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Old 10-29-2015, 08:11 PM
 
828 posts, read 700,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Ninety-nine point nine percent are good, decent people. Unfortunately, that leaves one tenth of one percent, or one and a half million, who are bloodthirsty, sociopathic terrorists. We can pretend that they do not exist, but that is worse by far than acknowledging the painful truth that Islam contains within it the motivation for a small but significant percentage of its followers to become murderers.
Ok, what percentage of the population anywhere do you think is violent? Think about the prisons and the every day violence and ugliness that takes place.

 
Old 10-29-2015, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
NEVER BE FORCED?

From Jihad in Islam by Sayyeed Abdul A'la Maududi, one of the most prolific and most widely read and influential Islamic writers of the 20th Century:
“The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy.”
FROM THE SAYINGS OF MUHAMMAD:
• -- Muhammad said to the Jews: "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. “
• -- Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
• -- Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not).
• -- Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
• -- Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel).
• -- Muhammad said: "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, …"
Ayatollah Khomeini, the most important Moslem leader of the 20th Century, said:
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless.
Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured?
Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter their armies....
Islam says: whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword!
People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! the sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other Koranic psalms and Hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."
Maududi while his Tafsir is one of the best of the 20th Century commentators, However He was very radical in his younger years but toned down in his later years. He was more of an activist politician engaged in attaining the Partition of India and the formation of Pakistan. We do not accebt any person as being a spokesperson for Islam. while Maududiwas a recognized scholat he was not part of the Ullemah.

The Ayatoullahs are Shi'ite and are not to be followed by Sunni. About 90% of the worlds Muslims are Sunni and many doubt if any ayatoullah is even a Musli. I am a rarity among Sunni as I accept the Shi'a as being Musli, but, I do not accept any ayatoullah as a religious leader nor a valid source to give a fatwah (Islamic opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

From the Hadith:
Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.
- - - -

Since ISLAM is at war with all other religions / peoples / governments, Muslims can LIE to Kafirs without violating their religious tenets.
Hadith are seconday to the Qur'an and in the event there appears to be a contradiction with the Qur'an the Qur'an over rides the hadith. The Ahadith are not infallible and are words from the memories of men, not the word of Allaah.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,520 posts, read 20,898,162 times
Reputation: 13855
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwall View Post
Ok, what percentage of the population anywhere do you think is violent? Think about the prisons and the every day violence and ugliness that takes place.
There is a substantial difference between isolated acts of violence and religiously-inspired mass murder. Psychopathic criminality which is inspired by radicalized members of a religious sect differs both in kind and degree from individual perpetrators.
 
Old 10-29-2015, 09:18 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,890 posts, read 6,252,717 times
Reputation: 12349
Quote:
Originally Posted by AminWi View Post
Every immigrant group that has come to the US has changed the culture here. People who take a snapshot in time and call it the real America are just not being honest about our history and seeking to preserve it exactly as it was is a fool's errand. We're a vibrant, constantly changing society.
True to a point. Most immigrant groups, Scandinavians being the major exception, started in urban environments such as New York City. These places were large enough that the influx occurred on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis. The problem with current migrants (mostly but not entirely Latino) is their insistence on not learning the use of English as a primary language. I think we need to drop political correctness and urge or coerce immigrants into assimilating and shedding insularity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AminWi View Post
I think it would benefit a lot of the folks here to befriend some Muslims, listen to them, and reflect a bit.
I have. I agree. But the two Muslims I have befriended are highly assimilated. One is a Turk who worked in Israel for awhile. Another is an Indian Muslim who works for a Jewish company; and his wife works for an Israeli company.
 
Old 10-29-2015, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Bordentown
1,707 posts, read 1,128,305 times
Reputation: 2533
My problem with religion is that women are marginalized. Why must women cover up but not men? Why is it a woman's "job" to be a "mother, daughter, wife, and sister"? Why can't we all just live our lives without infringing upon each others' well being? That's my problem with religion. But, to each his own, I guess.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Denver
1,149 posts, read 987,346 times
Reputation: 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Ninety-nine point nine percent are good, decent people. Unfortunately, that leaves one tenth of one percent, or one and a half million, who are bloodthirsty, sociopathic terrorists. We can pretend that they do not exist, but that is worse by far than acknowledging the painful truth that Islam contains within it the motivation for a small but significant percentage of its followers to become murderers.
Like Bill Maher said.
It's not the problem that 99.9 or whatever % are good.
It's that they silently support or don't oppose the .1% that makes them look bad overall.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,839 posts, read 1,694,466 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Maududi while his Tafsir is one of the best of the 20th Century commentators, However He was very radical in his younger years but toned down in his later years. He was more of an activist politician engaged in attaining the Partition of India and the formation of Pakistan. We do not accebt any person as being a spokesperson for Islam. while Maududiwas a recognized scholat he was not part of the Ullemah.

