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Old 11-02-2015, 03:17 PM
 
Location: southern california
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Contrary to populary belief friendships with non-Muslims are not discourged. that is a fallacy highly promoted by the anti-Islam sites.

The word Saddiq (friend) does not even appear in the Qur'an. the word translated as friend in many translations is Wali.

While a Wali should be a friend, a wali is a person's mentor, leader, protector, religious guide. Wali also translates as Governor, parent or any high ranking government official.

Some of Muhammad's friends (Saddiq) were not Muslims.
Quran 5:51 clearly stated don't befriend Christians and Jews

TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Befriending Christians and Jews
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Old 11-02-2015, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Quran 5:51 clearly stated don't befriend Christians and Jews

TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Befriending Christians and Jews
It clearly states:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ (5:51)

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tattakhithoo alyahooda waalnnasara awliyaa baAAduhum awliyao baAAdin waman yatawallahum minkum fainnahu minhum inna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

The words Saddiq (friend), or Sadaga (Friendship) or iiqamat ealaqat sadaqa (Befriend) do not appear in there. Instead we have the word awliyaa which is the plural of Wali which as I explained before refers to a leader, particullary a religious leader, or a Religious mentor or a protector or a parent. It is also a title used for a governor or other high government official

It is true some translators have followed Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall down the primrose path.and make the same error of translating wali as friend.

The more modern Translators are avoiding that error, but it is understandable how Ali made that error as he was more familiar with Victorian era English and at that time the word friend had a much deeper meaning that it has today.

In this case I find the more modern translators to be the most accurate. But in any event Friend and friendship were very poor translations.

Here is Asad's translation,

O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide such evildoers. - 5:51 (Asad)

but that is not fully correct as he is translating althalimeena as evildoers a better translation is " unjust" or " unfair".

For that part Yusuf Ali gives a better translation, but he is in error translating wali as friend and friendship

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. - 5:51 (Y. Ali)


.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:33 PM
 
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Well, I think you are taking this out of context!

Let's look at 5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Why would allah want Muslims befriending the defiantly disobedient??

5:49
And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

Not exactly a call to friendship!!

5:10
They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.

Why would allah want Muslims to be buddies with people he intends to torture endlessly in hellfire?


5:14
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

5:36
Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment

5_37 They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.

I'm thinking this does not encourage friendship.

Let's look at this rationally. Muhammed wrote the Quran and there is no allah, just Muhammed. Muhammed needs followers to carry out his scam of Islam so he does not want his followers befriending non-Muslims and hearing what non-Muslims have to say.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Well, I think you are taking this out of context!

Let's look at 5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Why would allah want Muslims befriending the defiantly disobedient??

5:49
And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

Not exactly a call to friendship!!

5:10
They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.

Why would allah want Muslims to be buddies with people he intends to torture endlessly in hellfire?


5:14
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

5:36
Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment

5_37 They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.

I'm thinking this does not encourage friendship.

Let's look at this rationally. Muhammed wrote the Quran and there is no allah, just Muhammed. Muhammed needs followers to carry out his scam of Islam so he does not want his followers befriending non-Muslims and hearing what non-Muslims have to say.
Not all non-Muslims are evil. In fact many perhaps the majority are very good people. We are not forbidden to have them as friends. As to who will go to hell, we do not know. that is known only to Allaah(swt) it is not our place to judge or to make assumptions about how Allaah(swt) will judge.

The warnings are for us to know what activities we personally should avoid, not telling us how to judge others.
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:21 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,667 posts, read 74,628,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Well, I think you are taking this out of context!

Let's look at 5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Why would allah want Muslims befriending the defiantly disobedient??

5:49
And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

Not exactly a call to friendship!!

5:10
They who disbelieve and deny our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.

Why would allah want Muslims to be buddies with people he intends to torture endlessly in hellfire?


5:14
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

5:36
Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment

5_37 They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.

I'm thinking this does not encourage friendship.

