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Note the above two links you mentioned ultimately has to refer to the following, Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
The first one mentioned;
There are a bunch of verses guiding the believer how to think and behave for him to improve, as Quran is the book of guidance for those who believe (according to Quran itself)!
So what Quran itself other than Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA].
The 2nd link mentioned;
We as Muslims therefore should ensure the following:
.....
Where do they get the "following" if not from the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and no where else.
If they were to refer to anywhere else, they must still comply with the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA]
So the ultimate control and authority of Islam and its adherents has to be the Quran<-Muhammad<-Gabriel<-Allah [Quran-MGA] and nothing else.
In any case, I don't find the presentation in the links and those points you provided is of high spiritual quality.
The problem is that is putting definitive constraints on what constitutes Islam. Islam is much simpler. It is simply the submission to Allaah(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge.
The covenant a Muslim has with Allaah(swt) is simply the sincere belief He exists and only he is to be worshiped. The Qur'an simply restates that in a114 different ways. the entire message of the Qur'an is summarized in Surat 1 and 112.
Quote:
1. Surah Al-Fatihah
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful
1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger , nor of those who went astray
112. Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity)
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful
1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.
2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
If a person actually believes that with sincerity, no other command is needed as the person's own love of Allaah(swt) becomes the reason for a person to spend their life, seeking to submit to Allaah(swt) in all things.
While a person, who does believe as you defined, is performing Islam, they are not the only one's who perform Islam or have performed it in the past.
The problem is that is putting definitive constraints on what constitutes Islam. Islam is much simpler. It is simply the submission to Allaah(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge.
What I had put forward is based on Allah's word as revealed in the Quran-MGA.
If you say that is putting definitive constraints on what constitutes Islam, you are in fact compromising [putting forward your own thinking as superior than Allah's] going against God's word.
Islam is not simply 'submission to Allah'. Note Allah implied 'submit' is inferior to 'believe' as how the Men of Understanding comprehend and practice what is in the Quran.
Analogy: As a citizen of a Nation one is supposed to know everything and comply with the Laws of that Nation. Ignorance of the Law is no defense. It is obvious no one can be fully knowledgeable of all the Laws of a Nation, that is why there are the experts to advise and guide. But one cannot have an attitude like yours who say "It is simply this or that .."
My definition and explanation of what is Islam is to describe the full, complete and encompassing Islam and that can only come from the Allah authorized Quran-MGA and no where else.
It cannot be simply 'the submission to Allah' or this or that. Islam is a complete system or ideology as represented in the Allah authorized Quran-MGA and no where else.
I am sure you will agree with me Islam is a complete system or ideology
but because of the Inoculation Theory [Mcquire's] you forcefully resorted to Islam is simply 'the submission to Allah.' You are not doing justice to yourself with such self contradictions.
To say Islam is simply 'the submission to Allah..' is a misrepresentation and give other the wrong impression of what is full range and complete set of Islam. To say Islam is simply 'the submission to Allah' is not effective advice, it could even be bad advice to some.
The danger is when one practice a limited form of Islam [merely submission] one may not acquire sufficient merits to achieve the required pass marks to offset various natural inevitable sins [man is fallible so obviously they will sin in their life].
Quote:
The covenant a Muslim has with Allaah(swt) is simply the sincere belief He exists and only he is to be worshiped. The Qur'an simply restates that in a114 different ways. the entire message of the Qur'an is summarized in Surat 1 and 112.
If a person actually believes that with sincerity, no other command is needed as the person's own love of Allaah(swt) becomes the reason for a person to spend their life, seeking to submit to Allaah(swt) in all things.
While a person, who does believe as you defined, is performing Islam, they are not the only one's who perform Islam or have performed it in the past.
Summary are never effective.
What is the effective of the abstract in any thesis, articles, books or holy texts.
Buddhism can be summarized as 'Life is Sufferings!' and to rely primarily on this will do more harm than good. Come on, let's talk sense.
What I had put forward is based on Allah's word as revealed in the Quran-MGA.
If you say that is putting definitive constraints on what constitutes Islam, you are in fact compromising [putting forward your own thinking as superior than Allah's] going against God's word.
Islam is not simply 'submission to Allah'. Note Allah implied 'submit' is inferior to 'believe' as how the Men of Understanding comprehend and practice what is in the Quran.
