U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-19-2016, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I won't claim that these people have "deviated" from the central requirement of Islam (obey Allah) but added "obey Muhammad" thinking that there is no difference in obeying Allah's messenger and obeying Muhammad.

Ahadith books were written without any authoriy from Allah or the Messenger at least 200 years after the Qur'an was revealed and written. The original idea was to explain the Qur'an the same way as the Jews had explained the Torah through writing of the Talmud. In some cases, ahadith books are not explanation of the Qur'an but deviation from the Qur'an. In some other cases, ahadith contradict each other. Many ahadith make no sense at all and others do not even comply with the teachingcs in the Qur'an. I have no doubt that only the Qur'an is Allah's Way.
While I do not disagree with that, I do feel there is value in the Ahadith.

However, I do not believe the Ahadith should be accessible to all people and should be read only by those who have completed at least a basic level of studies in the "Science of Hadith".

The Ahadith are tools to understanding not commands. Also the vast majority of Ahadith have very low levels of reliability and Authenticity. Ahadith are tools for understanding, not directives for establishing dogma or doctrine. Care must be taken when one studies Ahadith and it should be with the tutelage of reliable, recognized scholars.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-19-2016, 11:14 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While I do not disagree with that, I do feel there is value in the Ahadith.
I too believe that we can learn something from the ahadith books but I also think that unless someone is familiar ith the teachings of the Qur'an some parts of the ahadith books will give completely wrong impression of Islam. For this reason, the Qur'an must be studied first if we are not to deviate from the true teachings in Islam.

Quote:
However, I do not believe the Ahadith should be accessible to all people and should be read only by those who have completed at least a basic level of studies in the "Science of Hadith".
"Science of Hadith" is human creation and their are flaws in it. How does anyone know that the person saying that the last person in the chain was reliable was himself reliable?

Quote:
The Ahadith are tools to understanding not commands. Also the vast majority of Ahadith have very low levels of reliability and Authenticity. Ahadith are tools for understanding, not directives for establishing dogma or doctrine. Care must be taken when one studies Ahadith and it should be with the tutelage of reliable, recognized scholars.
Are there any recognize scholars today that will say that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim too are not 100% reliable and authentic in every way?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I too believe that we can learn something from the ahadith books but I also think that unless someone is familiar ith the teachings of the Qur'an some parts of the ahadith books will give completely wrong impression of Islam. For this reason, the Qur'an must be studied first if we are not to deviate from the true teachings in Islam.

"Science of Hadith" is human creation and their are flaws in it. How does anyone know that the person saying that the last person in the chain was reliable was himself reliable?



Are there any recognize scholars today that will say that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim too are not 100% reliable and authentic in every way?
There are scholars that will explain what is actually meant by Authenticity and reliability. They will acknowledge that while the Sahih Ahadith have the highest levels of Authenticity and reliability there is no guarantee they are true. All Ahadith are the work of man and therefore carry the possibility of error.


Quote:
1. The Prophet May Have Been Misquoted

Consider the hadith found in Sahih Bukhari from multiple transmitters that places the following words in the mouth of the Prophet:

“Bad luck can be found in houses, women, and horses.” (Sahih Bukhari)

It seems that the hadith was controversial even at the time of the Companions, for we have a report attributed to Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her:

Two men from Banu Aamir came to Aisha and told her that Abu Huraira narrates that the Prophet said: ‘Bad omen is in a house, a woman and a horse.’ She was enraged, full of anger and said; ‘By the One who revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad, Allah’s Messenger did not say that; what he actually said was that in the days of ignorance, people used to take bad omen in these things.’ (Musnad Ahmad)

Many scholars also believe this account to be sahih and conclude from this report that, if Aisha is correct, these transmitters only heard part of the Prophet’s statement, and not the whole thing, and consequently turned the hadith on its head! A reader of hadiths would do well to keep in mind that even if its narrators are well-intentioned, a hadith that reaches us may not perfectly capture the words of the Prophet, as distortions may arise through accidents of hearing or through the imperfect memories of its all-too-human narrators.

https://medium.com/@FrameOfMind/but-...c5b#.4j06pusey
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then there is no deviation but only addition as what is intended by the Qur'an in 2:190-193 is still there and a vast majority of Muslims are sticking to it. Those who have added their own interpretation are failing to understand the verses.


Did Zaid deviate from the command in the Qur'an, "obey Allah and His mesenger"?
Per the dictionary, addition to the texts is also in a sense a 'deviation'.


Zaid did not deviate from Allah's command in the Quran.


My argument is the Quran was authored by Muhammad himself and he created Chapter-33 [Medina] for his personal interests.


There is no where that Muhammad ordered Zaid not to divorce his wife in the Quran.
If that is from other sources, the reliability of it is questionable.
This Chapter 33 is what others called a Just-in-Time revelation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Basically the obligation of a believer (Momin) is to "serve" God, by obeying God. This action is also known as worshipping God. Muslim is someone who is actually complying with the obligations of a Momin.

