U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-23-2015, 12:33 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,092,389 times
Reputation: 4527

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an was revealed orally, in discourses, not line by line. 9:13-37 was reveled as a single discourse when recited in Arabic it is recited as a single sentence with no pause. To read an ayyat seperated from the full discourse is like quoting a single word from a sentence.
Same question I have asked to Christians, Mormons and Scientologists.

What proof, other than just taking the word of whoever you think was the person things were 'revealed to', do you have that these events actually occurred?

No witnesses were with Mohammed up in the cave, right? So how do you know it was not an illusion, a mental illness, or just plain lying to control a population?

There is no proof that I am aware of. Only faith. That doesn't make it the truth, it only makes it a belief. How is that different from believing in Leprechauns, Fairies or Santa?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-23-2015, 05:59 PM
 
4,419 posts, read 1,646,121 times
Reputation: 1543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is so easy to make such hand waving statements. Where is your support?


Note another set of comparisons by Allah [actually Muhammad] amongst the many.

3:110. Ye [Muslims] are the best community [Nation-ommatin -Ummat] that hath been raised up for mankind.


Compared to non-Muslims


98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst of created beings.
How would a brick layer understand the supporting details of a Quantum Physics related discussion? I will consult you to, know and discuss the supporting details if and when I desire to know how to lay bricks. For now, I am good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-23-2015, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
How would a brick layer understand the supporting details of a Quantum Physics related discussion? I will consult you to, know and discuss the supporting details if and when I desire to know how to lay bricks. For now, I am good.
If any one is good in Quantum Physics, one should have a PhD -Quantum Physics from an accredited University or some recognitions some where to show.


When you claimed you have knowledge of Islam [analogical to Quantum Physics] where is your accreditation for Islamic Studies to show at least you are reasonably good with Islam?


As I had said, any toilet janitor [of lowest IQ] can make the same claim you are making.


I do not claim to be an expert on Islam but for the amount of time I have put in I dare claim I have a reasonably good understanding of Islam and I always support my views from the original sources [albeit translated].

Come on, don't get silly, just show your stuffs. If you are not interested, just shut up and don't make those silly comparisons to make yourself look more silly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-23-2015, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Same question I have asked to Christians, Mormons and Scientologists.

What proof, other than just taking the word of whoever you think was the person things were 'revealed to', do you have that these events actually occurred?

No witnesses were with Mohammed up in the cave, right? So how do you know it was not an illusion, a mental illness, or just plain lying to control a population?

There is no proof that I am aware of. Only faith. That doesn't make it the truth, it only makes it a belief. How is that different from believing in Leprechauns, Fairies or Santa?
Actualiy only the first few revelations took place in the cave.
and if memory serves me correctly only one was included in the Qur'an.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-23-2015, 10:56 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,092,389 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Actualiy only the first few revelations took place in the cave.
and if memory serves me correctly only one was included in the Qur'an.
As I said, no witnesses. Just his say so.

In today's world we would all question that person's mental stability, right? What makes this different?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
As I said, no witnesses. Just his say so.

In today's world we would all question that person's mental stability, right? What makes this different?
The revelations in the cave where primarily personal to Muhammad(swt) that was when he was told he was a Prophet. I believe only a few lines of Surah 74 are the only cave revelations that appear in the Qur'an

The revelations in the Qur'an where revealed when he was in Public speaking. Often he would have a revelation while speaking to an audience Which may be why he was believed. What Muhammad(saws) was saying ran counter to Arabic culture and the Arabic religions. People would have not believed him if they believed those were his words.

For witnesses who were convinced there were Angels speaking to Muhammad(swt) there are Ahadith to that effect for example:

4. The lengthy hadeeth about Jibreel, when he came in the form of a man, a stranger, and sat down with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asked him about Islam, Eemaan (faith) and Ihsaan (goodness, perfection). The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) answered his questions, knowing that he was Jibreel. When he had finished asking his questions and had gone away, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told his companions that this was Jibreel, who had come to teach them their religion. See Saheeh al-Bukhaari, no. 48; Muslim, no. 9.
A non-Muslim researcher is asking about the proof that Jibreel spoke to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) - islamqa.info

There are 154 Ahadith in which witness are convinced Angels were speaking to Muhammad(saws)
Keep in mind that many of the Surat in the Qur'an were revealed at a time the people had not yet accepted Islam and many of the witnesses (Hadith writers) were skeptics. Reading the eyewitness accounts (ahadith) it is quite clear the populace was convinced Angels were speaking to Muhammad(saws) Gabriel was just one and his primary message was in the cave and that was a personal Message informing Muhammad(saws) that he was a Prophet.

