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Old 10-24-2015, 06:25 PM
 
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I must paraphrase since I do not remember the exact quote: 'A Muslim may lie to a non-Muslim and Allah will not consider it a lie'.

Is that true or is my alzheimers getting the best of me?

El Nox
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Since lying is such a basic immoral act, like any other holy text, I have not come across any verse that directly permit a believer to lie in the Quran. However the following verses implied there are circumstance where lying is implicitly acceptable.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

There are also verses from the Hadiths which are more explicit to the point.
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:59 AM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,120,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since lying is such a basic immoral act, like any other holy text, I have not come across any verse that directly permit a believer to lie in the Quran. However the following verses implied there are circumstance where lying is implicitly acceptable.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

There are also verses from the Hadiths which are more explicit to the point.
So, the direct answer to my question is YES. I understand that there may indeed be differences in verbiage of what I remember reading depending on the translator. This would account for what you have said being slightly different than my memory.

Now for a couple other questions which this post brings up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way...
This begs the question ... how can a non-Muslim believe ANYTHING a Muslim says? Isn't this the justification for the scum who will murder a US soldier he has trained, worked, and lived with? A US soldier who trusted him? And now this is called a religion of PEACE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.
How does this relate to the verse in the Qur'an (again I paraphrase because of memory lapse) that says 'Men are superior to women. If a man's wife does not obey him, he should beat her.' Additionally, please give me an example of how marital lying can be for the "greater good".

As I have said in the past, I am not trying to start a spitting contest by any of my questions ... but I really want to learn/understand.

El Nox
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
I must paraphrase since I do not remember the exact quote: 'A Muslim may lie to a non-Muslim and Allah will not consider it a lie'.

Is that true or is my alzheimers getting the best of me?

El Nox
While there are instances in the Qur'an in which a lie is not punishable, it is always discourged.

In the past during the early times of the Shia/Sunni split. The Shi'ite in Sunni regions were often persecuted and even killed the shi'ite scholars passed a ruling that telling a lie (Taqyyah) or hiding the truth (kitman) was permissible to save their life.

This was even further misused to the concept it was not a sin to lie to non-Muslims

But that is not and has never been an Islamic teaching.


Quote:
The Seventeenth Greater Sin: Lying

Lying is another sin which is classified among the Greater sins. The famous scholar, Shaykh Ansari (r.a.) writes in his book, Makasib al-Muharrama:

“Common sense suggests lying is Harām, all the revealed religions also say so; particularly Islam. The Qur’an is explicit in this regard. The corpus of hadith (opinion of the majority of the jurists) verifies this tenet and reason also sustains this assertion.”

Lying is listed with the greater sins in the narration of Fazl Ibn Shazān from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.).
Lying is one of the greatest sins

A tradition from the Holy Prophet (S) declares,

“Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!”1

A similar tradition has been quoted from Imam Hasan al-Askari (a.s.) also,

“All the evils have been locked in a room and its key is lying.”2
Angels curse the liars

The Prophet of Islam in another tradition is quoted to have said,

“When a believer utters a lie without a valid excuse, he is cursed by seventy thousand angels. Such a stench emanates from his heart that it reaches the sky and because of this single lie Allah writes for him a sin equivalent to that of committing seventy fornications. Such fornications that the least of which is fornication with ones mother.”3

Undoubtedly, lying is the worst of sins. It is obvious that the evils of lying are more dreadful than those of adultery. Some false words lead to war between two tribes or two sections of the society. Some lies blight the honour of thousands of people or endanger their lives, or lead to economic disasters.
The Seventeenth Greater Sin: Lying | Greater Sins Volume 2 | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org
In another post I addressed the Islamic concept of sin. It is not a smple do or do not do answer if is 5 levels of responsibility.
1. FIQH-Obligated to do. There will be a punishment if one deliberetly does not do it.
2.SUNNAH- Encourged to do, there will be rewards for doing, but no punishment for not doing.
3.HALAL- No punishment or reward for doing or not doing.
4. MAKRUH-Discourged. Rewards if one does not do it but no punishment for doing
5.HARAM- Forbidden, there will be a punsihment if a person does it.

