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Old 11-03-2015, 07:15 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Only answering the last part.

The laws in Saudi are based upon the al-Saud Monarchy and Wahhabism. It is not recognized as Sharia criminal law no matter what they call it.



The other nations also are using their own concepts of sharia. there is no nation that actually uses Sharia criminal law although most Islamic Nations do use Sharia Civil Laws.

So you're OK with the concept that a woman's testimony is only worth half of a man's?
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Did Allah's words get confused in retelling the story?"

Well, to take the ENTIRE Quran in context means knowing that Muhammed, a really evil and perverted man, invented allah so he, Muhammed, could be a 'prophet' and get away with doing a lot of evil things. THAT is the FULL context.

The Quran is a mess. It is not in chronological order. It is full of repetition and contradictions. It's very poorly written. On top of that is the issue of abrogation, where the older verses are wiped out by newer verses. To try to make it rational is impossible.

Anyways, let me give you a couple examples of context dropping when it comes to the Quran.

Example one shows a very dishonest dropping of context by Muslims. Muslims claim that this verse proves that Muslims are commanded by Allah never to kill:
“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

Sounds great, right? Except that this is how the verse REALLY reads:
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

So, this was not a message from allah to Muslims, but a threat towards the Jews! And, if someone is "spreading mischief", 'allah' (Muhammed) says he can be killed. hummmmm

So, Muslims have extracted a critical context...that this verse was directed towards the Jews, not Muslims, and that Muslims can slaughter people for doing 'mischief', per 'allah'. There's more context to be seen if you read the verses before and after this verse.

Another example (and to be fair and balanced I will use one that non-Muslims use against Muslims) is this:
2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing.

OK, let's look at the full verse:
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

So it seems that this means killing only in self defense. But wait, there is more! The next two verses:

And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

It does get confusing. If Muhammed starts pushing Islam on people who don't want to hear him and try to run him out of town (oppressors), is that grounds to slaughter them? What does "if they cease" mean? Cease refusing to submit to allah?

See, it gets tricky. Muhammed did not do a very good job of writing the Quran.
Not confusing nor deceitful if you understand we are to obey all the Prophet(PBUT)s not just Muhammad. The Qur'an is not a new Message. There is nothing original in it. The message sent to the Jews, Sabeeans, Christians and possibly others apply to all people. The Qur'an did not do away wirth the revelations given to the Jews.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
So you're OK with the concept that a woman's testimony is only worth half of a man's?
If it is used in accord with any of the 4 madhabs. The purpose is to protect women and make it virtually impossible for a woman to be forced or coerced to give a false testimony. A brutal man might be able to force his wife, Daughter, Mother Aunt etc to give false testimony to protect him from conviction of a crime, but it is doubtful he could get 2 women to do so and each give the exact same testimony..

While there are several nations that claim to use Sharian, they are not doing so in accordance with one of the 4 madhabs and calling it Sharia. True Sharia outside of Civil laws does not exist in any nation and if they are treating women as second class citizens they are abusing their authority.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:52 PM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,125,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If it is used in accord with any of the 4 madhabs. The purpose is to protect women and make it virtually impossible for a woman to be forced or coerced to give a false testimony. A brutal man might be able to force his wife, Daughter, Mother Aunt etc to give false testimony to protect him from conviction of a crime, but it is doubtful he could get 2 women to do so and each give the exact same testimony...
Very interesting ... I never thought of it that way. Like cupper, I always thought it denigrated women. However, I am still confused about the (and again I go on memory and not able to cite the exact reference) ... "if a man's wife does not obey him, he should beat her". My alzheimers ridden brain wants to say that is found in the fourth sutra and I believe either the 38th or 138th verse (for want of the correct description or the individual sentences).

El Nox
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:59 PM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,125,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not confusing nor deceitful if you understand we are to obey all the Prophet(PBUT)s not just Muhammad. The Qur'an is not a new Message. There is nothing original in it. The message sent to the Jews, Sabeeans, Christians and possibly others apply to all people. The Qur'an did not do away wirth the revelations given to the Jews.
WOW. Recently there was some text found in the Brit Museum which alluded to written texts prior to the Qur'an which parallel it. Your comment seems to confirm that report. Now, should I start a different topic about the subject since this appears to be far off the topic of this thread?

El Nox
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:50 AM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,660,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
WOW. Recently there was some text found in the Brit Museum which alluded to written texts prior to the Qur'an which parallel it. Your comment seems to confirm that report. Now, should I start a different topic about the subject since this appears to be far off the topic of this thread?

