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Old 10-26-2015, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Being Muslim is very individualistic and is between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.
Woodrow LI,
Which verses from the Quran support your point above?

I believe the above proposition must be viewed in its various perspectives.
From what I read of the Quran, I agree ULTIMATELY on Judgment Day the matter is between the individual and Allah only. No one can bear another's load during the process of judgment and the decision to be made by Allah.

However there are many verses in the Quran where Muslims must work collectively to help one another in their journey and path, defend the religion if under threat, compete with others and for other relevant purposes, e.g. [mine]
90:17. And to be of those [Muslims] who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity.

103:3. Save those [Muslims] who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one [Muslim with] another to endurance.

2:148. And each one [Muslim] hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another [Muslims] in good works. Wheresoever ye [Muslim] may be, Allah will bring you [Muslims] all together. [on J-DAY] Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

49:10. The believers [Muslims] are naught else than brothers. Therefore make peace between your [Muslims] brethren and observe your duty to Allah that haply ye [Muslims] may obtain mercy.

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Old 10-27-2015, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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3:103. And [O ye Muslims] hold fast, all of you [Muslims] together, to the cable of Allah, and do not separate. And remember Allah's favour unto you: how ye [Muslims] were enemies and He made friendship between your hearts so that ye [Muslims] became as brothers [brotherhood] by His grace; and (how) ye [Muslims] were upon the brink of an abyss of fire, and He did save you from it. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations unto you, that haply ye [Muslims] may be guided,

3:104. And there may spring [emerge] from you [Muslims] a nation [ommatun] who invite to goodness, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency. Such are they [Muslims] who are successful.

The above verses implied Muslims must work collectively. [mine]
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Old 10-27-2015, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is a point to reflect re this video
"Islamic Work Between Individualism and Collectivism"
Our responsibility towards Islam is "individual" in concept and "collective" in application per Allah's order to Muhammad and us after him (So fight, [O Muhammad], in the cause of Allah; you are not held responsible except for yourself. And encourage the believers [to join you] ...) (An-Nisaa 4:84). Working for Islam within an organization provides individuals with the personal development "Tarbiya" framework and skills building opportunity. This session provides information on MAS and its Tarbiya and Membership system and how to benefit of its resourceful grass roots structure spreading allover the States.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxG5TcOBtCs
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Old 10-27-2015, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
My argument on this is;
Except for Islam, all other religions in our modern era are strictly private* and personal affairs.
*with some minor exceptions of which are not significant.

Islam is the only religion that emphasize individualism and collectivism due to the following;
Islam (noun) aka 'Deen' = Universal Religion elements [individualism] + ideological elements [collectivism]
The sole determining factor of Islam (noun) aka 'Deen' is the Quran-MGA and nothing else.

The collectivism elements i.e. the ideological elements [on wars, politics, social, economics and others non-religious matters] are within the Medinian chapters while the emphasis of the individual concepts are in the Meccan chapters.

If the Deen of Islam and Quran-MGA contain solely the Meccan chapters without the Medinian chapters, then Islam would contain merely the universal religion elements which could then be an individual affair to be a personal and private communion and interaction with Allah.

However at present Islam represented by the Quran-MGA [the immutable words of Allah] is treated as a way of life. As such its ideological elements cannot be separated from its universal religion elements.


Therefore being Muslim [adherent of Islam] CANNOT be solely individualistic and only between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.
Islam by definition imperatively comprise both the individualism elements and the collectivism elements.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My argument on this is;
Except for Islam, all other religions in our modern era are strictly private* and personal affairs.
*with some minor exceptions of which are not significant.

Islam is the only religion that emphasize individualism and collectivism due to the following;
Islam (noun) aka 'Deen' = Universal Religion elements [individualism] + ideological elements [collectivism]
The sole determining factor of Islam (noun) aka 'Deen' is the Quran-MGA and nothing else.

The collectivism elements i.e. the ideological elements [on wars, politics, social, economics and others non-religious matters] are within the Medinian chapters while the emphasis of the individual concepts are in the Meccan chapters.