The are 3 types of lies many scholars consider to come under level 4 MAKRUH

Quote:
Permissible Lies

Lying is haram in all but three cases. These three cases are: lying in war, to reconcile between two disputing parties,[9] and a spouse lying to the other for the sake of love.


“ All lies are taken into account except three: 1. When husband lies in a way to his wife in order to please her, or 2. Lying to decieve (the enemy) in war, or 3. lying in order to reconcile between two people.[10]
Lying in Islam - The Islamic Encyclopedia, History, People, Places
Telling a lie is never encouraged or approved. It is always a sin and something to be avoided.

I am not certain if this site is Shi'ite or Ahmadyyah, it does not seem to be Sunni however this answer regarding lies seems to also reflect the Sunni view.

Quote:
Etiquette, Morals and Heart-Softeners » Character and Morals » Bad behaviour.
arfr
175632: Is it permissible to lie to kaafirs?

Is it permissable to lie to kaafirs?.
Praise be to Allaah.

Lying is a reprehensible and blameworthy characteristic and is not appropriate whether in earnest or in jest. There is no concession allowing it except in cases of necessity in order to achieve some definite shar‘i interest that cannot be attained by telling the truth, or to ward off serious harm that cannot be warded off by telling the truth. If it is possible to avoid lying and to tell the truth in order to obtain interests or ward off harm, then there is no concession that allows lying.

Ahmad (17) narrated that Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: O people, beware of lying, for lying is contrary to faith.

Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani. See ad-Da‘eefah, 5/414

It is narrated in a saheeh report from Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqaas (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Muslim could develop all sorts of characteristics except treachery and lying.

And it is narrated in a saheeh report from Ibn Mas‘ood (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: Lying is never appropriate in earnest or in jest. Then he recited the words of Allah (interpretation of the meaning): “Fear Allah, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds).” [at-Tawbah 9:119].

Narrated by Ibn Abi Shaybah, 8/403

Muslim (2605) narrated from Umm Kalthoom bint ‘Uqbah that she heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people, saying good things and conveying good things.”

Ibn Shihaab – one of the narrators of the hadeeth – said: I did not hear of any concession being granted concerning anything that people call lies except in three cases: War, reconciling among people, and what a man says to his wife or a woman says to her husband.

Imam Ahmad (26731) narrated that Umm Kalthoom bint ‘Uqbah said: I never heard the Messenger of Allah grant a concession allowing any kind of lying except in three cases: a man who says something intending thereby to bring about reconciliation; a man who says something at the time of war; and a man talking to his wife or a woman talking to her husband.

Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in as-Saheehah, 545

The concession is granted only in these three cases and similar cases. In all other cases the lawgiver has not allowed any concession, so lying remains forbidden.

Indeed what the Muslim should do, especially Muslims who live in kaafir societies, is to be keen to be honest and to avoid lying to the kaafirs, even more keen than he is to avoid lying to the believers, because his keenness to be honest and to connect that to the teachings of his religion, is a kind of practical da‘wah to the non-Muslims. If they see the noble characteristics that are promoted by Islam, that may lead to some of them entering the religion of Allah.
Is it permissible to lie to kaafirs? - islamqa.info
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since lying is such a basic immoral act, like any other holy text, I have not come across any verse that directly permit a believer to lie in the Quran. However the following verses implied there are circumstance where lying is implicitly acceptable.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

There are also verses from the Hadiths which are more explicit to the point.
Some clarification of those ayyats is needed:

Quote:
16:106--
An-Nahl (The Bee) - 16:106
مَن كَفَرَ بِاللّهِ مِن بَعْدِ إيمَانِهِ إِلاَّ مَنْ أُكْرِهَ وَقَلْبُهُ مُطْمَئِنٌّ بِالإِيمَانِ وَلَـكِن مَّن شَرَحَ بِالْكُفْرِ صَدْرًا فَعَلَيْهِمْ غَضَبٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (16:106)