El Nox
As per Islamic faith, the Quranic message of monotheism is the same as it was revealed in Torah, Bible and what was revealed to other prophets of Allah. There is indeed nothing new in it.
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:54 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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I wish everyone was Atheist so we could move past this religion bull crap and get on with our lives
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:15 AM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,660,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms View Post
I wish everyone was Atheist so we could move past this religion bull crap and get on with our lives
So what would be the purpose of life?

In general, people are born, go to school, find a job, get married, have kids and die.

The cycle continues on and on. Is that all what there is to life?

Are you really interested in this ? I mean, what do you add to this cycle?
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Very interesting ... I never thought of it that way. Like cupper, I always thought it denigrated women. However, I am still confused about the (and again I go on memory and not able to cite the exact reference) ... "if a man's wife does not obey him, he should beat her". My alzheimers ridden brain wants to say that is found in the fourth sutra and I believe either the 38th or 138th verse (for want of the correct description or the individual sentences).

El Nox
Another favorite quote of the Anti-Islam sites.

I think that to fully understand this one needs to understand the Arab people in the pre-Islamic years. They were very brutal and quite vicious. Wives were often beat to death.

Even the Christians and jews in the region were not as you see today. They were mostly violent sects that were exiled from their homelands for heresy and driven into the desert. Very violent times with extremely violent people.

One also needs to look at similar ayyats from other Surah and it helps to grasp the context of what was going on in that era and the thoughts of the people.
Surat 38 was addressed to the Jews of Mecca. Who had believed that during his trials Job took an oath to beat his wife. Later he found out he should not have and Allaah(swt) gave him an out in which he could fulfill his oath without Harming his wife. Surah 4 was revealed to the Muslims of Medinah that had already heard much of the Qur'an. It is not permission to beat their wives, but a subtle way of prohibiting them to do so.

Surah
وَخُذْ بِيَدِكَ ضِغْثًا فَاضْرِب بِّهِ وَلَا تَحْنَثْ إِنَّا وَجَدْنَاهُ صَابِرًا نِعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ (38:44)

Wakhuth biyadika dighthan faidrib bihi wala tahnath inna wajadnahu sabiran niAAma alAAabdu innahu awwabun

[And finally We told him:] “Now take in thy hand a small bunch of grass, and strike therewith, and thou wilt not break thine oath!” [41] for, verily, We found him full of patience in adversity: how excellent a servant [of Ours], who, behold, would always turn unto Us! - 38:44 (Asad)

"And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)! - 38:44 (Y. Ali)

And (it was said unto him): Take in thine hand a branch and smite therewith, and break not twine oath. Lo! We found him steadfast, how excellent a slave! Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (to his Lord). - 38:44 (Picktall)



Which brings us to:
4:34which actually carries a similar message from a different perspective. Beating women was a ver integral part of Arab culture as owas drinking. It took several steps to bring and end to both. Surahs 4 and 38 were part of the steps in the prohibition of beating women. (Chronologically surah 38 was revealed before surah 4. ) If you read 4:34 carefully you will find a man is not to beat his wife in anger. Then there is a touch of satire where it is pointed out if he does beat her he can can inflict any pain or damage. This is basically inferred in the phrase waidriboohunna.
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (4:34)

Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisai bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fain ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran

MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, [42] and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the right*eous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guar*ded. [43] And as for those women whose ill-will [44] you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; [45] and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great! - 4:34 (Asad)

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). - 4:34 (Y. Ali)

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. - 4:34 (Picktall)
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:15 AM
 
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"So what would be the purpose of life?"

That's easy. Happiness.

"In general, people are born, go to school, find a job, get married, have kids and die."

And there is certainly much happiness living that life. Loving and accomplishing and learning and experiencing music and art and traveling and spending time with friends and doing hobbies. I guess your life is not very happy so you have to live for death, but my life is very happy.

"The cycle continues on and on. Is that all what there is to life?"

Yes. Isn't that enough, as Tim Minchin said:

"Isn't this enough?

Just this world?

Just this beautiful, complex
Wonderfully unfathomable, NATURAL world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?"


I love my life so much. On my worst day, I was so happy to be alive. I don't need to invent those cheap, man-made myths and monsters in the sky. I feel so sorry for those people that do have to create them and live for them. I am sickened by the love of death that Muslims cling to in some kind of desperation while making joy here on earth impossible. Islam is set on destruction and sacrificing your precious life to an imaginary monster, not accomplishment and using your mind’s fullest power.

I have asked many Muslims what happiness is...what they think is the root of happiness. Not one could answer. They could not introspect and identify the root of happiness. How sad is that?
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