If the Deen of Islam and Quran-MGA contain solely the Meccan chapters without the Medinian chapters, then Islam would contain merely the universal religion elements which could then be an individual affair to be a personal and private communion and interaction with Allah.

However at present Islam represented by the Quran-MGA [the immutable words of Allah] is treated as a way of life. As such its ideological elements cannot be separated from its universal religion elements.


Therefore being Muslim [adherent of Islam] CANNOT be solely individualistic and only between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.
Islam by definition imperatively comprise both the individualism elements and the collectivism elements.
Interesting Questions, thoughts and observations.

But I doubt if this is unique or specific to Muslims using some cliches:

No man is an Island

Birds of a feather flock together

Water seeks it's own level

Now for me to try to give some sensible replies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My argument on this is;
Except for Islam, all other religions in our modern era are strictly private* and personal affairs.
*with some minor exceptions of which are not significant..
While people may believe their religious beliefs or non-beliefs are separate from other facets of their life, they are deeply intermingled.
Every aspect of our life is what determines our individuality. We are incapable of separating our beliefs/nonbeliefs from our actions without suffering extreme cognitive dissonance, which will result in creating another belief to resolve the conflict.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam is the only religion that emphasize individualism and collectivism due to the following;.
It occurs in every subset of humanity be it religion, political, ethnicity, occupations, fashion, etc. For most of us we find our self belonging to many groups in our lifetime. each being collectivism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam (noun) aka 'Deen' = Universal Religion elements [individualism] + ideological elements [collectivism] .
De'en is best translated as being every facet of a persons life. The whole shebang rolled up in a ball. Our religious beliefs or nonbeliefs, our education, our careers, our hobbies our political views etc
It is what we live. De'en is not unique to Islam, every person lives their individual De'en. For an Atheist the religious portion of their de'en is replaced by Atheism. but it is still their De'en.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The sole determining factor of Islam (noun) aka 'Deen' is the Quran-MGA and nothing else..
That is only one facet of our De'en.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The collectivism elements i.e. the ideological elements [on wars, politics, social, economics and others non-religious matters] are within the Medinian chapters while the emphasis of the individual concepts are in the Meccan chapters ..
Many people are unaware that the surah are dated in accordance with the first ayyat in it. With the exception of the very short Surat, which were revealed entirely in Mecca the Surat contain ayyats revealed in Meccan, Medinah and elsewhere. about the only surat that are pure Meccan are 1, and 78-114

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the Deen of Islam and Quran-MGA contain solely the Meccan chapters without the Medinian chapters, then Islam would contain merely the universal religion elements which could then be an individual affair to be a personal and private communion and interaction with Allah..
I am not certain what you are trying to say here. Everything a person, Muslim and Non-Muslim, is their interaction with Allaah(swt) Just as everything we do is our level of interaction with all of humanity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However at present Islam represented by the Quran-MGA [the immutable words of Allah] is treated as a way of life. As such its ideological elements cannot be separated from its universal religion elements..
Antying we have ever had contact with can not be seperated from our life. Everything we do, see, think or hear has an effect on our life even if it is a very miniscule effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore being Muslim [adherent of Islam] CANNOT be solely individualistic and only between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.
Islam by definition imperatively comprise both the individualism elements and the collectivism elements.
True:
Islam like all things is a combination of individualism and collectivism. Our du'a are our personal, individual prayers. Our worship is predominantly individual as it is based upon our intentions, abilities and knowledge.
No one knows who is practicing Islam. We can only observe what they claim.




.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow LI,
Which verses from the Quran support your point above?

I believe the above proposition must be viewed in its various perspectives.
From what I read of the Quran, I agree ULTIMATELY on Judgment Day the matter is between the individual and Allah only. No one can bear another's load during the process of judgment and the decision to be made by Allah.

However there are many verses in the Quran where Muslims must work collectively to help one another in their journey and path, defend the religion if under threat, compete with others and for other relevant purposes, e.g. [mine]
90:17. And to be of those [Muslims] who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity.