Man kafara biAllahi min baAAdi eemanihi illa man okriha waqalbuhu mutmainnun bialeemani walakin man sharaha bialkufri sadran faAAalayhim ghadabun mina Allahi walahum AAathabun AAatheemun

As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith-and this, to be sure, does not apply to [133] one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, [134] but [only, to] him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth-: upon all such [falls] God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them: - 16:106 (Asad)

Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. - 16:106 (Y. Ali)

Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with Faith but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom. - 16:106 (Picktall)
This is quite clear it means that a person who denies being a Muslim against his will is not an apostate. It is not permission to lie to non-Muslims
Quote:
3:28--
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:28
لاَّ يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاء مِن دُوْنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلاَّ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَاةً وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللّهُ نَفْسَهُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ الْمَصِيرُ (3:28)

La yattakhithi almuminoona alkafireena awliyaa min dooni almumineena waman yafAAal thalika falaysa mina Allahi fee shayin illa an tattaqoo minhum tuqatan wayuhaththirukumu Allahu nafsahu waila Allahi almaseeru

LET NOT the believers take those who deny the truth for their allies in preference to the believers [19] - since he who does this cuts himself off from God in everything - unless it be to protect yourselves against them in this way. [20] But God warns you to beware of Him: for with God is all journeys' end. - 3:28 (Asad)

Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. - 3:28 (Y. Ali)

Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying. - 3:28 (Picktall)

The word being translated as Friends, Allies, or helpers is أَوْلِيَاء awliyaa which is much deeper than the English word friend. Some other transltions of awliyaa are parents, cutodians, protectors, and sponsors. The Arabic word for friend is صديق siddiq. There is nothing in the Qur'an, Sunnah, madhabs or ahadith that forbids us from having a non-Muslim as a siddiq.
Quote:
9:3--
At-Tauba (The Repentance) - 9:3
وَأَذَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الأَكْبَرِ أَنَّ اللّهَ بَرِيءٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ وَرَسُولُهُ فَإِن تُبْتُمْ فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُمْ غَيْرُ مُعْجِزِي اللّهِ وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (9:3)

Waathanun mina Allahi warasoolihi ila alnnasi yawma alhajji alakbari anna Allaha bareeon mina almushrikeena warasooluhu fain tubtum fahuwa khayrun lakum wain tawallaytum faiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahi wabashshiri allatheena kafaroo biAAathabin aleemin

And a proclamation from God and His Apostle [is herewith made] unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage: [3] "God disavows all who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and [so does] His Apostle. Hence, if you repent, it shall be for your own good; and if you turn away, then know that you can never elude God!" And unto those who are bent on denying the truth give thou [O Prophet] the tiding of grievous chastisement. - 9:3 (Asad)

And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. - 9:3 (Y. Ali)

And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. - 9:3 (Picktall)

In surah 9 ayyats 1-10 are the result of the Mushriks in Mecca violating the treaty. A condition of the treaty was that they would not interfere with Muslims that come to Mecca for Hajj. They prevented them from the Hajj thereby violating the treaty. Ayyats 1-10 were sent to all the Arab tribes and the Mushrik notifying them that the treaty was now void and after a year (4 sacred months) the Mushrik would no longer be allowed in Mecca and after the year it would be considered an act of war for a mushrik to be in Mecca. As a result of the warning, there was no bloodshed.
Quote:
40:28
Ghafir (The Forgiver) - 40:28
وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ (40:28)

Waqala rajulun muminun min ali firAAawna yaktumu eemanahu ataqtuloona rajulan an yaqoola rabbiyya Allahu waqad jaakum bialbayyinati min rabbikum wain yaku kathiban faAAalayhi kathibuhu wain yaku sadiqan yusibkum baAAdu allathee yaAAidukum inna Allaha la yahdee man huwa musrifun kaththabun

