tenets are not align with what is in the Quran.
30:31. Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty [as Muslims] unto Him, and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him);
30:32. of those who split up their religion [deenahum] and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets.
The above is very odd and wrong.
Note the Principle I listed above.

1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Therefore a true Muslim is one that must comply [believe and do] what is in the Quran-MGA and no where else.
This is indisputable.

What they actually do or believe could be wrong and not in line with what is in the Quran-MGA.
Thus what is critical is what must be done within the Quran-MGA and follow up with checking whether what they have actually done is in compliance with what must be done within the Quran-MGA.

Your proposal above is wrong!

I am not assuming. What I am doing is to trace the ultimate root causes of the very glaring terrible evils and violence that is committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. I have found the evil laden verses in the Quran [in part] to be one of the ultimate root causes. This is about tracing objective facts and not based on mere speculations.
One clue is the fundamentalists always quote the Quran to support their evil acts.

As discussed in another posts, there is hierarchy of causes. What you listed above are merely the secondary proximate causes and not the ultimate root causes.
Evils come all varieties in continuum from low [1] to high [100] and Islamic-related evils occur in many places where there are Muslims complying with the Quran-MGA. Whilst what is happening in the Middle-east is prominent there is a wide range of evils happening elsewhere in various regularity.

Note this recent incident in Indonesia [non-Middle_east];
Thousands of people, mostly Christians, have left Aceh Singkil regency, Aceh, for neighboring regencies in North Sumatra after an Islamic group attacked a village and set fire to a church. - Thousands leave Aceh after church burning | The Jakarta Post

Authorities in Indonesia's conservative Aceh province on Monday began tearing down several small Christian churches after hardline Muslims demanded their closure, citing a lack of building permits, and following religious violence.
Indonesia's Aceh demolishes churches after deadly unrest - Channel NewsAsia
Why do they need to burn down place of worship of other religions, in this case, Christianity.
The inspiration and motivation are from verses in the Quran-MGA right from the start i.e. 1:7 and all throughout the Quran.
As this:
Quote:
As discussed in another posts, there is hierarchy of causes. What you listed above are merely the secondary proximate causes and not the ultimate root causes.
Evils come all varieties in continuum from low [1] to high [100] and Islamic-related evils occur in many places where there are Muslims complying with the Quran-MGA. Whilst what is happening in the Middle-east is prominent there is a wide range of evils happening elsewhere in various regularity.

Note this recent incident in Indonesia [non-Middle_east];Thousands of people, mostly Christians, have left Aceh Singkil regency, Aceh, for neighboring regencies in North Sumatra after an Islamic group attacked a village and set fire to a church. - Thousands leave Aceh after church burning | The Jakarta Post

Authorities in Indonesia's conservative Aceh province on Monday began tearing down several small Christian churches after hardline Muslims demanded their closure, citing a lack of building permits, and following religious violence.
Indonesia's Aceh demolishes churches after deadly unrest - Channel NewsAsia
Is quite intensive in itself. I am addressing it here in a post seperate from my above reply.

First thing to do is see what Aceh province is and why/how it came to be.

Aceh Province is very much opposed to the remainder of Indonesia. They have long desired independence from Indonesia. Aceh was essentially 100% Muslim and do not want any non-Muslims in their region.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Indonesia flashpoints: Aceh

Aceh for all pratical reasons is a separate nation from Indonesia.

The issue is "Does a small location within a Nation have the right to allow only one religion?" It seems that is what Aceh is trying to do. Aceh province is over 98% Muslim.

personally I do not think this is as much related to religion as it is about Aceh rebelling against Indonesia which is somewhat tolerant of religious minorities.

Indonesia is quite interesting in demonstrating your sometimes mentions the Happenings in a nation as Islam increases.

Indonesia was virtually 100% Muslim when the first Christian missionaries arrived in 1500. today Indonesia is nearly 13% of the population and becoming quite demanding for ending Sharia rule in Aceh which is less than 1% Christian

This actually is not much different from what one sees happening in any nation when a minority group begins expanding. There is fear by the majority and a surge of unity/protests/extremism among the minority. It makes no difference if the minority is a religion, race or nationality. It does become much more intense when the minority is all 3.
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Old 10-23-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My primary disagreement is with this:
1. In principle a Muslim is a follower of Islam which is in full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
Thus what is applicable is the Principle as in 1 above.
A Muslim is a person who performs the act of Islam to the best of their ability. We do not follow Islam, we perform Islam. A somewhat different connotation from the concept following Islam.

