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Old 11-22-2015, 10:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You cannot be that ignorant of your Quran when you decide to post the above bolded statement?


Here is what your Allah said.

9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.
There are many verses similar to the above that present the Muslims with a sense of false arrogance in thinking Islam and Muslims are superior over everyone and their religions.
lol
Brick layer trying to teach me Quantum Physics.
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You cannot be that ignorant of your Quran when you decide to post the above bolded statement?


Here is what your Allah said.
9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.
There are many verses similar to the above that present the Muslims with a sense of false arrogance in thinking Islam and Muslims are superior over everyone and their religions.
It is pointless for a Muslim to tell another person what religion to follow, for many reasons. A few of them being.

1. Allaah(swt) will guide those who desire to be guided.

2. It would be arrogant and arrogance is a sin.

3. A person must choose their religion through their own knowledge and free will.

4. Each individual must question all things and verify the truth of their choices

Also 9:33 like all ayyats is best read as a paragraph and not as stand alone command.

9:33 is contained in the paragraph that consists of ayyats 13-37 it was a time of war and the Muslims were somewhat distraught. They were highly outnumbered, many had left Islam and their were numerous traitors amongst them. The purpose of this paragraph was to encourage the Muslims and give them hope. It is best to read the paragraph as it is recited--without ayyat numbers.

(I am not a fan of the ayyats being numbered as that is not how the Qur'an was originally written, plus it is bidah an innovation. But that is my opinion, I also believe the Qur'an should be heard, not read.)

9:13-37 Pickthall translation without ayyat numbers--as it should be heard and how a Hafiz would read (Except the Hafiz would do son in Qur'anic Arabic with Tajweed) which is what would be heard in a Mosque.

Quote:
Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers.
Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.
Or deemed ye that ye would be left (in peace) when Allah yet knoweth not those of you who strive, choosing for familiar none save Allah and His messenger and the believers? Allah is Informed of what ye do.
It is not for the idolaters to tend Allah's sanctuaries, bearing witness against themselves of disbelief. As for such, their works are vain and in the Fire they will abide.
He only shall tend Allah's sanctuaries who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due and feareth none save Allah. For such (only) is it possible that they can be of the rightly guided.
Count ye the slaking of a pilgrim's thirst and tendance of the Inviolable Place of Worship as (equal to the worth of him) who believeth in Allah and the Last Day, and striveth in the way of Allah? They are not equal in the sight of Allah. Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant. -
Their Lord giveth them good tidings of mercy from Him, and acceptance, and Gardens where enduring pleasure will be theirs;
There they will abide for ever. Lo! with Allah there is immense reward.
O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers. -
Say: If your fathers, and your sons, and your brethren, and your wives, and your tribe, and the wealth ye have acquired, and merchandise for which ye fear that there will be no sale, and dwellings ye desire are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving in His way: then wait till Allah bringeth His command to pass. Allah guideth not wrong doing folk.
Allah hath given you victory on many fields and on the day of Huneyn, when ye exulted in your multitude but it availed you naught, and the earth, vast as it is, was straitened for you; then ye turned back in flight;
Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
He it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
O ye, who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom.
On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard.
Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Postponement (of a sacred month) is only an excess of disbelief whereby those who disbelieve are misled, they allow it one year and forbid it (another) year, that they may make up the number of the months which Allah hath hallowed, so that they allow that which Allah hath forbidden. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming unto them. Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sharia came about because the Qur'an is not an instruction manual. It requires the use of reason and thinking. The Madhabs (sharia) developed as a means of relating concepts of order to the physical world.

there are conditions under which it is permissible to do things not covered in the Qur'an. For example it would be permissible to drink alcohol if it was the only way to sustain life. For instance if one was on a life raft in the ocean and the only fluid on the raft was wine. It is permissible to to drink the least amount that will sustain your life. Same goes if one were starving and the only available food was pork. It is permissible to eat the smallest amount needed to stay alive.

the Qur'an is not a hard and fast book of do and don't. It is an error to see every Ayyat as being an absolute command.
The basic principle and Law of Islam is that no one can add, change and remove the contents of what is the Quran-MGA-610.
Are you implying you and Muslims can go against Allah's will?


As I have mentioned I do not support the Quranist's views totally. I believe the Hadiths, Sira and WHATEVER one can think of can be used as a guide, but whatever is the invention of man cannot override the doctrines stipulated in the Quran-MGA-610.


For examples, stoning to death for adultery, Niqab and Burga are not rules of Islam per se as they are not stipulated in the Quran. While one can wear the Niqab, there can be no Islam Law that make the niqab as compulsory with penalties for non-compliance.
However if Muslims were to cast terror upon non-Muslims as interpreted per the Quran, that is wajib and will earn merit points for Judgment Day.


As for exceptions and non-compliances to the Quran, there are already provisions in the Quran itself that provide for unavoidable non-compliances. The rule for unavoidable non-compliances in life or death situation and other justifiable situation is a Muslim must repent immediately and should not repeat it intentionally without proper justifications.


What is most critical with the Quran, if one is a Muslim, is the Quran is the sole source of Allah's words and perfected reminder and guide.
I did not say all the Ayyat are absolute commands. The Ayyat are absolute [as from Allah thus not conditional] but they can be guidelines, advice, commands, doctrines and principles.


The Hadiths [thus the Sharia] cannot be divine doctrines, they are at best guides and ultimately must conform to the Quran-MGA-610 and nothing else.
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is pointless for a Muslim to tell another person what religion to follow, for many reasons. A few of them being.

