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Old 10-20-2015, 08:10 AM
 
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During the height of US involvement in Iraq, there were multiple references to the Grand Ayatollah (the name escapes me now, I think it was Sistani). Then the Ayatollah Sadr's son came on the scene and there was a reference to his "studying the Koran to become an Ayatollah (like Dad). Later I read that to become an Ayatollah you had to in essence create another version of Islam and attract a following. In looking at all of the fragments of Islam (you have a long way to go to catch up to Christianity), how can each justify multiple interpretations of the same text? In Christianity there are different translations which include different books, ie St Jerome (Catholic) and the variants of KJV and its associated language into 'new speak' (I know ... a poor pun), and supplementary texts like the Book of Mormon. So getting back to the question ... how does this happen? How is there a 'Grand Ayatollah' and a bunch of other Ayatollah's when each has in essence created a different sect?
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
During the height of US involvement in Iraq, there were multiple references to the Grand Ayatollah (the name escapes me now, I think it was Sistani). Then the Ayatollah Sadr's son came on the scene and there was a reference to his "studying the Koran to become an Ayatollah (like Dad). Later I read that to become an Ayatollah you had to in essence create another version of Islam and attract a following. In looking at all of the fragments of Islam (you have a long way to go to catch up to Christianity), how can each justify multiple interpretations of the same text? In Christianity there are different translations which include different books, ie St Jerome (Catholic) and the variants of KJV and its associated language into 'new speak' (I know ... a poor pun), and supplementary texts like the Book of Mormon. So getting back to the question ... how does this happen? How is there a 'Grand Ayatollah' and a bunch of other Ayatollah's when each has in essence created a different sect?
I am not all that familiar with the Shi'a, just a very basic grasp.

They do have differences from Sunni. One of them being the following of an Ayatoullah. They also do not use the same Ahadith collections and they do believe the Grand Ayatoullah is to be obeyed as he is Allaah(swt)'s voice on Earth.

Many Sunni do not believe Shi'ites are Muslim. I think I am a rarity as I am a Sunni that does accept them as being Muslim although I disagree with many of their practices and beliefs.
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Old 10-20-2015, 03:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
They do have differences from Sunni. One of them being the following of an Ayatoullah. They also do not use the same Ahadith collections and they do believe the Grand Ayatoullah is to be obeyed as he is Allaah(swt)'s voice on Earth.
Does this qualify him as a Caliph and able to declare a legitimate jihad?

El Nox
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Old 10-20-2015, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Does this qualify him as a Caliph and able to declare a legitimate jihad?

El Nox
Not in the Sunni concept of what a caliph is and what Jihad is.

In the Sunni concept a true Caliph has be be approved by 100% of all Muslims.

We belive there were only 4 righteous Caliphs and there will not be another until the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mehdi and they conquer the Dajal (anti-Christ)

Out of fairness I have to add there are some Sunni that differ from my understanding.

Should also add only the 12er sect of Shi'a follow an ayatoullah and nearly all of them live in Iran and Iraq. Like Sunni the Shi'a do have several different Madhabs and the Madhabs do have differences in beliefs.

However, Sunni do consider the 4 Madhabs of Sunni to be equal and each a legitimate madhab. We do not accept any Shi'a madhab to be valid nor any madhab to be valid except for Maliki, Hanbali, Shafi'i and Hanafi.
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Old 10-20-2015, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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From wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah
Only a few of the most important ayatollahs are accorded the rank of Grand Ayatollah (Ayatollah Uzma, "Great Sign of God"). This usually happens when the followers of one of the ayatollahs refer to him in many situations and ask him to publish his Juristic book in which he answers the vast majority of daily Muslim affairs. The book is called Resalah, which is usually a reinvention of the book Al-Urwatu l-Wuthqah, according to their knowledge of the most authentic Islamic sources and their application to current life.
There are 64 living Maraji worldwide as of 2014, mainly based in Najaf and Qom. -wiki

The emergence of Ayatollahs or Grand ones arise from the default need of the majority of humans to look up to, idolize and follow some higher up than themselves for psychological security and other reasons. This impulse is the same that give rise to Dalai Lamas, Pope and Bishops, Dictators, and other leaders. Usually the most charismatic leader that is accepted by his peers are accepted as the leader.
It is because of human needs and demands that we have a supply of such, e.g. Grand Ayatollahs and others.