Analogy: As a citizen of a Nation one is supposed to know everything and comply with the Laws of that Nation. Ignorance of the Law is no defense. It is obvious no one can be fully knowledgeable of all the Laws of a Nation, that is why there are the experts to advise and guide. But one cannot have an attitude like yours who say "It is simply this or that .."
My definition and explanation of what is Islam is to describe the full, complete and encompassing Islam and that can only come from the Allah authorized Quran-MGA and no where else.
It cannot be simply 'the submission to Allah' or this or that. Islam is a complete system or ideology as represented in the Allah authorized Quran-MGA and no where else.
I am sure you will agree with me Islam is a complete system or ideology
but because of the Inoculation Theory [Mcquire's] you forcefully resorted to Islam is simply 'the submission to Allah.' You are not doing justice to yourself with such self contradictions.
To say Islam is simply 'the submission to Allah..' is a misrepresentation and give other the wrong impression of what is full range and complete set of Islam. To say Islam is simply 'the submission to Allah' is not effective advice, it could even be bad advice to some.
The danger is when one practice a limited form of Islam [merely submission] one may not acquire sufficient merits to achieve the required pass marks to offset various natural inevitable sins [man is fallible so obviously they will sin in their life].
Summary are never effective.
What is the effective of the abstract in any thesis, articles, books or holy texts.
Buddhism can be summarized as 'Life is Sufferings!' and to rely primarily on this will do more harm than good. Come on, let's talk sense.
I think you are trying to make Islam match your definition of "Religion".
It does not meet your criteria and only in a limited sense does it meet the definition of the English word "religion."
Although there are numerous English Language dictionary I believe most Lexicologists accept webster's 1913 unabridged as being the definitive source for the older word. Using that the definition of religion is:
Quote:
1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.
In order to meet that one will need to come to the conclusion that every Muslim follows an individual religion. In Islam there is no one set standard for this "The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god" this is individual. As each Muslim does so in accordance to his abilities and Knowledge.
also there is no single format for this:
"whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies,"
While the Ummah is somewhat analogous to Nation, it differs as it has no defined central leadership. all who claim to perform Islam are members of the Ummah even if the perceived method of doing so differs. As one is expected to do Islam only to the best of their abilities and knowledge. There is no standard one for all criteria, except that the individual is striving to perform to the best of their ability. I really doubt that there are any 2 Muslims that are capable of the exact same things. Islam is a very individual act, even when we try to do it together. Submission to Allaah(swt) is personal, individual and with no intermediaries.
I think you are trying to make Islam match your definition of "Religion".
It does not meet your criteria and only in a limited sense does it meet the definition of the English word "religion."
Although there are numerous English Language dictionary I believe most Lexicologists accept webster's 1913 unabridged as being the definitive source for the older word. Using that the definition of religion is:
Quote:
1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their
recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their
destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or
expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power,
whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by
the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety;
as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed
religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.
In order to meet that one will need to come to the conclusion that every Muslim follows an individual religion. In Islam there is no one set standard for this "The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god" this is individual. As each Muslim does so in accordance to his abilities and Knowledge.
also there is no single format for this:
"whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies,"
While the Ummah is somewhat analogous to Nation, it differs as it has no defined central leadership. all who claim to perform Islam are members of the Ummah even if the perceived method of doing so differs. As one is expected to do Islam only to the best of their abilities and knowledge. There is no standard one for all criteria, except that the individual is striving to perform to the best of their ability. I really doubt that there are any 2 Muslims that are capable of the exact same things. Islam is a very individual act, even when we try to do it together. Submission to Allaah(swt) is personal, individual and with no intermediaries.
I am not trying to make Islam match my definition of "Religion".
What I have attempted and achieved in many posts [you are likely to forget them] is a philosophical analysis of putting 'Islam' as per Quran and 'Religion' as universal practice within the whole perspective of humanity. The alignment of 'Islam' within humanity is a follows;
1. Islam [noun] is 'Deen'
2. Within Islam [noun] as Deen there is a set of practice that is 'religion'. i.e.
......Islam [noun] as 'Deen' = Universal Religion elements + Islam elements with Quran-MGA
3. Universal Religion = As defined by Ninian Smart's 7 Religious Dimensions.
Note your dictionary definition of 'religion' above is very rough and not all inclusive as it mentioned God whereas Buddhism and Jainism as religions do not has the God element.