The Ayatoullahs are Shi'ite and are not to be followed by Sunni. About 90% of the worlds Muslims are Sunni and many doubt if any ayatoullah is even a Musli. I am a rarity among Sunni as I accept the Shi'a as being Musli, but, I do not accept any ayatoullah as a religious leader nor a valid source to give a fatwah (Islamic opinion)



Hadith are seconday to the Qur'an and in the event there appears to be a contradiction with the Qur'an the Qur'an over rides the hadith. The Ahadith are not infallible and are words from the memories of men, not the word of Allaah.
As I said, the problem is with interpretation.

The Ottoman Empire, for all of it's shortcomings, was a fairly tolerant system (as long as it concerned the People of the Book, and as long as they accepted the superiority of Muslims within the Empire). The Ottomans managed to achieve this in part by clamping down on the followers of the more extreme interpretations of Quran, sometimes mercilessly if this was required. Remember, up until relatively recently (in historic terms) all of the Middle East was ruled by the Ottomans, and that's where the most extreme interpretations seem to originate.

Since the Ottoman Empire got dismantled, it seems these more extreme views took over.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
1,256 posts, read 696,089 times
Reputation: 1432
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
True to a point. Most immigrant groups, Scandinavians being the major exception, started in urban environments such as New York City. These places were large enough that the influx occurred on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis. The problem with current migrants (mostly but not entirely Latino) is their insistence on not learning the use of English as a primary language. I think we need to drop political correctness and urge or coerce immigrants into assimilating and shedding insularity.
I have.
The idea that earlier groups of immigrants assimilated faster than today's immigrants isn't true. In Wisconsin, for example, English was not a language that the majority of our population spoke for a significant part if our early history as a state. In fact, well into the 20th century, shops in Milwaukee posted "English spoken here" signs, because it was not a given that you'd be able to conduct your business in English.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
As I said, the problem is with interpretation.

The Ottoman Empire, for all of it's shortcomings, was a fairly tolerant system (as long as it concerned the People of the Book, and as long as they accepted the superiority of Muslims within the Empire). The Ottomans managed to achieve this in part by clamping down on the followers of the more extreme interpretations of Quran, sometimes mercilessly if this was required. Remember, up until relatively recently (in historic terms) all of the Middle East was ruled by the Ottomans, and that's where the most extreme interpretations seem to originate.

Since the Ottoman Empire got dismantled, it seems these more extreme views took over.
While the Ottoman Empire was very large, it was not a true caliphate as it did not encompass all Muslims. Notably the Muslims in the Far East and Northern Europe.

My ancestors (Lietuva Lipkas-Lithuanian Tatars) sided with the Europeans in fighting the Ottomans even they they also were Sunni that followed the Hanafi Madhab.

Quote:
Battle of Vienna
"at the head of 3,000 Polish heavy lancers, the famed "Winged Hussars". The Lipka Tatars who fought on the Polish side wore a sprig of straw in their helmets to distinguish themselves from the Tatars fighting on the Ottoman side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna
Prior to the Ottomans there was a fairly large Muslim presence living in Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Crimea, possibly even in Germany and Austria. The did fight against the invading Ottomans.

Historically the majority of the World's Muslims were never part of the Ottoman Empire. The largest expansion of Islam has generally been Eastward, not Westward. Islam spreads by the populace reverting to Islam, not by invasion.

One of the Earliest Mosques erected was erected in China. It was built within 30 years of the Death of Muhammad(saws)

Extremism for the most part seems to have it's root in Wahhabism Which has it's roots as a heresy that began in Hijaz in the 1700s.

Here is a non-Muslim View of Wahhabi

Here is a Muslim View





.
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Old 10-30-2015, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,459 posts, read 10,399,996 times
Reputation: 20311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery123 View Post
Like Bill Maher said.
It's not the problem that 99.9 or whatever % are good.
It's that they silently support or don't oppose the .1% that makes them look bad overall.
And I can give you an example of a degree of that kind of thinking.

Several years ago I was invited to a very large Pakistani party in northern Virginia...well over a hundred people. I turned out to be the only non-Pakistani there. I was treated very nicely. But, over the course of the evening, most of the men there came to chat with me out of curiosity. As I said, all very nice. But sooner or later, every last one of the men that chatted with me wanted to know if I didn't think that the 9/11 attack were actually CIA inspired, etc. Now, no one brought up radical Islam "stuff", but there was this common mindset. How far that common mindset goes is the problem, and I do think that Bill Maher has it right.
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