Nearly all if not all of the Surah were revealed while Muhammad(saws) was in the presence of a crowd.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 11:32 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,092,389 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The revelations in the cave where primarily personal to Muhammad(swt) that was when he was told he was a Prophet. I believe only a few lines of Surah 74 are the only cave revelations that appear in the Qur'an

The revelations in the Qur'an where revealed when he was in Public speaking. Often he would have a revelation while speaking to an audience Which may be why he was believed. What Muhammad(saws) was saying ran counter to Arabic culture and the Arabic religions. People would have not believed him if they believed those were his words.

For witnesses who were convinced there were Angels speaking to Muhammad(swt) there are Ahadith to that effect for example:

4. The lengthy hadeeth about Jibreel, when he came in the form of a man, a stranger, and sat down with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asked him about Islam, Eemaan (faith) and Ihsaan (goodness, perfection). The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) answered his questions, knowing that he was Jibreel. When he had finished asking his questions and had gone away, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told his companions that this was Jibreel, who had come to teach them their religion. See Saheeh al-Bukhaari, no. 48; Muslim, no. 9.
A non-Muslim researcher is asking about the proof that Jibreel spoke to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) - islamqa.info

There are 154 Ahadith in which witness are convinced Angels were speaking to Muhammad(saws)
Keep in mind that many of the Surat in the Qur'an were revealed at a time the people had not yet accepted Islam and many of the witnesses (Hadith writers) were skeptics. Reading the eyewitness accounts (ahadith) it is quite clear the populace was convinced Angels were speaking to Muhammad(saws) Gabriel was just one and his primary message was in the cave and that was a personal Message informing Muhammad(saws) that he was a Prophet.

Nearly all if not all of the Surah were revealed while Muhammad(saws) was in the presence of a crowd.
Can't find the citation right now, but is it not true that much of what Mohammed described in the Koran is in fact indigenous to tribes in today's Yemen, which he knew as a result of his family connections there? Specifically I am thinking of a story that points to a description of a river that only exists in Yemen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Can't find the citation right now, but is it not true that much of what Mohammed described in the Koran is in fact indigenous to tribes in today's Yemen, which he knew as a result of his family connections there? Specifically I am thinking of a story that points to a description of a river that only exists in Yemen.
Well Muhammad(saws) never claimed the Qur'an said anything that was not already common knowledge. It was not a new revelation.

I am not familiar with any story in the Qur'an or ahadith that relate to a river that exists only in Yemen. I am not saying that is not true, I am simply saying I have not come across it. I am open to the idea it could be true.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 12:04 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,092,389 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Well Muhammad(saws) never claimed the Qur'an said anything that was not already common knowledge. It was not a new revelation.

I am not familiar with any story in the Qur'an or ahadith that relate to a river that exists only in Yemen. I am not saying that is not true, I am simply saying I have not come across it. I am open to the idea it could be true.
Fair enough, but it does then mean that the so called revelations were only a repeat of beliefs already extant in that area of Yemen. No different than much of what the Abrahamic religions adapted from extant Zoroastrian, Hellenic and Egyptian religions. Same stories, packaged differently.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Fair enough, but it does then mean that the so called revelations were only a repeat of beliefs already extant in that area of Yemen. No different than much of what the Abrahamic religions adapted from extant Zoroastrian, Hellenic and Egyptian religions. Same stories, packaged differently.
True and that is stated in both the Qur'an and Ahadith. You can call the Qur'an a readers digest condensed version of all previous revelation. Revealed one last time because in the past we kept messing it up. It is our last chance to get it right and not mess up again.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top