I have extended that dictionary meaning to a scholarship basis re Ninian Smart, or you can propose other scholarship meaning.
Therefore such a higher intellectual and philosophical approach should be preferred over the merely dictionary meaning.
My above model re [1-3] can be applied to define any religion, e.g. Buddhism
1. Buddhism [noun] is 'Dharma'
2. Within Buddhism [noun] as Dharma there is a set of practice that is 'religion'. i.e.
......Buddhism [noun] as 'Dharma' = Universal Religion elements + Buddhist elements with the Sutras
3. Universal Religion = As defined by Ninian Smart's 7 Religious Dimensions.
You can apply the above standard model to any religion, Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Jainism and any you can think of.
Therefore in the above I have put 'Islam' in the perspective within humanity as how it can be reconciled to all human activities related to a religion.
So Islam [noun] as Deen contain religious elements that are universals and common with all religions PLUS it has other different elements of social, political, economics, ethics, martial, etc. which make Islam an ideology as well.
IMO, it is the additional elements that are added to the universal religious elements that make Islam a liability to humanity when SOME of its believers are triggered by the evil laden elements to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
I am not trying to make Islam match my definition of "Religion".
What I have attempted and achieved in many posts [you are likely to forget them] is a philosophical analysis of putting 'Islam' as per Quran and 'Religion' as universal practice within the whole perspective of humanity. The alignment of 'Islam' within humanity is a follows;
1. Islam [noun] is 'Deen'
2. Within Islam [noun] as Deen there is a set of practice that is 'religion'. i.e.
......Islam [noun] as 'Deen' = Universal Religion elements + Islam elements with Quran-MGA
3. Universal Religion = As defined by Ninian Smart's 7 Religious Dimensions.
Note your dictionary definition of 'religion' above is very rough and not all inclusive as it mentioned God whereas Buddhism and Jainism as religions do not has the God element.
I have extended that dictionary meaning to a scholarship basis re Ninian Smart, or you can propose other scholarship meaning.
Therefore such a higher intellectual and philosophical approach should be preferred over the merely dictionary meaning.
My above model re [1-3] can be applied to define any religion, e.g. Buddhism
1. Buddhism [noun] is 'Dharma'
2. Within Buddhism [noun] as Dharma there is a set of practice that is 'religion'. i.e.
......Buddhism [noun] as 'Dharma' = Universal Religion elements + Buddhist elements with the Sutras
3. Universal Religion = As defined by Ninian Smart's 7 Religious Dimensions.
You can apply the above standard model to any religion, Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Jainism and any you can think of.
Therefore in the above I have put 'Islam' in the perspective within humanity as how it can be reconciled to all human activities related to a religion.
So Islam [noun] as Deen contain religious elements that are universals and common with all religions PLUS it has other different elements of social, political, economics, ethics, martial, etc. which make Islam an ideology as well.
IMO, it is the additional elements that are added to the universal religious elements that make Islam a liability to humanity when SOME of its believers are triggered by the evil laden elements to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
the only definition of Islam that I find applicable to all Muslims is that it is the act of Submission to Allaah(swt)
Anything added beyond that will become the definition of a specific madhab or an individual and not apply to all Muslims.
While it is agreed upon there are 6 beliefs associated with Islam. Only one of them is universal to all Muslims.
Being Muslim is very individualistic and is between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.
To set up a universal criteria of practices that apply to all Muslims is very similar to setting up a universal criteria of practices that apply to all Atheists.---there is none.
the only definition of Islam that I find applicable to all Muslims is that it is the act of Submission to Allaah(swt)
You are speaking for yourself [a fallible human] but that is not in line with what Allah [the Supreme] stated in the Quran-MGA.
Note I have quoted many times, essentially 'submission' is inferior to 'believe' so how can 'submission' be the sole representation and definition of Islam. 'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
The most effective definition as I have repeated many times is;
Islam [noun] is 'Deen' as represented in the Quran revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and directly from Allah. [Quran-MGA].
The concept of 'submission' is merely a sub-element of Islam and therefore cannot be a definition for Islam.
Quote:
Being Muslim is very individualistic and is between the individual and
Allaah(swt) alone.
I strongly dispute this point and I believe this point must be viewed in its respective perspective.
Quote:
To set up a universal criteria of practices that apply to all Muslims is very similar to setting up a universal criteria of practices that apply to all Atheists.---there is none.