Let's look at this rationally. Muhammed wrote the Quran and there is no allah, just Muhammed. Muhammed needs followers to carry out his scam of Islam so he does not want his followers befriending non-Muslims and hearing what non-Muslims have to say.
Why is it that every single Quran quote I have provided by world class translation scholars has been denounced as either a translation error or taken out of context
For those who wish to understand Islam how is this helpful????
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:44 PM
 
2,826 posts, read 1,866,142 times
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God no. Are you kidding?

What Muslims want to do in their own countries is fine. I don't care. But I would rather they not try to convert me.

We have alot of problems as a country. So do they. It's not the place for people to tell each other how to live. We can only pray that they come to understanding of our life, and vice versa. That is the best we can hope for, that our problems get fixed.

Quote:
I wish there were NO Muslims. After reading the Quran and hadiths and seeing what is happening in Europe and other places around the world and studying history....after researching Shariah Law and comparing Islam to my own values of rationality, productivity, justice, individual rights, NON-INITIATION OF FORCE!!!!, freedom, self-esteem, independence of mind, integrity and honesty.....I find Islam does not support ANY of my moral values - quite the contrary, Islam is against everything I hold as moral. After receiving all sorts of threats, including death threats, for simply speaking the TRUTH about Islam, I realize what a threat Islam is to people who love truth and freedom.
And this is the problem of Islam. However, what we resist, persists. I can only pray that (ahem) people like Woodrow LI wake up, and realize Islam isn't hot ****, and maybe just maybe some of the Islamic followers take a stand against what the more crazed Muslim leaders tell them to do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRwzehrKmcs

This. People in the wake of fundamentalism and Islam can fight against it, but all that violence does is make more evil. You become as bad as what you fight against (witch hunts were actually an attempt to investigate non-Christians, since Spain was being invaded, and we know how that turned out).
What really needs to happen is more people like Vader, to become disillusioned, and displace the thugs in their faith to make things right.
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:52 PM
 
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"Why is it that every single Quran quote I have provided by world class translation scholars has been denounced as either a translation error or taken out of context"

Well, the truth is that some verses ARE taken out of context BY BOTH SIDES. (Knowledge is an organization or integration of interconnected elements, each relevant to the others . . . Knowledge is not a mosaic of independent pieces each of which stands apart from the rest.)

You really do have to read the surrounding verses to see if there is a context that causes the verse to hold a meaning that was explained in another verse. But, both sides are guilty of ignoring this context for various reasons. One of the reasons is dishonesty. Another reason is that it is time consuming to dig through a mess of verses. Another reason is that the Quran is badly written, has many contradictions and is confusing. Another reason is that someone finds a single verse somewhere and uses that verse without researching.

In my years of experience on discussion forums, Muslims started the 'out of context' excuse and use it both honestly and dishonestly. The only way to find out the truth is to read surrounding verses and hope they make sense.

"For those who wish to understand Islam how is this helpful????"

It is helpful because it gets you to read surrounding verses and learn the context. If there is a context, it is very important to learn that context.
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Old 11-03-2015, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Why is it that every single Quran quote I have provided by world class translation scholars has been denounced as either a translation error or taken out of context
For those who wish to understand Islam how is this helpful????
It has only been in the late 1800s and early 1900s that there has been a sincere effort to produce English translations of the Qur'an in English. French translations are way more advanced and more accurate. Of course that is no help if you don't speak French.

But the thing to keep in mind is we do not consider any translation to be the Qur'an and do not even call them such. They are usualled called things like "Interpretations of the Noble Qur'an"

As for things being taken out of context, many non-Muslims are under the impression that every line in the Qur'an is a complete thought or a command.