In the above it should be noted that the "examinations" are self examinations as we alone are responsible for learning how to submit fully to Allaah(swt) Our covenant is individual and personal.

In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah?
See: In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah? | People - Opposing Views
You are too pedantic here. There are people who "follow" a religion merely by name only but those are beside the point here.

"Follow Islam" or any religion in general would imply the followers has to comply and perform [where necessary] with the beliefs, doctrines, practices, guidelines, laws, rules, way of worshipping, etc. of the religion.

My intent of using 'follow' was in the most serious sense of being a Muslim, i.e. full compliance with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else.

You keep insisting 'submission' is critical to Islam.
Note Allah asserted 'submission' is inferior to 'believe'.
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?

I agree the covenant is Ultimately individual and personal on J-Day. No one can bear another's load. One will only reap what one has sowed personally.

I'll highlight this link re covenant as an OP.
However, there are verses in the Quran exhorting Muslims to help one another to reinforce one's faith and against non-Muslims who threaten the religion.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Aceh Province is very much opposed to the remainder of Indonesia. They have long desired independence from Indonesia. Aceh was essentially 100% Muslim and do not want any non-Muslims in their region.

This actually is not much different from what one sees happening in any nation when a minority group begins expanding. There is fear by the majority and a surge of unity/protests/extremism among the minority. It makes no difference if the minority is a religion, race or nationality. It does become much more intense when the minority is all 3.
Note Tibet also yearn for independence, so are many other groups but they are not specifically inspired by their religion but tribal impulses. These non-Islamic groups who yearn for independence do not burn Christian churches, other religious temples and kill/harass non-believers.

What is happening in Aceh could be tribal but it is fueled by the Quran [in part not whole].
So the Quran [in part] is one of the ultimate root causes of why Christian churches are burnt merely because they are non-Muslims.
Why are these Muslims in Aceh devoid of empathy and compassion to commit such terrible violence and deprived others of merely worshipping their respective religions?
Besides these Christians are not hindering the Aceh Muslims from worshipping in Islam.
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Old 10-24-2015, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Every person who starts Islam is a Muslim (although Muslim can be any submission to Allah as well, as may be the case for even people of the book). The name of Islam is Islam to show its highest goal (being submitted to Allah) but this submission has only one constraint, it should be truthful not only a word of mouth or even a decision of mind not backing with proper behavior at the times of examinations.

There are a bunch of verses guiding the believer how to think and behave for him to improve, as Quran is the book of guidance for those who believe (according to Quran itself)!
terminology - What is the definition of Muslim according to the Holy Quran? - Islam Stack Exchange In

Quote:
We as Muslims therefore should ensure the following:

Offer prayers regularly at the fixed times and by consciously standing in front of The Almighty Allah with total submission.
Become cognizant about what Allah has forbidden and making a conscious effort to stay away from it. Just as we love to keep our bodies clean, we should be concerned about keeping our hearts untainted and pure by guarding ourselves from all that is dirty, evil, false and worthless in our talk, and from everything else that we have been forbidden.
Promptly pay Zakat as soon as it is due and not delaying or making excuses, for the Zakat amount is ‘poor due’ and doesn’t belong to us.
Not become brazen about matters pertaining to sex, or immune to shamelessness and promiscuity. Preserving human dignity and decency paves the way for a healthy society.
Find legitimate gratification of desires only in our spouses.
Not betray trust or go back on one’s word.

These verses explicitly convey that abiding by these get us into Paradise for eternal happiness!

The Profile of a Muslim or Mu'min | IqraSense.com

In the above it should be noted that the "examinations" are self examinations as we alone are responsible for learning how to submit fully to Allaah(swt) Our covenant is individual and personal.
Note the above two links you mentioned ultimately has to refer to the following,
Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].

The first one mentioned;
There are a bunch of verses guiding the believer how to think and behave for him to improve, as Quran is the book of guidance for those who believe (according to Quran itself)!
So what Quran itself other than
Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].

The 2nd link mentioned;
We as Muslims therefore should ensure the following:
.....

Where do they get the "following" if not from the
Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and no where else.

If they were to refer to anywhere else, they must still comply with the
Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA]


So the ultimate control and authority of Islam and its adherents has to be the
Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else.

In any case, I don't find the presentation in the links and those points you provided is of high spiritual quality.
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