An atheist can be easily identified, which is a person who is not-a-theist.
You don't seem to get the point.
Muslims are human beings, therefore there are many things that Muslims do that are common to all human beings, i.e. breathe, eat, sleep, sh:t, dream, etc.
Surely you are not disputing this?
Muslims are human beings, therefore there are many things that Muslims do that are common to a majority ofhuman beings, e.g. enjoy hobbies, swim, being religious, etc.
Muslims are human beings and are religious as the majority, therefore they as religious share similar universal activities, i.e. submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes.
Let call this set similar activities that all religious people share, i.e.
[submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes.] as an universal set-X.
Now what is wrong if we rename this universal set-X as "universal Religion" which is supported by the scholarship research of Ninian Smart and others. If you are uncomfortable we can keep it as 'universal-set-X' since a rose by any name ......
Thus I can say a Muslim as a human being perform universal set-X aka 'universal Religion' just like the majority of human beings, i.e. perform the following [submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes.]
This proposition is undisputable.
Can you dispute this?
One can only identify a Muslim as distinct from other religionists when we say a Muslim is one who perform the universal Religion elements [submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes] in compliance with the Quran-MGA which contain other non-religious elements such as wars, social, economics, etc.
A Hindu is one who perform the universal Religion elements [submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes] in compliance with the Gita-Krishna-Braham which contain other non-[universal]-religious elements such as social, caste system, idols, etc.
You are speaking for yourself [a fallible human] but that is not in line with what Allah [the Supreme] stated in the Quran-MGA.
Note I have quoted many times, essentially 'submission' is inferior to 'believe' so how can 'submission' be the sole representation and definition of Islam. 'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
The most effective definition as I have repeated many times is;
Islam [noun] is 'Deen' as represented in the Quran revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and directly from Allah. [Quran-MGA].
The concept of 'submission' is merely a sub-element of Islam and therefore cannot be a definition for Islam.
I strongly dispute this point and I believe this point must be viewed in its respective perspective.
An atheist can be easily identified, which is a person who is not-a-theist.
You don't seem to get the point.
Muslims are human beings, therefore there are many things that Muslims do that are common to all human beings, i.e. breathe, eat, sleep, sh:t, dream, etc.
Surely you are not disputing this?
Muslims are human beings, therefore there are many things that Muslims do that are common to a majority ofhuman beings, e.g. enjoy hobbies, swim, being religious, etc.
Muslims are human beings and are religious as the majority, therefore they as religious share similar universal activities, i.e. submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes.
Let call this set similar activities that all religious people share, i.e.
[submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes.] as an universal set-X.
Now what is wrong if we rename this universal set-X as "universal Religion" which is supported by the scholarship research of Ninian Smart and others. If you are uncomfortable we can keep it as 'universal-set-X' since a rose by any name ......
Thus I can say a Muslim as a human being perform universal set-X aka 'universal Religion' just like the majority of human beings, i.e. perform the following [submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes.]
This proposition is undisputable.
Can you dispute this?
One can only identify a Muslim as distinct from other religionists when we say a Muslim is one who perform the universal Religion elements [submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes] in compliance with the Quran-MGA which contain other non-religious elements such as wars, social, economics, etc.
A Hindu is one who perform the universal Religion elements [submit, believe, worship, pray, adopt religious doctrines, involve in eschatological matter, and the likes] in compliance with the Gita-Krishna-Braham which contain other non-[universal]-religious elements such as social, caste system, idols, etc.
I wonder you got the point?
How would you fit a Muslim who has never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an into your model?
The only definition of Muslim that fits every Muslim living or dead or yet to be born is a person who performs Islam to the best of his ability and knowledge, even if they do not know it is called Islam.
Islam is strictly between the individual and Allaah(swt) that is why it is impossible to know who is a Muslim and why we have to accept everyone who says they are Muslim as being Muslim.
How would you fit a Muslim who has never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an into your model?
Other than a baby [till religious aware] of Muslim parents, any one who has not heard of Muhammad or the Quran in any way cannot be termed as a Muslim.
According to the Quran-MGA as revealed to Muhammad in 610 AD, a Muslim is one that fulfill certain minimal conditions, i.e. agreed to a covenant with Allah of the Quran-MGA.
The Quran-MGA [610AD] claimed there were past Muslims of old [prior 610AD].