At that, a believing man of Pharaoh’s family, who [until then] had concealed his faith, exclaimed: [19] “Would you slay a man because he says, ‘God is my Sustainer’ - seeing, withal, that he has brought you all evidence of this truth from your Sustainer? Now if he be a liar, his lie will fall back on him; but if he is a man of truth, something [of the punishment] whereof he warns you is bound to befall you: for, verily, God would not grace with His guidance one who has wasted his own self by lying [about Him]. [20] - 40:28 (Asad)

A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah.?- when he has indeed come to you with Clear (Signs) from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is (the sin of) his lie: but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the (calamity) of which he warns you: Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies! - 40:28 (Y. Ali)

And a believing man of Pharaoh's family, who hid his faith, said: Would ye kill a man because he saith: My Lord is Allah, and hath brought you clear proofs from your Lord? If he is lying, then his lie is upon him; and if he is truthful then some of that wherewith he threateneth you will strike you. Lo! Allah guideth not one who is a prodigal, a liar. - 40:28 (Picktall)

This is part of the story of Moses. When Pharaoh threatened to kill Moses, a member of pharoah's family admitted to having secretly been a believer and pleaded for Moses to be spared.
Quote:
2:225
Al-Baqara (The Cow) - 2:225 [read in context]
لاَّ يُؤَاخِذُكُمُ اللّهُ بِاللَّغْوِ فِيَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ وَلَكِن يُؤَاخِذُكُم بِمَا كَسَبَتْ قُلُوبُكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ (2:225)

La yuakhithukumu Allahu biallaghwi fee aymanikum walakin yuakhithukum bima kasabat quloobukum waAllahu ghafoorun haleemun

God will not take you to task for oaths which you may have uttered without thought, but will take you to task [only] for what your hearts have conceived [in earnest]: for God is much-forgiving, forbearing. - 2:225 (Asad)

Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. - 2:225 (Y. Ali)

Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths. But He will take you to task for that which your hearts have garnered. Allah is Forgiving, Clement. - 2:225 (Picktall)

This is not granting permission to lie in oaths. It is acknowledgement of human nature in which we may sometimes promise something we can not fulfill. While we will not be held accountable for our error, it should be noted that we are only permitted to make oaths to Allaah(swt)
We are not to take/make oaths in the name of anyone except Allaah(swt) essentially any oath we make is to Allaah(swt) If we deliberately lie in an oath, we are trying to lie to Allaah(swt)
No oaths can be taken using anything other than the names and essential attributes of Allah. According to Hanafis, it is not permissible to swear oaths using the names of beings that are regarded as holy by Muslims like, Nabi, the Quran, the Kaaba (Kasani ibid, III, 5-10; Marghinani, al-Hidaya," II, 72; Mawsili ; IV, 51).
That is the Hanafi view other madhabs differ.

What is an "Oath" and If you vow to do something and you don't, then how do you compensate for it? | Questions on Islam

From the same source:

According to Hanafis, Hanbalis and Malikis, there is no kaffarah for yamin ghamus. Such a person has to ask forgiveness from Allah and repent because such an oath is a great boldness against Allah and disdaining Him; it is not possible to eliminate such a sin with kaffarah. Hazrat Prophet (pbuh) said in hadith that there was no kaffarah for five things and he listed the oath that a person had to keep among them. (Shawkani, Naylu'l-Awtar, VIII, 264). What is meant by there is no kaffarah means that kaffarah cannot eliminate the sin of that oath. Kasani (d 587/1191) says repenting and asking for forgiveness are kaffarah for yamin ghamus (Kasani, ibid, III,15). According to Shafiis, kaffarah is necessary for that oath. (Marghinani, ibid, II, 72; Ibn Qudama, XI, 178; Shirbini, ibid, IV; 325).

