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Old 01-24-2016, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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19:78. [Pickthall] Hath he [the infidel] perused the Unseen, or hath he made a pact [covenant] with the Beneficent?


AttalaAAa alghayba ami ittakhatha AAinda alrrahmani AAahdan


19:78 [Assad] Has he, perchance, attained to a realm which is beyond the reach of a created being's perception? or has he concluded a covenant with the Most Gracious?


19:78 [Ali] Has he penetrated to the Unseen, or has he taken a contract with (Allah) Most Gracious?


19:78 [Sarwar] Has he the knowledge of the unseen or has the Beneficent God established such a binding agreement with Him?
The above is one verse which imply a Muslim must enter into a covenant [pact, agreement, contract] with Allah so that one can reap the promises made by Allah.
Note the various terms used to represent what is rightly a 'covenant' for theological purposes.


What is surprising is most Muslims do not understand the essential elements of the implied need for a covenant with Allah.
The point is if there is no covenant [explicit or implicit] a Muslim cannot reap whatever is promised by Allah.
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Old 02-17-2016, 04:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To qualify as being a Muslim-proper, a Muslim must enter into a covenant with Allah either explicitly or implicitly.
(Note to claim 'All are born Muslim' is a terrible insult to other non-Muslims and such a debasing myth should be ignored.)
To qualify as being a Muslim and "in Islam", one must be in "submission". This means s/he must obey Allah/God to qualify for the favours of Allah. Therefore obeying Allah is in man's own self interest.

The point made here about "all are born Muslims" is nothing but ignorace about both the Arabic words "islam" and "muslim". As the term of the covenant for one side is to obey God/Allah. A baby is born obeying God. A baby cannot come into existence, just as Adam could not come into exisrence, by himself unless God Wills, the baby is obeying God when coming into existence. It is not very hard to understand this fact unless you close your mind to his fact.

All are born Muslims must be understood as obeying God/Allah rather than "Muhammadans". The word "Muslim" is hated so much now due to the politicians radicalizing the dummy-like non-muslims masses that they now feel insult being regarded muslim even only at birth.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
To qualify as being a Muslim and "in Islam", one must be in "submission". This means s/he must obey Allah/God to qualify for the favours of Allah. Therefore obeying Allah is in man's own self interest.
My point is before a Muslim "submit" to Allah, the person must first enter into a covenant or agreement, implied or otherwise with Allah.


Therefore the covenant must precede the act of "submission" and whatever is necessary for one to be a Muslim in accordance to the provision in the Quran.


Once the covenant [explicit or implicit] is in place, then only the Muslim can "worship" Allah.
Note I wrote this point on what 'worship' entails in 51:56.
"the 'worship' in 51:56 would cover all the imperative actions and thoughts a Muslims must direct toward Allah, which include, submit, believe, obey, serve, rituals, etc."
You only mentioned "obeying" in the above, but worship comprised more than obeying.


Quote:
The point made here about "all are born Muslims" is nothing but ignorace about both the Arabic words "islam" and "muslim". As the term of the covenant for one side is to obey God/Allah. A baby is born obeying God. A baby cannot come into existence, just as Adam could not come into exisrence, by himself unless God Wills, the baby is obeying God when coming into existence. It is not very hard to understand this fact unless you close your mind to his fact.
In the perspective of reality and humanity, I DO NOT agree with your above "all are born Muslims." This is an insult to my existence. I AM NOT BORN A MUSLIM. As I have argued Islam is inherently both good and evil [note my duck-rabbit illustration]. There is no way I want to be associated as born as a Muslim especially when Islam is in part evil.
This is where Islam is unilaterally provocative towards non-Muslims for no good human reasons at all.

I do not agree with it, but I understand Islam claimed "all are born Muslims."
Even if from the Islam point of view [which I do not agree] a baby is born obeying Allah, there is a potential for babies who later became adult to go astray.
This is why a subsequent covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah is necessary for one to be an official Muslim.
Note in some cases Allah can reject any human to become a Muslim as many had became astray or Allah has deliberately led them astray and punish and kill them to eternal death in Hell for some reasons.


So my point is a covenant, explicit or implicit must precede "submission" by a Muslim.




Btw, Allah stated in the Quran, 'submission' is inferior to 'believe'
Note this thread of mine where I explain the above;
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?

I suggest you review the many threads I have raised on Islam to get an idea of how much I know of Islam. Where I am not sure, I have raised Questions and Woodrow LI [an exemplar poster] had been very helpful.


Quote:
All are born Muslims must be understood as obeying God/Allah rather than "Muhammadans". The word "Muslim" is hated so much now due to the politicians radicalizing the dummy-like non-muslims masses that they now feel insult being regarded muslim even only at birth.
I disagree ALL are born Muslims. In reality this chauvinistic and arrogant claim is ridiculous.


You are in denial of the truths in reality.


