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Old 11-02-2015, 03:25 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,592 posts, read 12,349,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I am not Christian but I am Jewish. Jerusalem was originally Jewish, and then fell under Roman control. After the Roman Empire imploded, by then a Christian (sort of) entity, Islam invaded and took Jerusalem by force. What makes a counter-invasion wrong or indefensible?

For that matter, you probably consider the Jewish recapture of Jerusalem wrong. Correct?
I am aware of the fact conquest is a part of human history. When GENOCIDE is a part of conquest I think any civilized person would consider it wrong. When the European Crusaders entered what is now Israel it was their mission and goal to smite all of Jews and Muslims who were living there ... and steal everything they owned. The Crusaders even killed thousands of other Christians in Constantinople because these Christians were members of the Eastern Church, not the Roman Church.

The horror inflicted on innocent civilians by the Crusaders is unspeakable.

The Jews never really left Jerusalem ... so in my view it did not need to be recaptured. After the Roman Diaspora they trickled back in. That is why thousands of Jews lived in Jerusalem when the bloody Crusaders arrived. In more recent history, Mark Twain recounted a Jewish majority in that city when he traveled there after the Civil War 150 years ago. Before Israeli independence the rulers of Jerusalem were Arab Muslims ... like the fascist tyrant Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who aligned himself with Hitler and Nazi Germany.

 
Old 11-02-2015, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Secure Bunker
5,464 posts, read 2,503,173 times
Reputation: 5242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Tyster, there are some things I agree with you ... but on this one point you are very wrong.

The Crusaders massacred tens of thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of Jewish civilians living peaceably in both Europe and in present day Israel. Killed them - men, women and children ... and demolished their synagogues and desecrated their cemeteries. What is "defensive" about that???

The Crusader's goal was to capture Jerusalem, and there is nothing defensive about that. Jerusalem is not in Europe.

The bloodthirsty Crusades cannot be defended. The horrors of the Spanish Inquisition cannot be defended.

Just as the bloody pogroms in the 19th and early 20th Centuries cannot be defended.
The Crusades started as a defensive action against Muslim incursions into the Holy Land (including Jerusalem). That's a fact.

It's also true that some crusader units were brutal, including the pointless murder of Jews, especially in Germany. Most of this happened under a group under the leadership of Peter the Hermit. But most other crusaders DIDN'T engage is such activities. Nevertheless the overall goal of the Crusades was to free the Holy Land of Muslim incursion.

But none of this indicts modern Christianity.
 
Old 11-02-2015, 08:07 PM
 
17,497 posts, read 10,669,720 times
Reputation: 6746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyster View Post
The Crusades started as a defensive action against Muslim incursions into the Holy Land (including Jerusalem). That's a fact.

It's also true that some crusader units were brutal, including the pointless murder of Jews, especially in Germany. Most of this happened under a group under the leadership of Peter the Hermit. But most other crusaders DIDN'T engage is such activities. Nevertheless the overall goal of the Crusades was to free the Holy Land of Muslim incursion.

But none of this indicts modern Christianity.
Many posters on here can't point to anything in modern history, except Westboro Baptist and cake bakers. This is why they stretch clear back to the Crusades, like it really matters now. If they really wanted to challenge religion they would enter a Muslim bakery.
 
Old 11-03-2015, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
Many posters on here can't point to anything in modern history, except Westboro Baptist and cake bakers. This is why they stretch clear back to the Crusades, like it really matters now. If they really wanted to challenge religion they would enter a Muslim bakery.
Not a bad idea. Except how would one identify a Muslim bakery?

As the vast majority of Muslims are Asiatic a Muslim bakery has a strong probability of being a Chinese bakery.
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