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Old 11-02-2015, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
14,647 posts, read 9,700,897 times
Reputation: 12194

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Well, they were slaveholders. And we did often push illegally into new territories.

Don't like history?
I am Ok with that but show me the curriculum that gives equal time to the liberation of Europe and countless lives Americans have lost on foreign lands to help other people. You won’t find any. Instead, every August we are lectured on how evil the US was to nuke Japan. What you see instead are efforts to ban recruiting on campus, ban 21 gun salute or anything that has to do with the military. And it is not just the military. They just relish destroying the faith in the country. Witness the slandering of Columbus.

 
Old 11-02-2015, 09:39 AM
 
1,502 posts, read 1,392,939 times
Reputation: 1495
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
I am Ok with that but show me the curriculum that gives equal time to the liberation of Europe and countless lives Americans have lost on foreign lands to help other people. You won’t find any. Instead, every August we are lectured on how evil the US was to nuke Japan. What you see instead are efforts to ban recruiting on campus, ban 21 gun salute or anything that has to do with the military. And it is not just the military. They just relish destroying the faith in the country. Witness the slandering of Columbus.
We're a great nation (and I truly believe this) who preaches human rights yet has the distinction of being the only country that has nuked another sovereign nation. To many that fact alone makes us look like a walking mass of contradiction.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,839 posts, read 1,693,661 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There never has been any major Arab invasions. The Arab people never really spread much beyond the Arabian peninsula, However the Arabic language did and that became the Arab Empire, although the people were not Arabs.
So the battle of Tolouse never happened and the Iberian peninsula was never attacked & conquered by the Moors ? Or are you saying that the Umayyads were not Arabic, or not Muslim ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Moghuls were not Muslim until after they conquered India and the Arabian peninsula. .However their conversion to Islam did result in the largest Westward spread of Islam

Possibly this is the reason the Muslims in Northern Europe sided with the non-Muslim Europeans against the Ottomans. The European Muslims are Lipkas (Tatar) and predominately Moghul.
They were a relatively small minority, and their religion at that time was secondary to their affiliations. Which doesn't happen that often.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,438 posts, read 10,390,177 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
I am Ok with that but show me the curriculum that gives equal time to the liberation of Europe and countless lives Americans have lost on foreign lands to help other people. You won’t find any. Instead, every August we are lectured on how evil the US was to nuke Japan. What you see instead are efforts to ban recruiting on campus, ban 21 gun salute or anything that has to do with the military. And it is not just the military. They just relish destroying the faith in the country. Witness the slandering of Columbus.
That's not correct at all. History texts in schools cover both World Wars.

"every August we are lectured on how evil the US was to nuke Japan". Really? While it is something discussed (as are Japanese war crimes), I must have missed those lectures. In the middle school where I was principal, in the gifted social studies classes, that was debated. Some years the vote after the debate went one way, some years the other.

How many schools have banned the 21 gun salute? I found one, and that wasn't in disrespect of the military, it was about firing guns on campus.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Secure Bunker
5,464 posts, read 2,497,718 times
Reputation: 5242
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Could you show me an example of that curriculum?

2. But you're right. We shouldn't apologize for stealing land and making the Indians become nearly extinct! That's good stuff. We should probably do it more often for the glory of God and the United States.
While it's true that we broke many treaties with Native Americans, and they were often treated poorly, you seem to be unaware of the fact that Native Americans themselves lived in a conquer/be conquered world. They were constantly stealing land, resources and even people from each other. Most Native Americans lived in a warrior society. In fact, it wasn't uncommon for one tribe or group of tribes to attack another tribe with sole purpose of totally obliterating them from history. Many tribes are now extinct because of the violence of other tribes. This included the murder of women and children. Today we call such actions "genocide" but nobody wants to talk about it because we have a prepackaged view of native Americans handed to us.

As for apologies... We've already done that:

First Peoples Worldwide » The Apology to the Native Peoples of the United States

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nativ...ogy_Resolution

You may also have noticed that US currency often depicted (and continues to depict) Native Americans. This started just after the western migration of people living on the east coast. The purpose of this was to honor Native Americans and extend a hand of reconciliation. We still do this today.

We should still work to correct past injustices but the situation is far more complex that what you present.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,438 posts, read 10,390,177 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyadic View Post
We're a great nation (and I truly believe this) who preaches human rights yet has the distinction of being the only country that has nuked another sovereign nation. To many that fact alone makes us look like a walking mass of contradiction.
Balanced viewpoint.