You will have to tell us whether this is obligation regardless of the circumstances or these are obligations of a Muslim in only in certain situations explained in the Qur'an?
This obligation is conditioned upon certain situations as mentioned in the Quran.
But the problem the definition of these 'certain situations' are vague and ambiguous that influenced and inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

Quote:
No. There motivation does not come from these words but from their misinterpretation of these words. The misinterpretation is because of their ignorance of the message of the Qur'an. In other words, it is not thr fault of the Qur'an but the fault of the deaf, dumb and blind who do not understand.
My question is WHO ARE YOU [me or others] to judge they have misinterpreted those words.
The final judgment is solely from Allah not you and others.

Quote:
What kind of threat are you referring to here?
To be able to answer this question, you will have to go back to the situation in which this verse was revealed.
I have already mentioned this many times.
It is the threat to the religion of Islam and the hindrance of its progress.


Threats and hindrance to the progress of Islam around the world are as follows;
1. where foreigners are present politically in Islamic land,
2. Western Education is being promoted to Muslims,
3. Christians are proselytizing to Muslims,
4. Drawing of cartoons of Muhammad,
5. Desecration, Burning of Quran,
6. The very existence of Jews
7. Many others, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Muslims' covenant with Allah began with the covenant of Abraham with Allah. Circumcision of male members is the sign of such covenant. It was signed and sealed not with ink but with blood of Abraham, Ishmael and the male members of the house.
The covenant Allah made with Abraham is not relevant in this case. That is only for information only. Allah made a covenant with many over the ages. There are many who broke the covenant and become apostate via various methods.


A covenant for a Muslim is a very personal, private and individual affair.
An implied covenant exist for a baby born into a Muslim family.
An explicit covenant is initiated by a converted Muslim recited the Sahada or its essential elements in various forms.
A baby Muslim who recites the elements as in the Sahada in his/her adult life would have reaffirmed the covenant explicitly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2016, 04:07 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The covenant Allah made with Abraham is not relevant in this case. That is only for information only. Allah made a covenant with many over the ages. There are many who broke the covenant and become apostate via various methods.
The covenant Allah made with Abraham is 100% relevant even to this day for all Muslims (including Jews and Christians). Muslim's faith is Abrahamic faith. Abraham's immediate followers were named Muslim by Abraham because of their obeying God (3:67, 4:125, 16:123, 42:13)


Quote:
A covenant for a Muslim is a very personal, private and individual affair.
An implied covenant exist for a baby born into a Muslim family.
An explicit covenant is initiated by a converted Muslim recited the Sahada or its essential elements in various forms.
A baby Muslim who recites the elements as in the Sahada in his/her adult life would have reaffirmed the covenant explicitly.
Shahada is only confirmation of "faith" openly. He main term of the covenant is "obey". This can be complied only by action rather than mere words.

You do not understand covenant for Muslims. Covenant of Abraham and Muslims is not mere lip service as in Shahada but "walking in front of God" taking His direction, "obeying Him". Obeying God is absolutely central to the Abrahamic covenant. Obeying God is "serving God", "worshiping God", "keeping the commandments".

The more you express your views here the more you convince me that you know very little about Islam and the Qur'an.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2016, 04:22 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This obligation is conditioned upon certain situations as mentioned in the Quran.
But the problem the definition of these 'certain situations' are vague and ambiguous that influenced and inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
No. The situations are not vague or ambiguous to a vast majority of people nor actually ambiguous as the situations are explained in the Qur'an and limits set.. Only those find them ambiguous who do not understand them whether through lack of Qur'anic knowledge or hate against Islam.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2016, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The covenant Allah made with Abraham is 100% relevant even to this day for all Muslims (including Jews and Christians). Muslim's faith is Abrahamic faith. Abraham's immediate followers were named Muslim by Abraham because of their obeying God (3:67, 4:125, 16:123, 42:13)


Shahada is only confirmation of "faith" openly. He main term of the covenant is "obey". This can be complied only by action rather than mere words.

You do not understand covenant for Muslims. Covenant of Abraham and Muslims is not mere lip service as in Shahada but "walking in front of God" taking His direction, "obeying Him". Obeying God is absolutely central to the Abrahamic covenant. Obeying God is "serving God", "worshiping God", "keeping the commandments".

The more you express your views here the more you convince me that you know very little about Islam and the Qur'an.
First your basis of reading the Quran is based on faith, i.e. without proofs nor reason.
On the other hand I read the Quran and review Islam objectively and stick to the truth as much as possible.
Therefore your criticism of me knowing very little about Islam is not credibility at all.


I suggest you stop yelping about me not knowing the Quran, based on your own faith-based ungrounded knowledge of spirituality and religion.


I suggest you understand what is the meaning of a covenant and start from there.
Covenant | Define Covenant at Dictionary.com


Note the Quran mentioned local Messengers of language of their own are sent to various groups of humans from time to time.
The covenant of Abraham is only relevant for Abraham as an individual and it is implied each believer must enter into an individual covenant with Allah to worship [which comprised submit, believe, obey, serve] Allah.
The story of Abraham is merely a story to remind believers of what happened in the past and the terrible consequences that befell on disbelievers.
Abraham was a proto-Muslim in contrast to the current Muslims who believe in the Quran via Gabriel and Muhammad.


