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Old 12-27-2015, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Here we disagree completely. No where in the Qur'an does it state we must even read the Qur'an to perform Islam. In fact there are examples of people reaching heaven with know knowledge of the Qur'an or of Muhammad(saws).

The Islamic covenant is the same that was given to all people that preceded Muhammad

7:172 gives the specifics as to what our portion of the covenant is. ( I am giving 3 different translations and keeping each in the context of the discourse within the Surah) 170-172 are the full thought being expressed and must be kept as an undivided statement.

<snip>


As you can see that in accordance with the Qur'an it is the same covenant that has been given to all of mankind, beginning with Adam(PBUH) and passed on to all the Prophets(PBUT) It is not a new covenant and predates the Qur'an. Our part of the covenant is to acknowledge there is but one God(swt) who has no equals, partners or progeny and it is him alone we are to worship.

While we all, Muslims and non-Muslims, will be punished for doing acts contradictory to the Qur'an, it does not mean it will make a Muslim a non-Muslim. A Muslim is still a Muslim and is still in obedience with the covenant as long as He does not place anyone or thing as equal to Allah(swt), A partner of Allaah(swt) or a son/daughter of Allah(swt) It is true we all, Muslim and non-Muslim, will be punished for knowingly of our own free will commit acts that are contradictory to Allaah(swt) it is not part of our covenant. While a Muslim committing an act or not committing an act, will cause us to be punished, it is not a violation of our covenant.

the Islamic concept of covenant is not a mutual agreement, it is 2 sets of promises. We promises to worship only Allah (This is related to the first commandment of the Jewish, Sabeean and Christian first commandment of the 10 commandments.) Allaah(swt)'s promise is he will grant eternal bliss to all who worship him alone, forgive those who sincerely repent of their sins and reward all people for their Good Deeds, but only those who obey the covenant by worshiping Allaah(swt) and only Allaah(swt) will reach Heaven.
Again you are out of context by putting your words into Allah's mouth.


Are you familiar with the following;
Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat
(Latin for "ignorance of the law excuses not" and "ignorance of law excuses no one" )
Another meaning is 'Ignorance of the Law is no defense'
This is a generic universal principle with humans and God [if God exists].


Therefore if a Muslim did not read the Quran and he associated a partner with Allah, there is no excuse for him, and he still he will be punished serverely in accordance to the terms and conditions of the covenant as stated in the Quran, with perhaps some reservation of leniency.


Your mentioned of 7:172 has not critical relevant to the principles of a covenant at all.


Here is a better clue that reflect the Principle of a Covenant [agreement. contract]. I am very familiar with the Law of Contracts 101 and the principles are universal between humans and with God [if it exists].
Note these verses [mine] that indicate a clue to the contents of a covenant;
2:84. And when We [Allah] made with you [Jews] a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your [own Jewish] people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified [promise, consented, agreed] (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).


2:85. Yet ye [Jews] it is who slay [kill -taqtuloona] each other [own Jewish people] and drive out a party of your [own Jewish] people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy [disgrace] in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.


You said the covenant with Allah is the same for all who preceded Muhammad.
2:84 stated the Jews made a covenant with Allah and one of the terms for this verse [surely there are many other terms not applicable here] is;
"Shed not the blood of your [own Jewish] people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings."
Then in 2:85 the Jew did not comply with what was agreed in the covenant.


The above is the covenant the Jews made with Allah but the point from the above is the various stipulations by Allah are the terms and conditions that the believer must comply.


Similarly whatever is stipulated by Allah in the Quran are all the terms and conditions that all Muslims must comply.
"Ignorance of the Law is no defense"
Therefore it is also the onus of each Muslims to find out what is their full obligations within the covenant they made with Allah.
If they do not read the Quran or do not understand, then they have to seek guidance from the 'men of understanding' to be aware of their full obligation as a Muslims as stated in the Quran.


I have read the Quran extensively and I am aware there are many perhaps up to a 1000++ of terms and conditions beside the good tidings, advice, guidelines, etc. I have not compiled them yet [will do in the future].


