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Old 11-04-2015, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"So what would be the purpose of life?"

That's easy. Happiness.

"In general, people are born, go to school, find a job, get married, have kids and die."

And there is certainly much happiness living that life. Loving and accomplishing and learning and experiencing music and art and traveling and spending time with friends and doing hobbies. I guess your life is not very happy so you have to live for death, but my life is very happy.

"The cycle continues on and on. Is that all what there is to life?"

Yes. Isn't that enough, as Tim Minchin said:

"Isn't this enough?

Just this world?

Just this beautiful, complex
Wonderfully unfathomable, NATURAL world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?"


I love my life so much. On my worst day, I was so happy to be alive. I don't need to invent those cheap, man-made myths and monsters in the sky. I feel so sorry for those people that do have to create them and live for them. I am sickened by the love of death that Muslims cling to in some kind of desperation while making joy here on earth impossible. Islam is set on destruction and sacrificing your precious life to an imaginary monster, not accomplishment and using your mindís fullest power.

I have asked many Muslims what happiness is...what they think is the root of happiness. Not one could answer. They could not introspect and identify the root of happiness. How sad is that?
Happiness comes from within. If we need external factors to be happy, we probably will never find happiness.

Happiness is not related to Joy or pleasue or enjoyment although many people seem to think they are synonymous. A happy person will still be happy even under the most adverse of conditions.

One of the happiest times of my life was the year I spent in a body cast in constant excruciating pain.

I really doubt any religion can make a person happy, but I have found Islam gives me a method to express my happiness and enjoy it fully. I suspect you feel the same about Atheism.

While it is nice to be happy and it does help us enjoy life, it is no guarantee of heaven or hell. It is basically a state of being and frame of thought we have found.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:11 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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"Happiness comes from within."

Of course it does. Happiness is an emotion. What within causes happiness and how does that relate to ther external?

"One of the happiest times of my life was the year I spent in a body cast in constant excruciating pain. "

Yikes! Why? Are you a masochist?? (gratified by pain, degradation, deprivation, etc., inflicted on oneself either by one's own actions or the actions of others.)

"I really doubt any religion can make a person happy, but I have found Islam gives me a method to express my happiness and enjoy it fully. I suspect you feel the same about Atheism. "

Not really. Atheism is a lack of belief in a supernatural entity, not a method of expressing happiness. Methods to express happiness? That might be a celebration with friends, dancing, making love with my husband, music, reviewing my accomplishments, those joyful moments when I look back on my success and feel such an amazing love of my life and self-esteem.

"While it is nice to be happy and it does help us enjoy life, it is no guarantee of heaven or hell."

There is no haven or hell and no afterlife. This is it.

"It is basically a state of being and frame of thought we have found."

Based on what? Found where?
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:29 PM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,122,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
As per Islamic faith, the Quranic message of monotheism is the same as it was revealed in Torah, Bible and what was revealed to other prophets of Allah. There is indeed nothing new in it.
I have failed to communicate that which I intended. I am getting very esoteric in the thoughts I am writing. The script alluded to other written texts preceding the Qur'an. And even accepting that religions build upon the beliefs of others ... reference the Book of the Dead/Genesis ... Mithraism/baptism ... Isis cult/Mary, it is not the monotheistic belief that I am asking about. Would/could these texts contain information so parallel to the Qur'an that they were incorporated. If so, wouldn't bring the question of the source of the information in the Qur'an come into question?

El Nox
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Happiness comes from within."

Of course it does. Happiness is an emotion. What within causes happiness and how does that relate to ther external?

"One of the happiest times of my life was the year I spent in a body cast in constant excruciating pain. "

Yikes! Why? Are you a masochist?? (gratified by pain, degradation, deprivation, etc., inflicted on oneself either by one's own actions or the actions of others.)

"I really doubt any religion can make a person happy, but I have found Islam gives me a method to express my happiness and enjoy it fully. I suspect you feel the same about Atheism. "

Not really. Atheism is a lack of belief in a supernatural entity, not a method of expressing happiness. Methods to express happiness? That might be a celebration with friends, dancing, making love with my husband, music, reviewing my accomplishments, those joyful moments when I look back on my success and feel such an amazing love of my life and self-esteem.

"While it is nice to be happy and it does help us enjoy life, it is no guarantee of heaven or hell."

There is no haven or hell and no afterlife. This is it.

"It is basically a state of being and frame of thought we have found."

Based on what? Found where?
"Based on what? Found where?"