In principle within Islam the final authority is from God and that is reflected in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and directly from Allah.

The problem is the majority of the flock are often very gullible people especially when they are subverted as slaves of God and religious leaders being human [of a wide range of psychology] will often abuse and exploit the gullible flock to their tune.

The critical factors are the quality the leader and the ideology or religious doctrines. If we have a psychopathic leader with an evil laden ideology, e.g. Hitler and Nazism then we have a problem. Similarly if we have a psychopathic leader abusing a religion that has evil laden elements within its holy texts, then humanity will experience terrible evils and violence as what is going in reality at present.

The solution is to uplift the wisdom quotient [difficult but not impossible] of the majority so that they will not be vulnerable to exploitations.
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah
Only a few of the most important ayatollahs are accorded the rank of Grand Ayatollah (Ayatollah Uzma, "Great Sign of God"). This usually happens when the followers of one of the ayatollahs refer to him in many situations and ask him to publish his Juristic book in which he answers the vast majority of daily Muslim affairs. The book is called Resalah, which is usually a reinvention of the book Al-Urwatu l-Wuthqah, according to their knowledge of the most authentic Islamic sources and their application to current life.
There are 64 living Maraji worldwide as of 2014, mainly based in Najaf and Qom. -wiki

The emergence of Ayatollahs or Grand ones arise from the default need of the majority of humans to look up to, idolize and follow some higher up than themselves for psychological security and other reasons. This impulse is the same that give rise to Dalai Lamas, Pope and Bishops, Dictators, and other leaders. Usually the most charismatic leader that is accepted by his peers are accepted as the leader.
It is because of human needs and demands that we have a supply of such, e.g. Grand Ayatollahs and others.

In principle within Islam the final authority is from God and that is reflected in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel and directly from Allah.

The problem is the majority of the flock are often very gullible people especially when they are subverted as slaves of God and religious leaders being human [of a wide range of psychology] will often abuse and exploit the gullible flock to their tune.

The critical factors are the quality the leader and the ideology or religious doctrines. If we have a psychopathic leader with an evil laden ideology, e.g. Hitler and Nazism then we have a problem. Similarly if we have a psychopathic leader abusing a religion that has evil laden elements within its holy texts, then humanity will experience terrible evils and violence as what is going in reality at present.

The solution is to uplift the wisdom quotient [difficult but not impossible] of the majority so that they will not be vulnerable to exploitations.
Thank you for the education on Ayatollahs.

Hitler was elected with 43% of the vote (same as Bill Clinton). Does the highlighted part of your post apply to the ISIS 'Caliph' as well?

El Nox
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not in the Sunni concept of what a caliph is and what Jihad is.

In the Sunni concept a true Caliph has be be approved by 100% of all Muslims.

We belive there were only 4 righteous Caliphs and there will not be another until the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mehdi and they conquer the Dajal (anti-Christ)

Out of fairness I have to add there are some Sunni that differ from my understanding.

Should also add only the 12er sect of Shi'a follow an ayatoullah and nearly all of them live in Iran and Iraq. Like Sunni the Shi'a do have several different Madhabs and the Madhabs do have differences in beliefs.

However, Sunni do consider the 4 Madhabs of Sunni to be equal and each a legitimate madhab. We do not accept any Shi'a madhab to be valid nor any madhab to be valid except for Maliki, Hanbali, Shafi'i and Hanafi.
I am curious (I know very little Muslim history), were the '4 righteous Caliphs' also 100%ers?