There are many obligations from Allah as his promise. Allah promised eternal life in paradise filled with superlative delights for the Muslim. There are many other promises which Allah made, e.g. bring the Muslims from darkness to light. Allah even promise the Muslims support in war and will always win when they go to war, e.g.
33:22. And when the true believers [Muslims] saw the clans, they said: This is that which Allah and His messenger promised us [Muslims]. Allah and His messenger are true. It did but confirm them [true Muslims] in their faith and resignation.
Check out the other verses [up to 90++] in the Quran where Allah has promised the believers and many others where Allah's obligations from the covenant are implied.




Again you are coming up with your own views that 'the covenant is not a mutual agreement.'
First if one is not a Muslims there is no mutuality and the kuffar will be burnt in Hell in the worst possible manner in Hell. One can choose not to enter into an agreement with Allah like all non-Muslims did at present.
But once a person become a Muslims by entering into a covenant with Allah, it is mutual, i.e. Allah will be obliged to do his part and the Muslims has to comply as agreed mutually.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-27-2015 at 12:17 AM..
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again you are out of context by putting your words into Allah's mouth.


Are you familiar with the following;
Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat
(Latin for "ignorance of the law excuses not" and "ignorance of law excuses no one" )
Another meaning is 'Ignorance of the Law is no defense'
This is a generic universal principle with humans and God [if God exists].


Therefore if a Muslim did not read the Quran and he associated a partner with Allah, there is no excuse for him, and he still he will be punished serverely in accordance to the terms and conditions of the covenant as stated in the Quran, with perhaps some reservation of leniency.


Your mentioned of 7:172 has not critical relevant to the principles of a covenant at all.


Here is a better clue that reflect the Principle of a Covenant [agreement. contract]. I am very familiar with the Law of Contracts 101 and the principles are universal between humans and with God [if it exists].
Note these verses [mine] that indicate a clue to the contents of a covenant;
2:84. And when We [Allah] made with you [Jews] a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your [own Jewish] people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified [promise, consented, agreed] (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).


2:85. Yet ye [Jews] it is who slay [kill -taqtuloona] each other [own Jewish people] and drive out a party of your [own Jewish] people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy [disgrace] in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.


You said the covenant with Allah is the same for all who preceded Muhammad.
2:84 stated the Jews made a covenant with Allah and one of the terms for this verse [surely there are many other terms not applicable here] is;
"Shed not the blood of your [own Jewish] people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings."
Then in 2:85 the Jew did not comply with what was agreed in the covenant.


The above is the covenant the Jews made with Allah but the point from the above is the various stipulations by Allah are the terms and conditions that the believer must comply.


Similarly whatever is stipulated by Allah in the Quran are all the terms and conditions that all Muslims must comply.
"Ignorance of the Law is no defense"
Therefore it is also the onus of each Muslims to find out what is their full obligations within the covenant they made with Allah.
If they do not read the Quran or do not understand, then they have to seek guidance from the 'men of understanding' to be aware of their full obligation as a Muslims as stated in the Quran.


I have read the Quran extensively and I am aware there are many perhaps up to a 1000++ of terms and conditions beside the good tidings, advice, guidelines, etc. I have not compiled them yet [will do in the future].


There are many obligations from Allah as his promise. Allah promised eternal life in paradise filled with superlative delights for the Muslim. There are many other promises which Allah made, e.g. bring the Muslims from darkness to light. Allah even promise the Muslims support in war and will always win when they go to war, e.g.
33:22. And when the true believers [Muslims] saw the clans, they said: This is that which Allah and His messenger promised us [Muslims]. Allah and His messenger are true. It did but confirm them [true Muslims] in their faith and resignation.
Check out the other verses [up to 90++] in the Quran where Allah has promised the believers and many others where Allah's obligations from the covenant are implied.




Again you are coming up with your own views that 'the covenant is not a mutual agreement.'
First if one is not a Muslims there is no mutuality and the kuffar will be burnt in Hell in the worst possible manner in Hell. One can choose not to enter into an agreement with Allah like all non-Muslims did at present.
But once a person become a Muslims by entering into a covenant with Allah, it is mutual, i.e. Allah will be obliged to do his part and the Muslims has to comply as agreed mutually.
While I do follow my own opinions, I also constantly seek the opinion of those who are more knowledgeable about Islam than mysel.