My brief experience as a physiological psychologist that attempted to find a physical cause for emotion led me to the conclusion that emotions are the result of stimulation of the limbic system by the synopsis of neurons in our cerebral cortex. In other words our thoughts and memories are the trigger of all emotions, including happiness.

No I am not a masochist and I did dislike the pain and immobility, but that did not prevent me from many happy thoughts, primarily the realization I was very fortunate to have survived and perhaps even happier that I was not found by Viet-cong and did not end up in the "Hanoi Hilton". Even in pain it is possible to find reason to be happy. I also met the woman who would become my first wife during that time.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Did Allah's words get confused in retelling the story?"

Well, to take the ENTIRE Quran in context means knowing that Muhammed, a really evil and perverted man, invented allah so he, Muhammed, could be a 'prophet' and get away with doing a lot of evil things. THAT is the FULL context.

The Quran is a mess. It is not in chronological order. It is full of repetition and contradictions. It's very poorly written. On top of that is the issue of abrogation, where the older verses are wiped out by newer verses. To try to make it rational is impossible.
I agree the above is the most critical point relation to context of the Quran. This can be easily inferred from the Quran, the psychology of Muhmammad, psychology of religions and believers, psychology of a religious leader, anthropoloygy, etc.

Most would agree there is nothing new in the Quran.
The difference is how Muhammad plagiarized the ancient texts, condemned the believers of the past who changed the original message and claim himself to the final messenger.
The irony is it was Muhammad [or a group of men] who himself changed the ancients texts to suit his personal psychology and personality.

How Islam and other religions are founded and got popular is because the majority of human beings are existential desperadoes and like vacuum cleaners are ever ready to suck into whatever religious salvation offers [promise of eternal life in heaven with virgins, etc.] that are thrown at them.

Muhammad's Islam was rejected and mocked by the Jews, Christians and idolaters in his early phases [Meccan] and his believers expanded tremendously after Muhammad went aggressive martially to kill and conquer his opponents [in the Medinian phase]. Had Muhammad appeared in the year 2000s his religion would never have got off the ground at all.

Because of Muhammad martial background and the evil & violent elements [no holds barred] in the Quran within the whole context I would never wish everybody to be a Muslim. IF anyone must need a religion to deal with their subliminal soteriological existential desperation, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Christianity, and other more pacifist religions would be better deals.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
I have failed to communicate that which I intended. I am getting very esoteric in the thoughts I am writing. The script alluded to other written texts preceding the Qur'an. And even accepting that religions build upon the beliefs of others ... reference the Book of the Dead/Genesis ... Mithraism/baptism ... Isis cult/Mary, it is not the monotheistic belief that I am asking about. Would/could these texts contain information so parallel to the Qur'an that they were incorporated. If so, wouldn't bring the question of the source of the information in the Qur'an come into question?

El Nox
We believe, or perhaps better to say, Many of us Muslims believe prophets were sent to all people. They all gave the very same message, except worded in a manner understandable to the people the particular Prophet(pbuh) revealed it to. The message was sent one last time to Muhammad(pbuh) who revealed it to all people in multiple forms, as out last chance to not mess it up again like we always had done in the past. But, sadly it is evident there are those who still manage to mess it up. Including some who profess to being Muslims.

Que sera, sera.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:20 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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"In other words our thoughts and memories are the trigger of all emotions, including happiness."

It's much more than that. Emotions are lightening quick are lightning-like estimates of the things around you, calculated according to your values. An emotion is your response to a fact of reality, an estimate dictated by your value system.

Simple example: Three people see a dead dog in the road. The first person feels no emotion other than a vague hope that the mess is cleaned up soon. The second person stops the car and checks to make sure the dog is dead. He feels relief in seeing that the dog died quickly. He is a vet. The third person is devastated. This was his beloved dog and best friend. Three different emotions based on value, or, in the first case, lack of value and therefore lack of emotion.

That is how emotions work. And many people have screwed up emotions because they have screwed up value systems. They never think to ask themselves: “What do I feel?” and “Why do I feel it?”. A rational person knows or learns the source of his emotions, the basic premises they come from. If the premises are wrong, he corrects them. If seeing the success of others brings jealousy, it is necessary to find the cause of that emotion and deal with it.

One emotion that I see from Muslims is hatred of the good. When I speak out against rape and pedophilia and slavery and terrorism, I am hated by Muslims, who want to slaughter me and my family. Where does that emotion come from.

When I think about what Muhammed and his men did to women, I am angry. Why? Because my value system includes valuing human life and non-initiation of force against others.