1. Allaah(swt) will guide those who desire to be guided.

2. It would be arrogant and arrogance is a sin.

3. A person must choose their religion through their own knowledge and free will.

4. Each individual must question all things and verify the truth of their choices

Also 9:33 like all ayyats is best read as a paragraph and not as stand alone command.

9:33 is contained in the paragraph that consists of ayyats 13-37 it was a time of war and the Muslims were somewhat distraught. They were highly outnumbered, many had left Islam and their were numerous traitors amongst them. The purpose of this paragraph was to encourage the Muslims and give them hope. It is best to read the paragraph as it is recited--without ayyat numbers.

(I am not a fan of the ayyats being numbered as that is not how the Qur'an was originally written, plus it is bidah an innovation. But that is my opinion, I also believe the Qur'an should be heard, not read.)

9:13-37 Pickthall translation without ayyat numbers--as it should be heard and how a Hafiz would read (Except the Hafiz would do son in Qur'anic Arabic with Tajweed) which is what would be heard in a Mosque.
There is nothing wrong for a Muslim to quote the Quran Verbatim which is the words of Allah.
9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.


Note my point on the unreliability [secondary importance] of history and stories surrounding the verses.
What is critical is the universal principles that is to be extracted from the verses and the context.


Are you saying Allah only meant 'Islam is to prevail over all religions' ONLY in that circumstances?
This cannot be.


9:33 as spoken by Allah can be taken as a universal principle by all Muslims regardless of the situation, time and other conditions. As the word of Allah, it can appear anywhere in the Quran and it will be valid as a permanent doctrine of Islam.
Do your disagree with this?
There is no way you can disagree with my point re 9:33.
Therefore your attempt to explain with excuses of historical context is pointless.


Btw, the numbering of the verses is to facilitate effective communication and discussion. This is a mark of intelligence.
If you ignore this, you are a bad communicator and thus hindering the progress of humanity.
I had to read your post above a few times to find where is 9:33, thus wasting my time.
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Old 11-22-2015, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
lol
Brick layer trying to teach me Quantum Physics.
It is so easy to make such hand waving statements. Where is your support?


Note another set of comparisons by Allah [actually Muhammad] amongst the many.

3:110. Ye [Muslims] are the best community [Nation-ommatin -Ummat] that hath been raised up for mankind.


Compared to non-Muslims


98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst of created beings.
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Old 11-23-2015, 02:58 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85 View Post
If it upsets you that someone disagrees, then so be it.
I do not recall being upset by anyone having differing opinions to me. But I do move to ask people what the basis for their opinion is when they express one. So I have merely asked does your claim have any actual basis. Apparently it does not.

Which itself is an answer, and the one I actually expected from the outset. And it is a good thing when unsubstantiated memes pop up in this fashion, that we confront them and show them to be baseless. So now anyone on this thread who was exposed to your meme, will recall also being exposed to the fact you had zero basis for it. That is how memes die.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:37 AM
 
144 posts, read 108,016 times
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I said that i wish people to be muslims for their own good but i precise : not to force them.
I think that everyone wish the best for the others, and i'm sure that's also why some people like the Jehova's witness for exemple knock at your door.
It's impossible to force anyone to believe as only Allah guide people.


88.21-22 So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller.

10.99 And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?

50.45 We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant. But remind by the Qur'an whoever fears My threat.

12.103-104 And though thou try much, most men will not believe. Thou askest them no fee for it. It is naught else than a reminder unto the peoples.

4.80
Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them.

2.272
The guiding of them is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will.

6.35
And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if thou canst, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder unto the sky that thou mayst bring unto them a portent (to convince them all)! - If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So be not thou among the foolish ones.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is nothing wrong for a Muslim to quote the Quran Verbatim which is the words of Allah.
9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.


Note my point on the unreliability [secondary importance] of history and stories surrounding the verses.
What is critical is the universal principles that is to be extracted from the verses and the context.


Are you saying Allah only meant 'Islam is to prevail over all religions' ONLY in that circumstances?
This cannot be.


9:33 as spoken by Allah can be taken as a universal principle by all Muslims regardless of the situation, time and other conditions. As the word of Allah, it can appear anywhere in the Quran and it will be valid as a permanent doctrine of Islam.
Do your disagree with this?
There is no way you can disagree with my point re 9:33.
Therefore your attempt to explain with excuses of historical context is pointless.


Btw, the numbering of the verses is to facilitate effective communication and discussion. This is a mark of intelligence.
If you ignore this, you are a bad communicator and thus hindering the progress of humanity.
I had to read your post above a few times to find where is 9:33, thus wasting my time.
The Qur'an was revealed orally, in discourses, not line by line. 9:13-37 was reveled as a single discourse when recited in Arabic it is recited as a single sentence with no pause. To read an ayyat seperated from the full discourse is like quoting a single word from a sentence.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:20 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85 View Post
It's very important for you to "be right".
Given that is the exact opposite of what I actually said, it appears you merely have a record to play and you will insist on playing it, regardless of anything I have actually said. I also have no idea to what "insults" you refer. I offered none, so where you have managed to find them can only be in your own imagination.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:30 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I am a Muslim, and I 100% agree.
We all have intelligence. If we wanted to find God or Religion we will do our own research and find our own answers.

No need of a person A telling person B to follow a certain faith or my faith is better than yours.

Let everyone make their own choices based on free will. Live and let live.
Do you think allah is evil for endlessly performing horrible torture on non-believers?

Do you think that Muhammed was evil for slaughtering people who would not convert to Islam?

Quran 48:13
And whoever has not believed in Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, We have prepared for the disbelievers a Blaze.
(and hundreds of other verses like it)

Quran 22:10-22
These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for [striking] them are maces of iron. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
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