The Mitha(Covenant with Allaah(swt) is not what you mean by covenant.

his page presents several selected verses from the Quran, which therein mention the Mitha' [Covenant] in which every soul has testified that Allah is their Lord. Acceptance by man of the responsibility to maintain the balance of the universe according to the Will of Allah lifts man to a special status among other creations to be the Representative of Allah on Earth. As a spiritual being endowed with free will man can excel above the angels, yet can fall below the bestial level. Allah has entrusted man with this great responsibility that will require full accountability before Allah on Judgement day. Allah Says:
Islamic-World.net:Khalifah site for Muslims who love Allah and Jihad.

Remember the covenant which Allah discusses that He took from the children of Adam that we would believe in Him?
Qur'an Al A'raf
7:172. And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Verily, we have been unaware of this."
173. Or lest you should say: "It was only our fathers afortime who took others as partners in worship along with Allāh, and we were (merely their) descendants after them; will You then destroy us because of the deeds of men who practised Al-Bātil (i.e. polytheism and committing crimes and sins, invoking and worshipping others besides Allāh)?" (Tafsir At-Tabarī).

Your covenant with Allah 7:712, you've got its favours - so you're accountable for them


Because of cpyright restrictions I am not able to copy an eacerpt from this next link. I have to ask you to read the link itself
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE

The same covenant was made with all people and through all the Prophets(PBUT). Not Muhammad(saws) alone.
That covenant being:

There Never Was A People Without A Warner

Qur'an 35:24
Verily We have sent thee (Muhammad) in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner: and there never was a people without a warner having lived among them (in the past).

Qur'an 16:36
For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle (with the Command) "Serve Allah and eshew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).



Allah's Covenant With Prophets

Qur'an 3:81-82
Behold! Allah took the covenant of the Prophets saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an Apostle confirming what is with you; do ye believe him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree and take this My Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses." If any turn back after this they are perverted transgressors.



No Distinction Between Prophets

Qur'an 3:84-85
Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and in (Books) given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).



A Mercy To The Worlds

Qur'an 21:107
And We did not send you (O Muhammad) except as a Mercy to the worlds.



No Compulsion In Religion

Qur'an 2:256
There is no compulsion in religion.
The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.
And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break.
Allah is Hearer, Knower.


Allah: Allah is the proper name of the One True God, creator and sustainer of the universe, who does not have a partner or associate, and He did not beget nor was He begotten. The word Allah is used by the Arab Christians and Jews for The God (Eloh-im in Hebrew; 'Allaha' in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus, pbuh). The word Allah does not have a plural or gender.

The Last Prophet (Muhammad) And Qur'an In Previously Revealed Scriptures
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While I do follow my own opinions, I also constantly seek the opinion of those who are more knowledgeable about Islam than mysel.

The Mitha(Covenant with Allaah(swt) is not what you mean by covenant.


Islamic-World.net:Khalifah site for Muslims who love Allah and Jihad.


Your covenant with Allah 7:712, you've got its favours - so you're accountable for them


Because of cpyright restrictions I am not able to copy an eacerpt from this next link. I have to ask you to read the link itself
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE

The Last Prophet (Muhammad) And Qur'an In Previously Revealed Scriptures

Woodrow: "The Mitha(Covenant with Allaah(swt) is not what you mean by covenant."


As Muslim I expect you MUST deny my intellectual competency and honesty as above.
I gave very clear examples of how the covenant was made with all prophets and available to all Muslims of the past [before Muhammad] and present.


However the points from the following links are exactly what I meant in the universal intellectual sense [applicable to theological and secular sense] as what a 'covenant' should be.
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE


"people need to fulfill contractual obligations and covenant as agreed in this verse ...Al Israa:34.."


"fulfill the covenant ... ... you have made with Allah .." Annahl:91
The whole article is in line with my principles of what a covenant is and what is a covenant as in the Quran.


While the common phrase is 'Allah's covenant ..' the reality is once a person is a Muslim it is implied s/he has made a covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah.


Those commentators who side-step the essential and universal definition and meaning of a covenant is merely twirling around with words and beating around the bushes.

A covenant [agreement/contract] means it is a mutual agreement as the Muslim still has the 'freewill' to be an apostate. By then the apostate would not give a damn about the threats of Allah since s/he is no more under the ambit of the covenant.


