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Old 02-19-2016, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
By default all Muslims believe on a very primal emotional basis, i.e. that is why it is called faith [belief without proofs or reasons].

When a person believe in anything based on faith, i.e. belief without proofs or reason, there is a very great potential for errors and falsehoods.
When it is based on faith, the person could not careless for the truths as long as what s/he believe help to soothe the inherent subliminal psychological pains.

Therefore the vast majority of people who called themselves Muslims may not be truer Muslims in accordance to the Quran and words of Allah. They rely on secondary sources from various sects and scholars who has interpreted the Quran [words of Allah] less accurately. These majority has very strong emotional attachments to their beliefs which may be very right in accordance to the Quran.

Thus majority believing on one thing do not imply they are following the truths. E.g. in the past the majority believed the Earth was flat and the Sun travel across the Earth literally. Then Science discovered the real truths and the majority [based on common sense then] were wrong.

What I have assessed of Islam and Muslims are based on the truths of human nature, thus is objective. Can you show me where I am wrong in my interpretations?

You will note Khalif [as a minority Muslim] agreed with my views as far as the claim that Islam is solely represented by the Quran [Allah's word] and nothing else [Ahadith, Sira, etc.]. This point is very objective.
The majority of Muslims who believe the Sunnah [Ahadith] is Islamic and has authorized divine power are wrong in this aspect.
In this regard I believe Khalif [I don't agree in other aspects of Islam] is a truer Muslims than the majority of Muslims in the aspect of regarding the Quran as the only authorized source of Islam.
I think you will find that Khalif and myself would never claim either was "More Muslim" or a "better Muslim" and place all Muslims as equals in the Ummah even if we disagree on some issues. We are not in a race or contest and not in competition with each other.
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think you will find that Khalif and myself would never claim either was "More Muslim" or a "better Muslim" and place all Muslims as equals in the Ummah even if we disagree on some issues. We are not in a race or contest and not in competition with each other.
If you rely on the Ahadith as an authority of Islam, I believe Khalif will claim you have deviated from the central purpose/theme of Islam.


I am not sure of Khalif's view on this; but I believe, objectively a Muslim who do not accept the Ahadith as an authority of Islam is a truer Muslim [closer as intended in the Quran] than the one who rely on the Ahadith.


Regardless, what matter for Muslims is how they will be judged on Judgment Day on how close they have comply with the words of Allah in the Quran in accordance to the terms and conditions of the covenant.


Those who deviated from Allah's words [depending the degrees] will face some sort of punishments or have their passage to Paradise delayed [tarried] in suspension and will be accorded lesser rewards finally.


Note these verses [amongst many] where Allah denounced those who divided the religion into various sects and become divisive.

30:32. Of those who split up their religion [deenahum] and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets.


3:103. And [O ye Muslims] hold fast, all of you [Muslims] together, to the cable of Allah, and do not separate.
And remember Allah's favour unto you: how ye [Muslims] were enemies and He made friendship between your hearts so that ye [Muslims] became as brothers [brotherhood] by His grace; and (how) ye [Muslims] were upon the brink of an abyss of fire, and He did save you from it. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations unto you, that haply ye [Muslims] may be guided,
If all Muslims were to stick to the Quran-ONLY as intended, there would be no divisive contrasting sects such as Sunni, Shia, Sufi, etc.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-19-2016 at 12:58 AM..
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Old 02-19-2016, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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9:111. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers [Muslims] their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they [Muslims] shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain.
It is a promise which is binding on Him [Allah] in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an.
Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye [Muslims] have made, for that is the supreme triumph.


Here is another aspect of the covenant a Muslim enter into with Allah.
Basically the obligation of the Muslim is to 'worship' Allah, i.e. submit, believe, obey, serve, etc.


The other aspect is Muslims [imply all qualified] must also sell their lives and wealth to Allah and to fight in the way of Allah and be ready to slay and be slain in exchange for their passage to the Garden.


The above is the motivation and inspiration that trigger suicide bombers and jihadists to fight in the way of Allah and to slay and be slain at any time where there is a threat and hindrance against Islam and Muslims.


The question is what will happen to Muslims who do nothing to achieve the supreme triumph in accordance to 9:111 if there is a threat to Islam and Muslims at the present?
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Old 02-19-2016, 01:33 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think you will find that Khalif and myself would never claim either was "More Muslim" or a "better Muslim" and place all Muslims as equals in the Ummah even if we disagree on some issues. We are not in a race or contest and not in competition with each other.
I agree with that in full. I never call myself Sunni, Shia or anything else but just Muslim. They were all Muslims during the days of the prophet and even his own view was that all with him were Muslims rather than Sunni or Shia. Divisions into sects is a later occurrence than commanded in Islam.

There are several verses in the Qur'an that effectively forbid us to be part of a sect and be divided. The current punishment for Muslims is for being divided into various sects. People got divided into sects once they added into their Islam something for which Allah had given no authority through the Qur'an.
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Old 02-19-2016, 02:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you rely on the Ahadith as an authority of Islam, I believe Khalif will claim you have deviated from the central purpose/theme of Islam.
Adding something in your religion is not the same as "having deviated". For example, Islam is obeying Allah, serving Allah, worshipping Allah only. But it is commanded by Allah in the Qur'an to "obey Allah and His messenger". The latter is still obeying, serving, worshipping Allah only and not obeying, serving, worshipping Muhammad also. "Obeying Allah and His messenger" is done by obeying any command in the "message" that is from Allah and is delivered by His messenger. Therefore when we obey any command in the mesage, we are obeying both Allah and His mesenger collectively and complying as commanded. But on the other hand, if any command from Muhammad is not from him in capacity of "messenger"but from himself as a man (abd) then it is not fardh (compulsory) to obey it. Obey Muhammad is a later addition. Muhammad had commanded his adopted son Zaid not to divorce his then wife (Zainab) but Zaid did divorce his wife. Islamically it was not fardh for Zaid to obey Muhammad but if it had been a command from Allah and it was delivered by Muhammad in his capacity as "His messenger" then Zaid had to obey the command as a Muslim. In such a case it would have been obeying both Allah and His messenger.