103:3. Save those [Muslims] who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one [Muslim with] another to endurance.

2:148. And each one [Muslim] hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another [Muslims] in good works. Wheresoever ye [Muslim] may be, Allah will bring you [Muslims] all together. [on J-DAY] Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

49:10. The believers [Muslims] are naught else than brothers. Therefore make peace between your [Muslims] brethren and observe your duty to Allah that haply ye [Muslims] may obtain mercy.

Doesn't this hold true for all people? Even when I was a "Hippy" and part of the "Beatnik" movement of the 1950s, us individualistics often stuck together in mutual support.

collectivism need not be synonymous with loss of individualism.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a point to reflect re this video
"Islamic Work Between Individualism and Collectivism"
Our responsibility towards Islam is "individual" in concept and "collective" in application per Allah's order to Muhammad and us after him (So fight, [O Muhammad], in the cause of Allah; you are not held responsible except for yourself. And encourage the believers [to join you] ...) (An-Nisaa 4:84). Working for Islam within an organization provides individuals with the personal development "Tarbiya" framework and skills building opportunity. This session provides information on MAS and its Tarbiya and Membership system and how to benefit of its resourceful grass roots structure spreading allover the States.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxG5TcOBtCs
Except MAS is primarily an Indian/Pakistani organization with a goal of helping Pakistani and Indian migrants in America.

It is very natural for immigrants to form setworking organizations. You will find similar type groups among Irish, Italians, Germans, French, Polish etc immigrants. It is not necessarily religious oriented.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Interesting Questions, thoughts and observations.
But I doubt if this is unique or specific to Muslims using some cliches:
No man is an Island
Birds of a feather flock together
Water seeks it's own level
My OP you are agreeing to was raised to counter your usual claim about being Muslim, i.e.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Being Muslim is very individualistic and is between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.

So I hope you will not keep repeating 'being Muslim is very individualistic... '
Islam itself is in its totality as a way of life is both individualistic and collectivistic.

Other religions are different. The other religions recognized their religions are the individual affairs but the religion as a whole is firstly independent and then interdependent with other secular activities, such as politics, social, economics, etc.

Islam on the other hand consider every aspect of life, i.e. the way of life as Islamic, thus there is no separation between its individualism and collectivism.

Quote:
Now for me to try to give some sensible replies:
While people may believe their religious beliefs or non-beliefs are separate from other facets of their life, they are deeply intermingled.
Every aspect of our life is what determines our individuality. We are incapable of separating our beliefs/nonbeliefs from our actions without suffering extreme cognitive dissonance, which will result in creating another belief to resolve the conflict.
It occurs in every subset of humanity be it religion, political, ethnicity, occupations, fashion, etc. For most of us we find our self belonging to many groups in our lifetime. each being collectivism..
You have been claiming every subset of humanity, i.e. religion, political, ethnicity, occupations, fashion, etc. is Islam and being Muslim. This is what Islam is claiming.

I agree every aspect of our life is what determines our individuality. However we should be able to separate the various subsets as independent, private and personal while recognizing they are interdependent with every other subsets of life. Note for example, the sex subset of life which all normal human beings will deal with on a private and personal basis. Humans also separate their working life from their family life in most cases. There is no extreme cognitive dissonance in this case and I believe this question do not arise.

Just like the sex life, one should separate one's religious life [especially in the modern era] from other subset of life [while maintaining interdependence] and keep the religious life private and personal.
If this separation is done in all the other religions in the modern, why should Islam be the exception. I know for sure why Islam do not separate its religious life from others is because it is an immature religion and very unfortunate that its doctrine is immutable and do not allow it to flex with time and progress of humanity.

This is why I came out with the following formulation

Human Life = {universal religion + specifics of each religion} + other subsets of humanity.

The religious aspects of human life should be personal and private whilst maintaining interdependence with other subsets of humanity to form the system of human life.