So my earlier points still stands, i.e. the terms and conditions of the covenant a Muslim made with Allah are within the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
Therefore a Muslims must comply with whatever he is obligated within the Quran and Allah has promised he will fulfill the part of his obligation.


As I had said I am very familiar with the Quran by now and whatever I said [in reference to the Quran] is in line with the words of Allah as in the Quran.
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Old 12-28-2015, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow: "The Mitha(Covenant with Allaah(swt) is not what you mean by covenant."


As Muslim I expect you MUST deny my intellectual competency and honesty as above.
I gave very clear examples of how the covenant was made with all prophets and available to all Muslims of the past [before Muhammad] and present.


However the points from the following links are exactly what I meant in the universal intellectual sense [applicable to theological and secular sense] as what a 'covenant' should be.
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE

"people need to fulfill contractual obligations and covenant as agreed in this verse ...Al Israa:34.."


"fulfill the covenant ... ... you have made with Allah .." Annahl:91
The whole article is in line with my principles of what a covenant is and what is a covenant as in the Quran.


While the common phrase is 'Allah's covenant ..' the reality is once a person is a Muslim it is implied s/he has made a covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah.


Those commentators who side-step the essential and universal definition and meaning of a covenant is merely twirling around with words and beating around the bushes.

A covenant [agreement/contract] means it is a mutual agreement as the Muslim still has the 'freewill' to be an apostate. By then the apostate would not give a damn about the threats of Allah since s/he is no more under the ambit of the covenant.


So my earlier points still stands, i.e. the terms and conditions of the covenant a Muslim made with Allah are within the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
Therefore a Muslims must comply with whatever he is obligated within the Quran and Allah has promised he will fulfill the part of his obligation.


As I had said I am very familiar with the Quran by now and whatever I said [in reference to the Quran] is in line with the words of Allah as in the Quran.
Muslims have a Mitha with Allaah(swt) That is what gets translated into covenant by many, probably most translators. If you do not accept that as a covenant, then we do not have a covenant in accordance with the definition you accept.
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Old 12-28-2015, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Muslims have a Mitha with Allaah(swt) That is what gets translated into covenant by many, probably most translators. If you do not accept that as a covenant, then we do not have a covenant in accordance with the definition you accept.
What you called 'Mitha' is a 'covenant' as understood by the Jews and Christians.
If the past prophets of the Jews and Christian accept the term 'covenant' then it must be the same as 'Mitha' as in the Quran.


I have stated, my concept of covenant is the same as used by this link,
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE
The following are the points I have extracted from the above link.

"people need to fulfill contractual obligations and covenant as agreed in this verse ...Al Israa:34.."
"fulfill the covenant ... ... you have made with Allah .." Annahl:91
The above points [abstract] relating to 'covenant' [or Mitha] is the same with my meaning which is a universal meaning. Suggest you reread the article in the link you provided.


Thus the Muslims' Mitha with Allah is the same as the Jews & Christians' Covenant with their God.
The Jews and Christians' covenant is basically a religious agreement with their God.
So covenant [Mitha] with Allah is also a religious agreement with Allah.


Thus my earlier points still stands, i.e. the terms and conditions of the covenant a Muslim made with Allah are within the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
Therefore a Muslims must comply with whatever he is obligated within the Quran and Allah has promised he will fulfill the part of his obligation.
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Old 12-28-2015, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you called 'Mitha' is a 'covenant' as understood by the Jews and Christians.
If the past prophets of the Jews and Christian accept the term 'covenant' then it must be the same as 'Mitha' as in the Quran.


I have stated, my concept of covenant is the same as used by this link,
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE
The following are the points I have extracted from the above link.
"people need to fulfill contractual obligations and covenant as agreed in this verse ...Al Israa:34.."
"fulfill the covenant ... ... you have made with Allah .." Annahl:91
The above points [abstract] relating to 'covenant' [or Mitha] is the same with my meaning which is a universal meaning. Suggest you reread the article in the link you provided.


Thus the Muslims' Mitha with Allah is the same as the Jews & Christians' Covenant with their God.
The Jews and Christians' covenant is basically a religious agreement with their God.
So covenant [Mitha] with Allah is also a religious agreement with Allah.