The word "Muslim" as present is read and heard with contempt by non-Muslims because of the REAL and actual terrible evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are influenced and inspired by a significant portion of evil laden verses in the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad as an exemplar.


You should ask yourself why it is only the word "Muslim" and "Islam" that is felt with contempt by the majority of non-Muslim around the world and not with Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Taoism, Bahai, plus not so much of Christianity, Judaism, etc.
You must ask yourself objectively 'Why only the words "Muslims" and "Islam" that conjure contempt and terror and not Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.


One of the solid evidence is this [27,828 incidents with fatalities] amongst many other types of evils.







Frankly I would not blame "Muslims," at all i.e. the 20% evil prone Muslims, because they as a natural percentile are born with an inborn and natural evil tendency.
What trigger these natural humans with evil tendency are the evil laden elements in the holy texts.


Btw, you are obviously wrong in blaming the politicians.
Note Bush, Obama, Cameron, Merkel, Dalai Lama and all the world leaders has been proclaiming Islam as a religion of peace and it is only some extremists who are at fault.
I am sure these politicians has never the read the whole Quran even once. If they read the Quran 10 times [preferably > 50 times], they will agree with my views on Islam.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point is before a Muslim "submit" to Allah, the person must first enter into a covenant or agreement, implied or otherwise with Allah.


Therefore the covenant must precede the act of "submission" and whatever is necessary for one to be a Muslim in accordance to the provision in the Quran.


Once the covenant [explicit or implicit] is in place, then only the Muslim can "worship" Allah.
Note I wrote this point on what 'worship' entails in 51:56.
"the 'worship' in 51:56 would cover all the imperative actions and thoughts a Muslims must direct toward Allah, which include, submit, believe, obey, serve, rituals, etc."
You only mentioned "obeying" in the above, but worship comprised more than obeying.


In the perspective of reality and humanity, I DO NOT agree with your above "all are born Muslims." This is an insult to my existence. I AM NOT BORN A MUSLIM. As I have argued Islam is inherently both good and evil [note my duck-rabbit illustration]. There is no way I want to be associated as born as a Muslim especially when Islam is in part evil.
This is where Islam is unilaterally provocative towards non-Muslims for no good human reasons at all.

I do not agree with it, but I understand Islam claimed "all are born Muslims."
Even if from the Islam point of view [which I do not agree] a baby is born obeying Allah, there is a potential for babies who later became adult to go astray.
This is why a subsequent covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah is necessary for one to be an official Muslim.
Note in some cases Allah can reject any human to become a Muslim as many had became astray or Allah has deliberately led them astray and punish and kill them to eternal death in Hell for some reasons.


So my point is a covenant, explicit or implicit must precede "submission" by a Muslim.
Circumcision is the sign of covenant. It preceds adult's submission.

Baby's birth is also baby's submission to the will of Allah in terms of being born. This submission precedes the adult's covenant. In Islam, the Qur'an is the Covnant. Agreeing to the terms in the Qur'an is agreeing to the Covenant and complying with its terms by us is submission.

Last edited by Khalif; 02-18-2016 at 02:44 AM.. Reason: Grammar
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Circumcision is the sign of covenant. It is preceds adult's submission.

Baby's birth is also baby's submission to the will of Allah in terms of being born. This submission precedes the adult's covenant. In Islam, the Qur'an is the Covnant. Agreeing to the terms in the Qur'an is agreeing to the Covenant and complying with its terms by us is submission.
This seem to be controversial.


Objectively, since circumcision is not stated in the Quran, it cannot be a Quranic rule.
If you insist 'All are born Muslims' millions of humans were not subjected to circumcision, therefore it contradict they are Muslims in adulthood.


The rationale is the covenant must precede 'submission.'
I suggest you research into the principles of "Implied Contracts" as in Law 101.


Circumcision is merely for supposedly for health purposes and a preferred choice for Muslims but there is no sin in the Quran if one is not circumcised.


I think 'believe' [49:14-15 -believe greater than submission] is more appropriate in relation to compliance with the terms and conditions with the covenant in the Quran.
This has reference to 'men of understanding' who has greater understanding of the Quran than the majority and thus able to exercise greater compliance than the ordinary folks.
2:269. He giveth wisdom unto whom He will, and he [Muslim] unto whom wisdom is given, he truly hath received abundant good But none remember except men of understanding.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:57 AM
 
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Continuum,

A baby's birth is regarded as Will of God in Islam. It is for this reason that a baby is born a Muslim. This certainly does not mean that the baby is Muhammadan (as you think for "Muslim"). When the baby becomes old enough to tell the difference between right and wrong, s/he becomes either non-muslim or complies with the commands in the Qur'an and stays as a Muslim. There is no concept in Islam, once a Muslim always a Muslim. A Muslim is a Muslim only by his/her actions.
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Old 02-18-2016, 03:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I think 'believe' [49:14-15 -believe greater than submission] is more appropriate in relation to compliance with the terms and conditions with the covenant in the Quran.
Believing comes first and then submission. Submission in terms of ritual only is hypocrisy without believing. Believing makes one Momin (Believer) and Submission makes the Believer a Muslim.
Believing is expressed through honest Submission but mere outward submission does not prove believing.