This is only a claim by the Quran-MGA and thus they are pseudo-Muslims not Muslim proper. The Jews and Christians never agreed with the Quran-MGA they [Jews and Christians] are 'Muslims'.
It is only the Quran-MGA which wrongly and forcefully by itself claimed there are Muslims of old.
Rationally, the Quran-MGA [610AD] do not has any rational grounds and right to claim there were 'Muslims' prior to 610AD.
Humanely it is an insult for Muslims to insist others are [possible] Muslims.
Muslims should mind their own business and religious affairs and not intrude the affairs of others.
Quote:
The only definition of Muslim that fits every Muslim living or dead or yet to be
born is a person who performs Islam to the best of his ability and knowledge,
even if they do not know it is called Islam.
Rationally and logically this is wrong.
Muslims by definition only exist after 610AD and never before that, and if they are Muslims after 610AD they must fulfill certain minimal conditions, i.e. agreed to a covenant with Allah of the Quran-MGA-610AD.
Quote:
Islam is strictly between the individual and Allaah(swt) that is why it is impossible to know who is a Muslim and why we have to accept everyone who says they are Muslim as being Muslim.
Your view above is really a bad and irrational proposition. We have discussed this many times.
The Quran-MGA->610AD set out the criteria very clearly on 'what is Islam' and 'who is a Muslim'.
Don't you agree with what your Allah said in the Quran-MGA-610AD?
Last edited by Continuum; 10-27-2015 at 10:37 PM..
Other than a baby [till religious aware] of Muslim parents, any one who has not heard of Muhammad or the Quran in any way cannot be termed as a Muslim.
According to the Quran-MGA as revealed to Muhammad in 610 AD, a Muslim is one that fulfill certain minimal conditions, i.e. agreed to a covenant with Allah of the Quran-MGA.
The Quran-MGA [610AD] claimed there were past Muslims of old [prior 610AD].
This is only a claim by the Quran-MGA and thus they are pseudo-Muslims not Muslim proper. The Jews and Christians never agreed with the Quran-MGA they [Jews and Christians] are 'Muslims'.
It is only the Quran-MGA which wrongly and forcefully by itself claimed there are Muslims of old.
Rationally, the Quran-MGA [610AD] do not has any rational grounds and right to claim there were 'Muslims' prior to 610AD.
Humanely it is an insult for Muslims to insist others are [possible] Muslims.
Muslims should mind their own business and religious affairs and not intrude the affairs of others.
Rationally and logically this is wrong.
Muslims by definition only exist after 610AD and never before that, and if they are Muslims after 610AD they must fulfill certain minimal conditions, i.e. agreed to a covenant with Allah of the Quran-MGA-610AD.
Your view above is really a bad and irrational proposition. We have discussed this many times.
The Quran-MGA->610AD set out the criteria very clearly on 'what is Islam' and 'who is a Muslim'.
Don't you agree with what your Allah said in the Quran-MGA-610AD?
Quote:
Your view above is really a bad and irrational proposition. We have discussed this many times.
The Quran-MGA->610AD set out the criteria very clearly on 'what is Islam' and 'who is a Muslim'.
Don't you agree with what your Allah said in the Quran-MGA-610AD? Y
The Qur'an states what a Muslim is in Surat 1 and 112.
A person who sincerly believes in there being 1 God(swt)
The methodology of worship is not detailed in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an tells us why we should perform Islam, but not how.
An atheist can be easily identified, which is a person who is not-a-theist.
I cannot state what the Islamic position is on the origin of the Universe. Without that knowledge, I am going out on a limb and make the assumption that it is similar/parallel to that of the Jewish and Christian (aka 'People of the Book') in that there was a starting point called Creation.
Your moniker boldly points out that you are "not-a-theist". Accepting the fact that this post is a drift from the OP, I am in line with the flow the topic has taken. Having said that, I am a believer in creation. Just how it was created leaves me wondering ... 7 days, big bang, what ever ... I don't know. However, all of this didn't just magically appear. The stuff of Day 1 just didn't come from nowhere, just as the energy which precipitated the big ban came from somewhere. The point I am making is there is something "which is greater than Man" out there. I have trouble with the much overused word God ... but all of this is something. As a "not-a-theist" and a person of knowledge of the Quran, what is YOUR perception of the origins and how is that view consistent/opposed to the Islamic text?
El Nox
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