Note I mentioned the Sahada [and its essential element] is merely an initial pledge of agreement to enter into the covenant with Allah and obvious each parties must execute and perform their obligations within the terms and conditions of the covenant.


Analogy:
1. You and I can enter into an agreement [contract, covenant] from me to teach you about problem-solving techniques.
2. We can confirm the agreement by a handshake or preferable in a signed written contract with the respective contractual terms.
3. To fulfill the contract I must teach to your satisfaction and you have to made payment as a fee.

The principles of contract are universally the same with all humans.
The sahada is the same as point 2 in the above analogy.
Then the Muslim must follow up with the execution of the covenant is in point 3, in this case the Muslim must worship [which comprised submit, believe, obey, serve] Allah.
In return Allah is obligated within the covenant to reward the good Muslim with eternal life in Paradise fill superlative sensual delights.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2016, 02:56 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
First your basis of reading the Quran is based on faith, i.e. without proofs nor reason.
In religion, I don't need "proof" as the scientists need proof. In religion, I certainly use "reason". I have even explained to you the reason I believe Allah exists. That was only one of the reasons. If I don't use the same reason you use to reject Allah, it does not mean that I do not use reason. Your reason is not the only usable reason.

Quote:
On the other hand I read the Quran and review Islam objectively and stick to the truth as much as possible.
Therefore your criticism of me knowing very little about Islam is not credibility at all.
You read the Qur'an but your objective in reading the Qur'an is completely wrong. You do not ponder over what is said and do not comprehend what is said because your starting point, "Allah does not exists", stops you understanding the Qur'an. In other words, you have rejected the Qur'an before even reading it and closed your mind to it from the outset.


Quote:
I suggest you stop yelping about me not knowing the Quran, based on your own faith-based ungrounded knowledge of spirituality and religion.
Not on my faith based knowlede but based on what you write here. It is what you write here that gives me reason to believe that you do not "understand" Islam.


Quote:
I suggest you understand what is the meaning of a covenant and start from there.
Covenant | Define Covenant at Dictionary.com
If you start with an English dictionary, you can learn only English. If you start with the Qur'an, the covenant in Islam will become clear to you only then. Just the first few verses of the first Surah in the Qur'an would be enough. In fact, just one verse, "Thee we serve and Thee we beseech for help" should be enough for the seeker of truth about the covenant. Shahadah defines "Thee" in this verse but says nothing about actual main term of the covenant, "serving Allah".

I hope you are now beginning to understand something about Islam (serving Allah, obeying Allah, worshipping as Allah). Islam itself is covenant rather than Muhammadanism. Do you understand the difference between the two?


Quote:
Note the Quran mentioned local Messengers of language of their own are sent to various groups of humans from time to time.
The covenant of Abraham is only relevant for Abraham as an individual and it is implied each believer must enter into an individual covenant with Allah to worship [which comprised submit, believe, obey, serve] Allah.
You haven't noted that the Qur'an mentions our religion to be the same religion as the religion of Abraham 4:125, 2:132, 2:133, 2:135, 2:136, 3:67, 16:120, 16:123, 22:78, 33:7). It is the same covenant for ALL believers. The term for the believers is only ONE; obey God/Allah. Obeying God is Islam.

Quote:
The story of Abraham is merely a story to remind believers of what happened in the past and the terrible consequences that befell on disbelievers.
Abraham was a proto-Muslim in contrast to the current Muslims who believe in the Quran via Gabriel and Muhammad.
It is this kind of ignorance about the believers and the Qur'an that reveals to me that you do not understand either the Qur'an or Islam. Read and understand 2:136. This verse knocks the stuffing out of your above view in ignorance.

Continuum, I thought you were an educated and intelligent man. Why do you then come up with such statements full of ignorance about Islam and the Qur'an?

Quote:
Note I mentioned the Sahada [and its essential element] is merely an initial pledge of agreement to enter into the covenant with Allah and obvious each parties must execute and perform their obligations within the terms and conditions of the covenant.
You are coming back from error that the Shahada is the covenant. You have come back only half way. You need to come back all the way. Shahada recognizes only the other party, and not the terms of the covenant. Therefore, it is not the covenant but only the recognition of the other Party that one is going to enter covenant with.


Quote:
Analogy:
1. You and I can enter into an agreement [contract, covenant] from me to teach you about problem-solving techniques.
2. We can confirm the agreement by a handshake or preferable in a signed written contract with the respective contractual terms.
3. To fulfill the contract I must teach to your satisfaction and you have to made payment as a fee.

The principles of contract are universally the same with all humans.
The sahada is the same as point 2 in the above analogy.
Then the Muslim must follow up with the execution of the covenant is in point 3, in this case the Muslim must worship [which comprised submit, believe, obey, serve] Allah.
In return Allah is obligated within the covenant to reward the good Muslim with eternal life in Paradise fill superlative sensual delights.
You miss the whole point here in your eagerness. 1. has nothing to do with terms of the covenant, therefore, the covenant. It is only about the parties. 2. is the terms of the covenant and, therefore, the covenant. 3. is Islam (execution of the covenant by the believers, one party in the agreement/covenant).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top