The Qur'an addresses the initial followers of Muhammad as "Believers" rather than "Muslims". They became "Muslims"-after "obeying"/"submitting :as is done in Submission. Therefore believing is the first step and submissoion must follow it or believing is not there..Just by standing in a row with others to pray is not submission but to stand there for praying believing that you are actually praying/worshipping God is submission.
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This seem to be controversial.


Objectively, since circumcision is not stated in the Quran, it cannot be a Quranic rule.
If you insist 'All are born Muslims' millions of humans were not subjected to circumcision, therefore it contradict they are Muslims in adulthood.


The rationale is the covenant must precede 'submission.'
I suggest you research into the principles of "Implied Contracts" as in Law 101.


Circumcision is merely for supposedly for health purposes and a preferred choice for Muslims but there is no sin in the Quran if one is not circumcised.


I think 'believe' [49:14-15 -believe greater than submission] is more appropriate in relation to compliance with the terms and conditions with the covenant in the Quran.
This has reference to 'men of understanding' who has greater understanding of the Quran than the majority and thus able to exercise greater compliance than the ordinary folks.
2:269. He giveth wisdom unto whom He will, and he [Muslim] unto whom wisdom is given, he truly hath received abundant good But none remember except men of understanding.
I think you will find that the vast majority of people that call them self Muslim do not meet your definition of Muslim and do not follow what you think Islam is.
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Old 02-18-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Believing comes first and then submission. Submission in terms of ritual only is hypocrisy without believing. Believing makes one Momin (Believer) and Submission makes the Believer a Muslim.
Believing is expressed through honest Submission but mere outward submission does not prove believing.
There is a difference between submission and believing but it is very subtle. It would seem first one must believe first then submit but the following verses 49;14-15 do not indicate so.


Normally a person will submit or surrender one will to another like a slave to his master.
In the case of a disciple and teacher, the disciple also submit/surrender first then believe when the student personally understand the true capability of the teacher.


So generally 'submission' comes firsts then 'believing'.
This point is reflected in the following verse 49:14

49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Why do Allah said to the wandering Arabs they do not believe [yet] but merely 'submit'.
Elsewhere the concept of 'believing' in reserve for the more competent Muslims, e.g. the men of understanding.


How can you counter Allah's words above?





Quote:
The Qur'an addresses the initial followers of Muhammad as "Believers" rather than "Muslims". They became "Muslims"-after "obeying"/"submitting :as is done in Submission. Therefore believing is the first step and submission must follow it or believing is not there..Just by standing in a row with others to pray is not submission but to stand there for praying believing that you are actually praying/worshipping God is submission.
Note verse 49:14 above where it implied 'submit' is the initial step then 'believing' which is reflected in 49:15,

49:15. The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere.
The above implied after submitting, the Muslim become a believer progressively till the higher levels where a true believer will strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. This is where the motivation for the suicide bombers and other jihadists arise to inspire them to do what Allah dictated in the Quran.
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Old 02-18-2016, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think you will find that the vast majority of people that call them self Muslim do not meet your definition of Muslim and do not follow what you think Islam is.
By default all Muslims believe on a very primal emotional basis, i.e. that is why it is called faith [belief without proofs or reasons].

When a person believe in anything based on faith, i.e. belief without proofs or reason, there is a very great potential for errors and falsehoods.
When it is based on faith, the person could not careless for the truths as long as what s/he believe help to soothe the inherent subliminal psychological pains.

Therefore the vast majority of people who called themselves Muslims may not be truer Muslims in accordance to the Quran and words of Allah. They rely on secondary sources from various sects and scholars who has interpreted the Quran [words of Allah] less accurately. These majority has very strong emotional attachments to their beliefs which may be very right in accordance to the Quran.

Thus majority believing on one thing do not imply they are following the truths. E.g. in the past the majority believed the Earth was flat and the Sun travel across the Earth literally. Then Science discovered the real truths and the majority [based on common sense then] were wrong.

What I have assessed of Islam and Muslims are based on the truths of human nature, thus is objective. Can you show me where I am wrong in my interpretations?

You will note Khalif [as a minority Muslim] agreed with my views as far as the claim that Islam is solely represented by the Quran [Allah's word] and nothing else [Ahadith, Sira, etc.]. This point is very objective.
The majority of Muslims who believe the Sunnah [Ahadith] is Islamic and has authorized divine power are wrong in this aspect.
In this regard I believe Khalif [I don't agree in other aspects of Islam] is a truer Muslims than the majority of Muslims in the aspect of regarding the Quran as the only authorized source of Islam.
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