Thus my earlier points still stands, i.e. the terms and conditions of the covenant a Muslim made with Allah are within the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
Therefore a Muslims must comply with whatever he is obligated within the Quran and Allah has promised he will fulfill the part of his obligation.

In Al-Israa 34 (17:34) the word being translated to covenant is aahd.

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) - 17:34
وَلاَ تَقْرَبُواْ مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلاَّ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَأَوْفُواْ بِالْعَهْدِ إِنَّ الْعَهْدَ كَانَ مَسْؤُولاً (17:34)

Wala taqraboo mala alyateemi illa biallatee hiya ahsanu hatta yablugha ashuddahu waawfoo bialAAahdi inna alAAahda kana masoolan

Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked. - 17:34 (Picktall)

Which is a bit interesting as aahd more accuratly refers to time, era, epoch, engagement. It can also mean a specific event or happening. It can also mean promise. In this particular case what is implied is the promise a man makes to safeguard the wealth of an orphan he has taken into his care.


Although the concept of Time is rather confusing in Mideastern concepts as it differs from the Western concept. Basically there is only now or then, Even the idea of day (youm) is essentially an unspecified period of time. I think that if one sees aahd as referring to "Those times" "That era" " "an epoch event" covenant could be a close approximation in Western thought.

Although I have a very hard time reconciling how Pickthall and others chose to use covenant as a translation for aahd

Although Asad and Ali do not seem to have followed Pickthalls error

And do not touch the substance of an orphan, save to improve it, before he comes of age. [42] And be true to every promise - for, verily, [on Judgment Day] you will be called to account for every promise which you have made ! [43] - 17:34 (Asad)

Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). - 17:34 (Y. Ali)
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Old 12-28-2015, 03:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In Al-Israa 34 (17:34) the word being translated to covenant is aahd.

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) - 17:34
وَلاَ تَقْرَبُواْ مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلاَّ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَأَوْفُواْ بِالْعَهْدِ إِنَّ الْعَهْدَ كَانَ مَسْؤُولاً (17:34)

Wala taqraboo mala alyateemi illa biallatee hiya ahsanu hatta yablugha ashuddahu waawfoo bialAAahdi inna alAAahda kana masoolan

Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked. - 17:34 (Picktall)

Which is a bit interesting as aahd more accuratly refers to time, era, epoch, engagement. It can also mean a specific event or happening. It can also mean promise. In this particular case what is implied is the promise a man makes to safeguard the wealth of an orphan he has taken into his care.


Although the concept of Time is rather confusing in Mideastern concepts as it differs from the Western concept. Basically there is only now or then, Even the idea of day (youm) is essentially an unspecified period of time. I think that if one sees aahd as referring to "Those times" "That era" " "an epoch event" covenant could be a close approximation in Western thought.

Although I have a very hard time reconciling how Pickthall and others chose to use covenant as a translation for aahd

Although Asad and Ali do not seem to have followed Pickthalls error

And do not touch the substance of an orphan, save to improve it, before he comes of age. [42] And be true to every promise - for, verily, [on Judgment Day] you will be called to account for every promise which you have made ! [43] - 17:34 (Asad)

Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). - 17:34 (Y. Ali)
As I have mentioned, I am very familiar with the Quran after putting a lot of time [full time basis] on it.


My understanding of the term 'covenant' is based on the whole context of the Quran, Islam, Abrahamic religions, religions and the whole of reality.


Pickthall did not commit an error at all in using the term essential term 'covenant'.
Assad's and Ali's "every promise' allude to a covenant which supposedly contain 'every promise' from both parties.
Therefore when Pickthall used the term 'covenant' it will cover 'every promise.'
So there is no issue at all.


Note I did a survey of the various 40++ English translations of 17:34, most of the translators used the term 'covenant' while some use 'promise,' contract, agreement, pledges, pacts, commitments, and others.


Whenever the term promise, oaths, as agreed, obligation, expectations, Allah's commands, Muslims duty, etc. are used in the Quran, they are the various partial elements of the overall concept of the covenant a Muslim has made with Allah.