Yamin laghw:

According to Hanafis, yamin laghw is an oath taken by mistake, that is, an oath that the person who takes it thinks that what he says is true but it is not true. That oath can be related to the past or the present. For instance, the oath that a person takes saying he has paid his debt thinking that he has paid it but actually he has not or the oath that a person takes saying he has no money on him thinking that he has no money but he actually has is yamin laghw. (Kasani, ibid" III, 17; Marghinani, ibid, II, 72; Mawsili, ibid, IV, 46). That view of Hanafis was reported from many sahaba and tabi’in. (See Zaylai, Nasbu'r-Raya, III, 293).

According to Shafiis, yamin laghw is the words like “no, wallahi (by Allah), yes wallahi” a person says by mistake while talking (Shirbini, ibid, IV, 324, 325). That explanation of yamin laghw was reported by Hazrat Aisha from Hazrat Prophet (Bukhari, Ayman,15; Abu Dawud, Ayman, 6).

Some other explanations were reported from Hazrat Prophet for yamin laghw. For instance, in a hadith, the following is stated: "the oath of archers is laghw; no kaffarah is necessary for it. (Haythami, Majmau'z-Zawaid, IV, 185).

Scholars agree that a person is not regarded to have committed a sin due to yamin laghw and that no kaffarah is necessary because Allah has stated that He will not call His slaves to account for yamin al-laghw. (al-Maeda, 5/89).

But the general opinion is we are not permitted to lie in an oath to anyone, including non-Muslims
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Old 10-25-2015, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
So, the direct answer to my question is YES. I understand that there may indeed be differences in verbiage of what I remember reading depending on the translator. This would account for what you have said being slightly different than my memory.

Now for a couple other questions which this post brings up:

This begs the question ... how can a non-Muslim believe ANYTHING a Muslim says? Isn't this the justification for the scum who will murder a US soldier he has trained, worked, and lived with? A US soldier who trusted him? And now this is called a religion of PEACE?

How does this relate to the verse in the Qur'an (again I paraphrase because of memory lapse) that says 'Men are superior to women. If a man's wife does not obey him, he should beat her.' Additionally, please give me an example of how marital lying can be for the "greater good".

As I have said in the past, I am not trying to start a spitting contest by any of my questions ... but I really want to learn/understand.

El Nox
Btw, those were commentaries from the link I provided. Personally I am not into the question of lying in the Quran itself. If Muslim refer to other texts where they condoned lying then that would be a serious issue.

On the question of 'lying' I would prefer to deal with it within the Philosophy of Moral/Ethics.

Within the philosophy of Moral/Ethics, we have the following;
1. There is the Theoretical Principle, Lying is Absolutely non permissible.
2. In practice 'lying' [white lies] are permissible where there is an existential threat to the individual[s] or for the greater good.

Therefore if any religion or any one condone lying [white lies] within 2 above I have no issue with that as long as it is not lying for evil purposes or has no potential for evil motives.

For example IF the Jain holy texts condone lying explicitly or implicitly for practical reasons, there is no serious threat as there are no potential of evil and violence to individuals and humanity at all.

So the critical point is whether the core holy texts of a religion contain evil laden elements that are likely to catalyze SOME evil prone believers in whatever the circumstance [including lying, etc.]

Regardless of lying or whatever there is a potential problem arising from a Muslim in a non-Muslim army. In the broadest sense the non-Muslims [infidel] is deemed to be an enemy of Islam as per the Quran. The Muslim has a duty to protect his religion. Thus a Muslim will have a tough time prioritizing his allegiance between his army/country and his religion depending on the degree of piety.
If the Muslim want to be a truer Muslim, as per the Quran, his religion will have to come first as he has entered into a covenant with Allah that takes care of his final destiny in heaven.
In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah?
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:23 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
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This forum is here to discuss issues relates to Islam and answer questions about Islam. It is NOT her to probe and question Muslims about ISIS or any other rogue faction, or expecting the few Muslims who post here to defend violent radicals in the Middle East. If anybody has a problem complying with this, it would be wise to find somewhere else to post.
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