Also English translations attempt to make the Surat look like chapters and the ayyats look like commands. Each Surat needs to be read as if it is a complete book in itself. Actually the Qur'an is best thought of as being 38 books each written 3 times each with a different perspective. For each Surah you will find 2 companion surat. the three making One written specifically for non-Muslims, One for those seeking Islam and One for Muslims.
To be understood in context each surat must be read as a full revelation and as a single message. It is a bit difficult in English as it is very choppy in English. but except for the first and last ayyat of every surat each ayyat is a a part of and dependent upon the ayyats thae preceed and follow it. An Imam when quoting the Qur'an is obligated to quote either the entire surah in the case of the short ones or a minimum of 9 consecutive lines, lines. An ayyat quoted alone is almost always given a meaning not in context with the Surah. This seems to be a very common practice of the anti-Islam sites.

Another way of looking at it is to understand the entire Qur'an is contained in 2 very short Surat al-Fatihah and al-Ikhlas. to under stand them is to understand the Qur'an. Every other Surah relates to those 2 Surat. If a person understands those they understand the entire message of the Qur'an.

Quote:
1. Surah Al-Fatihah
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger , nor of those who went astray

112. Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity)
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.
2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
If one keeps each ayyat in relation to those 2 surat, they will be reading in context.




As most Arabic words have no English equivalent it is quite difficult to attempt word for word translations. It is far better to read several interpretations and gather a bit of insight. However for those who choose to read translations I suggest they read and compare at least 3 different translation and between them they may find a fairly accurate translation.

Personally I am very disappointed in every Englishtranslation and do not use them for my personal usage. Fortunately I do read Arabic fairly well.

However, if one is simply trying to learn what most Muslims believe, the Qur'an is not a good source. Most of us find very little actual commands in it. Nearly everything is basically specific events or a reason why we should perform Islam.

The Qur'an does not tell how to perform Islam. The best way to learn about Islam is to ask a Muslim. the first thing you will find is we are very individual and we all share very little in regards to beliefs and practices. the only things I find all Muslims agree upon is we believe there is only one God(swt) who has no equals, partners or progeny and only He is to be worshiped. Most of us also agree we are to perform the 5 pillars of Islam. Outside of that we do not agree much as to what Islam is.
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:49 PM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,122,447 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As for things being taken out of context, many non-Muslims are under the impression that every line in the Qur'an is a complete thought or a command.
This statement confuses me because I am one of those non-Muslims who are under that impression, because ... Allah spoke to Gabrielle who spoke to Mohammed. Did Allah's words get confused in retelling the story?

El Nox
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:02 PM
 
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"Did Allah's words get confused in retelling the story?"

Well, to take the ENTIRE Quran in context means knowing that Muhammed, a really evil and perverted man, invented allah so he, Muhammed, could be a 'prophet' and get away with doing a lot of evil things. THAT is the FULL context.

The Quran is a mess. It is not in chronological order. It is full of repetition and contradictions. It's very poorly written. On top of that is the issue of abrogation, where the older verses are wiped out by newer verses. To try to make it rational is impossible.

Anyways, let me give you a couple examples of context dropping when it comes to the Quran.

Example one shows a very dishonest dropping of context by Muslims. Muslims claim that this verse proves that Muslims are commanded by Allah never to kill:
“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

Sounds great, right? Except that this is how the verse REALLY reads:
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

So, this was not a message from allah to Muslims, but a threat towards the Jews! And, if someone is "spreading mischief", 'allah' (Muhammed) says he can be killed. hummmmm

So, Muslims have extracted a critical context...that this verse was directed towards the Jews, not Muslims, and that Muslims can slaughter people for doing 'mischief', per 'allah'. There's more context to be seen if you read the verses before and after this verse.

Another example (and to be fair and balanced I will use one that non-Muslims use against Muslims) is this:
2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing.

OK, let's look at the full verse:
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

So it seems that this means killing only in self defense. But wait, there is more! The next two verses:

And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

It does get confusing. If Muhammed starts pushing Islam on people who don't want to hear him and try to run him out of town (oppressors), is that grounds to slaughter them? What does "if they cease" mean? Cease refusing to submit to allah?

See, it gets tricky. Muhammed did not do a very good job of writing the Quran.
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