Addition, therefore, is different from deviation. It would be deviation if the Qur'an is replaced with ahadith.
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Old 02-19-2016, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Adding something in your religion is not the same as "having deviated". For example, Islam is obeying Allah, serving Allah, worshipping Allah only. But it is commanded by Allah in the Qur'an to "obey Allah and His messenger". The latter is still obeying, serving, worshipping Allah only and not obeying, serving, worshipping Muhammad also. "Obeying Allah and His messenger" is done by obeying any command in the "message" that is from Allah and is delivered by His messenger. Therefore when we obey any command in the mesage, we are obeying both Allah and His mesenger collectively and complying as commanded. But on the other hand, if any command from Muhammad is not from him in capacity of "messenger"but from himself as a man (abd) then it is not fardh (compulsory) to obey it. Obey Muhammad is a later addition. Muhammad had commanded his adopted son Zaid not to divorce his then wife (Zainab) but Zaid did divorce his wife. Islamically it was not fardh for Zaid to obey Muhammad but if it had been a command from Allah and it was delivered by Muhammad in his capacity as "His messenger" then Zaid had to obey the command as a Muslim. In such a case it would have been obeying both Allah and His messenger.

Addition, therefore, is different from deviation. It would be deviation if the Qur'an is replaced with ahadith.
This is a matter of semantics.
Deviated | Define Deviated at Dictionary.com
There are a variation of meaning for 'deviated' depending on how define the context.


In this case, "deviated" mean different from what was originally intended in the Quran.


The degree of deviation can very from low to serious.
A serious deviation would be an unpardonable sin such as assigning partners or sons to Allah.


Re Zaid's situation I have my own assessment from the moral point of view. I mentioned this point in another post and don't intent to argue it here.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a matter of semantics.
Deviated | Define Deviated at Dictionary.com
There are a variation of meaning for 'deviated' depending on how define the context.


In this case, "deviated" mean different from what was originally intended in the Quran.


The degree of deviation can very from low to serious.
A serious deviation would be an unpardonable sin such as assigning partners or sons to Allah.
Then there is no deviation but only addition as what is intended by the Qur'an in 2:190-193 is still there and a vast majority of Muslims are sticking to it. Those who have added their own interpretation are failing to understand the verses.

Quote:
Re Zaid's situation I have my own assessment from the moral point of view. I mentioned this point in another post and don't intent to argue it here.
Did Zaid deviate from the command in the Qur'an, "obey Allah and His mesenger"?
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:49 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
9:111. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers [Muslims] their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they [Muslims] shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain.
It is a promise which is binding on Him [Allah] in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an.
Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye [Muslims] have made, for that is the supreme triumph.


Here is another aspect of the covenant a Muslim enter into with Allah.
Basically the obligation of the Muslim is to 'worship' Allah, i.e. submit, believe, obey, serve, etc.
Basically the obligation of a believer (Momin) is to "serve" God, by obeying God. This action is also known as worshipping God. Muslim is someone who is actually complying with the obligations of a Momin.

Quote:
The other aspect is Muslims [imply all qualified] must also sell their lives and wealth to Allah and to fight in the way of Allah and be ready to slay and be slain in exchange for their passage to the Garden.
You will have to tell us whether this is obligation regardless of the circumstances or these are obligations of a Muslim in only in certain situations explained in the Qur'an?

Quote:
The above is the motivation and inspiration that trigger suicide bombers and jihadists to fight in the way of Allah and to slay and be slain at any time where there is a threat and hindrance against Islam and Muslims.
No. There motivation does not come from these words but from their misinterpretation of these words. The misinterpretation is because of their ignorance of the message of the Qur'an. In other words, it is not thr fault of the Qur'an but the fault of the deaf, dumb and blind who do not understand.

Quote:
The question is what will happen to Muslims who do nothing to achieve the supreme triumph in accordance to 9:111 if there is a threat to Islam and Muslims at the present?
What kind of threat are you referring to here?
To be able to answer this question, you will have to go back to the situation in which this verse was revealed.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you rely on the Ahadith as an authority of Islam, I believe Khalif will claim you have deviated from the central purpose/theme of Islam.
I won't claim that these people have "deviated" from the central requirement of Islam (obey Allah) but added "obey Muhammad" thinking that there is no difference in obeying Allah's messenger and obeying Muhammad.

Ahadith books were written without any authoriy from Allah or the Messenger at least 200 years after the Qur'an was revealed and written. The original idea was to explain the Qur'an the same way as the Jews had explained the Torah through writing of the Talmud. In some cases, ahadith books are not explanation of the Qur'an but deviation from the Qur'an. In some other cases, ahadith contradict each other. Many ahadith make no sense at all and others do not even comply with the teachingcs in the Qur'an. I have no doubt that only the Qur'an is Allah's Way.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:29 AM
 
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Muslims' covenant with Allah began with the covenant of Abraham with Allah. Circumcision of male members is the sign of such covenant. It was signed and sealed not with ink but with blood of Abraham, Ishmael and the male members of the house.
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