The hatred Muhammed has for non-Muslims is horrible. What values did he have? He ordered people to be killed, he raped a child, he demanded hate and terrorism, etc. Certainly he did not value human life, or peace, or individual rights or freedom or justice. His values were power and inflicting pain and sexual perversions.

If someone thinks their emotions are the cause and their mind is passive, if they are guided by their emotions and use their mind only to rationalize or justify them somehow—then they are acting immorally. It takes ruthlessly honest commitment to introspection or you will not discover what your emotions are, what arouses the emotions, and whether your emotions are an appropriate response to the facts of reality, or a mistaken response, or a vicious illusion produced by years of self-deception.

Yes, to be glad to have survived is a valid emotion, but not what I would consider to be true happiness. More like relief.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Contrary to populary belief friendships with non-Muslims are not discourged. that is a fallacy highly promoted by the anti-Islam sites.

The word Saddiq (friend) does not even appear in the Qur'an. the word translated as friend in many translations is Wali.

While a Wali should be a friend, a wali is a person's mentor, leader, protector, religious guide. Wali also translates as Governor, parent or any high ranking government official.

Some of Muhammad's friends (Saddiq) were not Muslims.
The above is a very short-sighted interpretation. It is ridiculous to conclude just because Saddiq (friend) does not appear in the Quran, Muslims can be Saddiq (friend) with non-Muslims.

A Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah as per the terms and conditions in the Quran.
I am very familiar with the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
In the whole context of the Quran, the general view is Muslims must keep a distance [aloof, stern, suspicious of] from non-Muslims. This is reflected on the context of here on Earth and in the hereafter.

Some of the English translations interpret awliyaa [allies, guardian, partners, associate] as 'friend.' In a way such people can be regarded as friends in the widest sense. In the verse below 'awliyaa' can be interpret as specific allies or general friends.
4:89. They long that ye [Muslims] should disbelieve even as they [the infidels] disbelieve, that ye [Muslims] may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends [awliyaa] from them [infidels] till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they [infidels] turn back (to enmity) [renegade?] then take them and kill them [the infidels] wherever ye [Muslims] find them [the infidels], and choose no friend [wali] nor helper from among them
While 4:89 is in general, 3:118 specifically stated Muslims should not take non-Muslims as intimates, what else other than close friends.
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.
66:9. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers [infidels] and the hypocrites, and be stern with them [infidels] . Hell will be their [infidels] home, a hapless journey's end.
When one read the whole Quran the strongest weight is not to be friendly to non-Muslims in general and any concession is to be written in a treaty.

In reality, there are Muslims who are very friendly with non-Muslims. Those who are genuinely friendly are doing it from the basis of human values and not from the dictate of the Quran. Those who are serious Muslims and follow the Quran to the letter [to be assured to eternal life in heaven], they are not friendly with non-Muslims lest on pretense [tagiya] for some unavoidable reasons.

Even if all are Muslims, the Quran warned against hypocrite and coward Muslims.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think that to fully understand this one needs to understand the Arab people in the pre-Islamic years. They were very brutal and quite vicious. Wives were often beat to death.
I appreciate the clarity you have brought to my understanding of Islam, Wood. The Wahabi madhab of Saudi Arabia was particularly illuminating. It explains this,



But the recent stoning of an Afghan woman highlights the fact that some areas of Islam are every bit as violent as the pre-Islamic years.



Without any real central leadership and the wide diversity of views about Islam, how will we ever eradicate such monstrous attitudes and behaviors from civilized society, Wood??
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is one reason why it is problematic if everybody is a Muslim.

In practice I don't believe there can be 100% Muslims but say 95%.

The present state is as follows;

1. There say 7 billion people on Earth
2. There are 1.5 billion Muslims
3. 20% of any group of humans are evil prone,

4. Therefore there is a pool of 300 million evil prone of various degrees 1 - 100.
5. >50% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran contain negative and evil elements of various degrees
6. Some evil prone Muslim from the pool are committing terrible evils and violence around the world at present. [note our concern is with the present, not the past].


If 95% were to be Muslim, then we have the following terrible situation;

4 Therefore there is a pool of 1.33 billion evil prone of various degrees 1 - 100.
5. >50% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran contain negative and evil elements of various degrees
6. Some evil prone Muslim from the pool are committing terrible evils and violence around the world at present. [note our concern is with the present, not the past].

The very evil prone from the pool of 1.33 billion will surely kill the rest or most of the 5% or 350 million non-Muslim via genocide.

Based on the above, those who wish ALL to be Muslims would harbor terrible cruel intentions.
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