Some people like to look at the best face of America and say, "That's us!"
Others like to look at the worst face of America and say, "That's us!"
And the balanced people say, "The reality is that we're somewhere in the middle."
 
Old 11-02-2015, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,438 posts, read 10,390,177 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyster View Post
While it's true that we broke many treaties with Native Americans, and they were often treated poorly, you seem to be unaware of the fact that Native Americans themselves lived in a conquer/be conquered world. They were constantly stealing land, resources and even people from each other. Most Native Americans lived in a warrior society. In fact, it wasn't uncommon for one tribe or group of tribes to attack another tribe with sole purpose of totally obliterating them from history. Many tribes are now extinct because of the violence of other tribes. This included the murder of women and children. Today we call such actions "genocide" but nobody wants to talk about it because we have a prepackaged view of native Americans handed to us.

As for apologies... We've already done that:

First Peoples Worldwide » The Apology to the Native Peoples of the United States

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nativ...ogy_Resolution

You may also have noticed that US currency often depicted (and continues to depict) Native Americans. This started just after the western migration of people living on the east coast. The purpose of this was to honor Native Americans and extend a hand of reconciliation. We still do this today.

We should still work to correct past injustices but the situation is far more complex that what you present.
Actually, Tyster, I'm completely aware of how various American Indian tribes were ruthlessly aggressive toward other tribes. There are very good example of that, for example, in New Mexico, but other places as well. And I have discussed that at various times, and even brought it up. But that is not the discussion we are having in this thread.

Apologies are all well and good. When we actually do something to improve the lives of American Indians living on reservations -- perhaps along the concepts used to improve Appalachia back beginning in the 1960s -- then I'll believe in the sincerity of that apology. Until then, it's just words, because the American Indian situation currently in the United States is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) disgraces within our borders.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Secure Bunker
5,464 posts, read 2,497,718 times
Reputation: 5242
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Actually, Tyster, I'm completely aware of how various American Indian tribes were ruthlessly aggressive toward other tribes. There are very good example of that, for example, in New Mexico, but other places as well. And I have discussed that at various times, and even brought it up. But that is not the discussion we are having in this thread.

Apologies are all well and good. When we actually do something to improve the lives of American Indians living on reservations -- perhaps along the concepts used to improve Appalachia back beginning in the 1960s -- then I'll believe in the sincerity of that apology. Until then, it's just words, because the American Indian situation currently in the United States is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) disgraces within our borders.

The best thing we could do for Native Americans is allow them to actually own their own property on the reservations. Many reservations don't allow the residents to own the house they live in and the land it's on. It's US government property. They are basically living in a government owned box with no property rights. But studies have shown that reservations that allow private ownership are far more prosperous. People value their property. Change that, and provide business incentives and good education and they'll prosper.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 12:20 PM
 
12,636 posts, read 10,487,316 times
Reputation: 17427
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Balanced viewpoint.

Some people like to look at the best face of America and say, "That's us!"
Others like to look at the worst face of America and say, "That's us!"
And the balanced people say, "The reality is that we're somewhere in the middle."
We are definitely somewhere in the middle. We are not perfect. Neither is anyone else. And that does include native tribes pre-colonization, as another poster pointed out. They were brutal towards one another. They even picked sides and fought one another in our wars with the natives just to get back at enemy tribes. My point is, it's a theme in history for all people to do horrible things to others at some point or points in time. We are not unique in this. I wish NA history was taught better, or even at all, in public schools. It is quite interesting and they are misrepresented in various ways, good and bad.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 02:32 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,861 posts, read 6,242,907 times
Reputation: 12307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Tyster, there are some things I agree with you ... but on this one point you are very wrong.

The Crusaders massacred tens of thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of Jewish civilians living peaceably in both Europe and in present day Israel. Killed them - men, women and children ... and demolished their synagogues and desecrated their cemeteries. What is "defensive" about that???

The Crusader's goal was to capture Jerusalem, and there is nothing defensive about that. Jerusalem is not in Europe.

The bloodthirsty Crusades cannot be defended. The horrors of the Spanish Inquisition cannot be defended.

Just as the bloody pogroms in the 19th and early 20th Centuries cannot be defended.
I am not Christian but I am Jewish. Jerusalem was originally Jewish, and then fell under Roman control. After the Roman Empire imploded, by then a Christian (sort of) entity, Islam invaded and took Jerusalem by force. What makes a counter-invasion wrong or indefensible?

For that matter, you probably consider the Jewish recapture of Jerusalem wrong. Correct?
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