The term 'covenant' [related to theology] is most apt to be used in the Abrahamic contexts.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-28-2015 at 03:43 AM..
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Old 12-28-2015, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I have mentioned, I am very familiar with the Quran after putting a lot of time [full time basis] on it.


My understanding of the term 'covenant' is based on the whole context of the Quran, Islam, Abrahamic religions, religions and the whole of reality.


Pickthall did not commit an error at all in using the term essential term 'covenant'.
Assad's and Ali's "every promise' allude to a covenant which supposedly contain 'every promise' from both parties.
Therefore when Pickthall used the term 'covenant' it will cover 'every promise.'
So there is no issue at all.


Note I did a survey of the various 40++ English translations of 17:34, most of the translators used the term 'covenant' while some use 'promise,' contract, agreement, pledges, pacts, commitments, and others.


Whenever the term promise, oaths, as agreed, obligation, expectations, Allah's commands, Muslims duty, etc. are used in the Quran, they are the various partial elements of the overall concept of the covenant a Muslim has made with Allah.


The term 'covenant' [related to theology] is most apt to be used in the Abrahamic contexts.
However the only promise ALL Muslims make to Allaah(swt) is that we "Worship only Allaah(swt), and that is all Allaah(swt) required of us.
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Old 12-29-2015, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However the only promise ALL Muslims make to Allaah(swt) is that we "Worship only Allaah(swt), and that is all Allaah(swt) required of us.
As expected the effect of "Mcquire's Inoculation theory" compelled you [subminally] to come up with narrow and twisted views.


The Quran stipulated the concept of the covenant very clearly.
As with the link you provided, the concept of covenant is the same as what is a contract, agreements, and the likes in the conventional sense.
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE
I am sure most Islamic commentators will agree with the above.
I mentioned this in the OP;
The Quran speaks of a covenant with God, who in Arabic is referred to as Allah.
As Islam scholar Robert Darnell Jr. observes, the Quran describes a covenant with God as having three general features:
1. the remembrance of God's favor,
2. a promise of reward, and
3. commandments to be followed.
In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah? | People - Opposing Views
Thus what comprised the 'only promise' of "all Allah required of us" entails is that of a covenant [agreement] made between a Muslim and Allah.

Therefore within the covenant a Muslim made with Allah, a Muslim must comply with "all Allah required of us" [your words] as in the Quran -the sole words of Allah - [MGA-610AD] and no where else.

If Allah in the Quran require a Muslim to migrate [hijrah] to foreign land to assist Muslims in need [oppressed] and fight the kuffar, then a Muslim is very obliged to do that, else s/he will be branded a coward.


Your personal and very narrow view of what is a covenant will not stand up to the original words of Allah as per the Quran.
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Old 12-29-2015, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As expected the effect of "Mcquire's Inoculation theory" compelled you [subminally] to come up with narrow and twisted views.


The Quran stipulated the concept of the covenant very clearly.
As with the link you provided, the concept of covenant is the same as what is a contract, agreements, and the likes in the conventional sense.
General Authority of Islamic Affairs And Endowments - UAE
I am sure most Islamic commentators will agree with the above.
I mentioned this in the OP;
The Quran speaks of a covenant with God, who in Arabic is referred to as Allah.
As Islam scholar Robert Darnell Jr. observes, the Quran describes a covenant with God as having three general features:
1. the remembrance of God's favor,
2. a promise of reward, and
3. commandments to be followed.
In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah? | People - Opposing Views
Thus what comprised the 'only promise' of "all Allah required of us" entails is that of a covenant [agreement] made between a Muslim and Allah.

Therefore within the covenant a Muslim made with Allah, a Muslim must comply with "all Allah required of us" [your words] as in the Quran -the sole words of Allah - [MGA-610AD] and no where else.

If Allah in the Quran require a Muslim to migrate [hijrah] to foreign land to assist Muslims in need [oppressed] and fight the kuffar, then a Muslim is very obliged to do that, else s/he will be branded a coward.


Your personal and very narrow view of what is a covenant will not stand up to the original words of Allah as per the Quran.
I contend I am understanding quite well what the Arabic says, although it is contrary to many English translations. I am very much aware there is much difference between the understanding of the Arabic and the meanings of English translations.

I will place my trust in what I believe the Arabic says over what I read the translations as meaning.
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