Islam is an immature system, perhaps effective in the ancient times, i.e. represented by

Human life = Islam = {universal religion + specifics of each religion} + other subsets of humanity.
where the religious aspects is not separated from the other subsets of humanity.

Quote:
De'en is best translated as being every facet of a persons life. The whole
shebang rolled up in a ball. Our religious beliefs or nonbeliefs, our education,
our careers, our hobbies our political views etc.
It is what we live. De'en is not unique to Islam, every person lives their
individual De'en. For an Atheist the religious portion of their de'en is
replaced by Atheism. but it is still their De'en.

That is only one facet of our De'en.
The Quranic view of the Deen is too narrow and thus misleading.

Deen-proper [not Quran's Deen] is like "energy" and its universal force which pervades every facet of a person's life, society, the World and the universe.
In this case we need to differentiate the Substance 'Energy' from and its various Form.
'Energy' or the 'Deen' proper is the common underlying substance of the whole shebang of life.
It is wrong to roll up the whole shebang of life into a ball [ending with a twisted knot], we have to delineate the separate subsets and dealt with them individually where necessary while at the same time understanding they are interdependent within a common underlying universal 'deen.'

This is how Deen-proper is interpreted as the common universal force is in Din, Daena, Dharma, Tao and the likes. The point that the Quranic-Deen insisting it is different from the rest is due to its immaturity and kindergarten level of understanding of the Deen-proper which focus more on its Form rather than on its Substance.


Quote:
Many people are unaware that the surah are dated in accordance with the first ayyat in it. With the exception of the very short Surat, which were revealed entirely in Mecca the Surat contain ayyats revealed in Meccan, Medinah and elsewhere. about the only surat that are pure Meccan are 1, and 78-114
There are not correlation factors between the first verse and the dates the chapter was written.
The Quran is claimed to have been revealed within 23 years over the life of a historical Muhammad. These factors, especially historical and Biblical stories are the best elements to determine the chronology [to as close as possible] of the chapters in the Quran.


Quote:
I am not certain what you are trying to say here. Everything a person, Muslim
and Non-Muslim, is their interaction with Allaah(swt) Just as everything we do
is our level of interaction with all of humanity.
Anything we have ever had contact with can not be seperated from our life. Everything we do, see, think or hear has an effect on our life even if it is a very miniscule effect.
My point is as mentioned above, the Quran interpretation of the Deen is an ineffective, crude and immature [religiously] as it rolled up the whole shebang of life as the Deen.
IF the Quran has interpreted the Deen properly and correctly to reality, then it will be the same as other religions, i.e.

Human Life = {universal religion + specifics of each religion} + other subsets of humanity.

If that is the case, then religion would be an independent, personal and private aspect of the human life whilst being interdependent at a very subtle level.

Quote:
True:
Islam like all things is a combination of individualism and collectivism.
Our du'a are our personal, individual prayers. Our worship is predominantly
individual as it is based upon our intentions, abilities and knowledge.
No one knows who is practicing Islam. We can only observe what they claim.
The way Islam dealt with individualism and collectivism is different from the other mature approaches to life. Islam is totalitarian ideology that want to monopolize and dictate every aspect of the human life of a Muslim. This was perhaps acceptable in ancient time but it is not effective in our modern era.
(note like most progressive things, Physics and Science were once lump up as Philosophy, but as human progresses, they are now split as independent with only a subtle link in the background)
As humanity progress 'religion' must be independent of other subsets of human life and kept private and personal to deal with the inherent existential dilemma [the eschatological and soteriological aspects of life]

The more mature approaches to human life treat religion as a separate, private and personal aspect of life [just like sex] while recognizing its interdependence with other subsets of life within a system.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My OP you are agreeing to was raised to counter your usual claim about being Muslim, i.e.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Being Muslim is very individualistic and is between the individual and Allaah(swt) alone.

So I hope you will not keep repeating 'being Muslim is very individualistic... '
Islam itself is in its totality as a way of life is both individualistic and collectivistic.