El Nox
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
I am curious (I know very little Muslim history), were the '4 righteous Caliphs' also 100%ers?

El Nox
They were the first 4 caliphs before the Sunni/Shi'ite split. They were approved by 100% of all Muslims

The four Caliphs
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:46 PM
 
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This is from your link:

After the prophet’s death, Abu Bakr was elected as caliph on the recommendation of Umar.
In spite that his reign period was short as it lasted only two years, Abu Bakr was an ideal leader.
He called Muslims for unity and worked intensely to collect and preserve the texts of the holy Qur’an. He spread Islam from the borders of the Arabian Peninsula into Syria, Palestine and Iraq and faced false prophets and ensured the sameness of Islamic religion and the moral teachings of the holy Qur’an compared to the prophet’s time.

I have to re-emphasize my lack of historical knowledge of Islam (noun-yeah I read that topic too). It has been my understanding that the Koran was transcribed much later from the 'professional rememberers'. But according to this, that transcription began during the prophets life time. If you have the time, please educate me.

El Nox
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
This is from your link:

After the prophet’s death, Abu Bakr was elected as caliph on the recommendation of Umar.
In spite that his reign period was short as it lasted only two years, Abu Bakr was an ideal leader.
He called Muslims for unity and worked intensely to collect and preserve the texts of the holy Qur’an. He spread Islam from the borders of the Arabian Peninsula into Syria, Palestine and Iraq and faced false prophets and ensured the sameness of Islamic religion and the moral teachings of the holy Qur’an compared to the prophet’s time.

I have to re-emphasize my lack of historical knowledge of Islam (noun-yeah I read that topic too). It has been my understanding that the Koran was transcribed much later from the 'professional rememberers'. But according to this, that transcription began during the prophets life time. If you have the time, please educate me.

El Nox
There were several completed Qur'ans before Muhammad(saws) died. The difficulty is they were all written in different alphabet styles.

Arabic did not have a written form until shortly before Muhammad(saws) and even then was essentially a memory tool used by the Hafiz. (Those who had memorized the Qur'an) For all purposes it could only be read by some one who had memorized it. the written letters being simply a memory add. Very similar to the way American shorthand used to be used by stenographers.

Uthman was the first one to standardize the writing of the Qur'an developed the Uthmani script as the standard script for all Qur'ans. No words were changed, just a standard form of each letter was developed to avoid confusion. It was still necessary for a reader of the Qur'an to have memorized it orally first as the written words were still just memory tools to assist the reader.

but getting back to the question, the Qur'an was compiled in it's present order while Muhammad(saws) was still alive.

Quote:
Order of Verses

Muslim scholars agree that the order of the verses in every chapter was done or commanded by the Prophet (saws) himself following the commands of Almighty Allah.

The Prophet (saws) once told his Companions after he had received a certain revelation that the arch-angel Gabriel had specified for him the particular order of verses (Ahmad).

There are also many incidents narrated in the books of Sunnah regarding the Prophet's (saws) recitation during prayer. The Companions used to pray every day behind the Prophet (saws) and he used to recite the Qur'an in the order given to him by Allah, and they used to learn and memorize from his recitation.

There have never been any incident in which any of the Companions reciting in any order that violated the order of the verses showed to us by the Prophet (saws).

Order of Surahs

As for the order of the surahs (chapters), the most accepted view is that it was also applied following an instruction given by Almighty Allah. It has been recorded that the Prophet (saws) reviewed the Qur'an with the arch-angel Gabriel 24 times all within his life.

Every year, he used to review it once during the month of Ramadan with Gabriel. During the final year of the Prophet's life, Gabriel revised the Qur'an twice with the Prophet (saws) as a way of confirming it. The Prophet (saws), in turn, used to follow this order in teaching his Companions and communicating the message to them.
Revelation Order of the Quran
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