Other religions are different. The other religions recognized their religions are the individual affairs but the religion as a whole is firstly independent and then interdependent with other secular activities, such as politics, social, economics, etc.

Islam on the other hand consider every aspect of life, i.e. the way of life as Islamic, thus there is no separation between its individualism and collectivism.


You have been claiming every subset of humanity, i.e. religion, political, ethnicity, occupations, fashion, etc. is Islam and being Muslim. This is what Islam is claiming.

I agree every aspect of our life is what determines our individuality. However we should be able to separate the various subsets as independent, private and personal while recognizing they are interdependent with every other subsets of life. Note for example, the sex subset of life which all normal human beings will deal with on a private and personal basis. Humans also separate their working life from their family life in most cases. There is no extreme cognitive dissonance in this case and I believe this question do not arise.

Just like the sex life, one should separate one's religious life [especially in the modern era] from other subset of life [while maintaining interdependence] and keep the religious life private and personal.
If this separation is done in all the other religions in the modern, why should Islam be the exception. I know for sure why Islam do not separate its religious life from others is because it is an immature religion and very unfortunate that its doctrine is immutable and do not allow it to flex with time and progress of humanity.

This is why I came out with the following formulation

Human Life = {universal religion + specifics of each religion} + other subsets of humanity.

The religious aspects of human life should be personal and private whilst maintaining interdependence with other subsets of humanity to form the system of human life.

Islam is an immature system, perhaps effective in the ancient times, i.e. represented by

Human life = Islam = {universal religion + specifics of each religion} + other subsets of humanity.
where the religious aspects is not separated from the other subsets of humanity.

The Quranic view of the Deen is too narrow and thus misleading.

Deen-proper [not Quran's Deen] is like "energy" and its universal force which pervades every facet of a person's life, society, the World and the universe.
In this case we need to differentiate the Substance 'Energy' from and its various Form.
'Energy' or the 'Deen' proper is the common underlying substance of the whole shebang of life.
It is wrong to roll up the whole shebang of life into a ball [ending with a twisted knot], we have to delineate the separate subsets and dealt with them individually where necessary while at the same time understanding they are interdependent within a common underlying universal 'deen.'

This is how Deen-proper is interpreted as the common universal force is in Din, Daena, Dharma, Tao and the likes. The point that the Quranic-Deen insisting it is different from the rest is due to its immaturity and kindergarten level of understanding of the Deen-proper which focus more on its Form rather than on its Substance.


There are not correlation factors between the first verse and the dates the chapter was written.
The Quran is claimed to have been revealed within 23 years over the life of a historical Muhammad. These factors, especially historical and Biblical stories are the best elements to determine the chronology [to as close as possible] of the chapters in the Quran.


My point is as mentioned above, the Quran interpretation of the Deen is an ineffective, crude and immature [religiously] as it rolled up the whole shebang of life as the Deen.
IF the Quran has interpreted the Deen properly and correctly to reality, then it will be the same as other religions, i.e.

Human Life = {universal religion + specifics of each religion} + other subsets of humanity.

If that is the case, then religion would be an independent, personal and private aspect of the human life whilst being interdependent at a very subtle level.


The way Islam dealt with individualism and collectivism is different from the other mature approaches to life. Islam is totalitarian ideology that want to monopolize and dictate every aspect of the human life of a Muslim. This was perhaps acceptable in ancient time but it is not effective in our modern era.
(note like most progressive things, Physics and Science were once lump up as Philosophy, but as human progresses, they are now split as independent with only a subtle link in the background)
As humanity progress 'religion' must be independent of other subsets of human life and kept private and personal to deal with the inherent existential dilemma [the eschatological and soteriological aspects of life]

The more mature approaches to human life treat religion as a separate, private and personal aspect of life [just like sex] while recognizing its interdependence with other subsets of life within a system.
Islam is very individualistic. Yes, there are numerous groups that are considered Islamic, but the person's own strengths and limitations will be the factor that determines how they perform Islam.Every person that claims to be Muslim along with some who don't are accepted as being Muslim. the result being individuality in performing Islam.
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