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Old 11-09-2015, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
And the point being?
Yes there are, have been and always will be those who leave Islam. Which is what they should do if they do not believe in the existence of Allaah(swt). I believe they are making a very grave error and I am certain they probably believe I am making a grave error by staying Muslim. We each are individuals and we alone are responsible for our beliefs and disbeliefs.
I am very much convinced Allaah(swt) exists. I have not found any reason to believe other wise. The remnants of atheism are somewhat persistent in my thinking and to be honest at times I do have doubts. but each time I resolve a doubt, the more aware I become of Allaah(swt). A Muslim is not to believe blindly and simply believe because somthing is passed down as true. Many of us by Nature are constant questioners and do seek reaffirmation of the existence of Allaah(swt).
When a person is much older it would be most effective [wiser] not to change their beliefs and faith. I have not come across anyone who is much older say >70 who became an atheist. There are good scientific and psychological reasons for it.
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God | Atheism & Most Religious Countries


Quote:
One of the strongest reasons I believe Muhammad (saws) existed as a person is
the historically hatred of him by non-Muslims. It might be easy to believe some
thing that does not exist, but it is quite difficult to hate a non-Existant
entity. The hatred spread on anti-Islamic sites is very possibly the primary
things that keep my belief in Muhammad(saws) and Allaah(swt) strong. I can not
envision so much hatred for something that does not exist.
Have you ever wonder why there are no prevalent 'hatred' for Buddha, Jesus, Mahavira [Jainism], Zoroaster, Lao Tze [Taoism], Krishna [Vedanta-Hinduism]?
In contrast, have you ever wonder why there is so much negative and anti sentiments for Muhammad and Islam.
Why is Muhammad's Islam the only religion that is hated and condemned by so many people [non-Muslims] around the world?

Obviously you must take note why you are on the side of a religion which is most hated in the world. I presume you think people hate Muhammad and Islam because they are zealous?
I am not suggesting you change your belief but at least take off your Islamic 'hat' and wear the human 'hat' once in a while and reflect on the truth of it


Quote:
Militant Atheism and radical Christianity are strong incentives for a person
like me to believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) and the beauty of performing
Islam. Even without the personal experience that convinced me Allaah(swt) exist
I believe my years as an Atheist were part of the path that led me to Islam. I
would not have accepted Islam if I had not left Christianity for Atheism.
Thank you for the 2 videos, they have done much to reaffirm my belief Islam
is the correct path.Unlike Farhan I found morality and and humility through Islam, even to a
higher degree that what I experienced as a Christian or Atheist. I do prayer for
those like Farhan and wish them well. If they are seekers there is always a
possibility they will return to the Truth.
As I explained above, with your age and the psychological state you are in, I don't give any credibility to your above defensive and "inoculation" views [only the above not necessary others]. I think you should just remain a Muslims for soteriological reasons and not try to justify any morality out of Muhammad's actions [e.g. pedophilia, hijack son-in-law's wife, slaughtering of the innocents, plagiarizing, etc.].

Quote:
Farhan had a bit of a battle, beginning and an Ahmadyyah and then accepting Islam as a Salafi. an easy target for the hate sites. He probably was well versed in the Qur'an but it does not seem he every found the peace and contentment it guides one to.
Btw, he was the one who seek out to debate and convert others in the first place but eventually his critical thinking, rationality and human-ness prevail.
Farhan did not switch or jump emotionally into Christianity like many others but keep a cool head and was rational in his apostasy.
The good thing of why I think this video is worth listening is he gave a lot of objective, moral and logical reasons why he found Islam to be unrealistic and unconvincing.
He explained the psychological reasons why he [was a Muslim] had kept defending Islam despite the irrationality & contradiction [just as you and many Muslims must do].
When he reached a certain emotional maturity he then gave up Islam.

Another point is the truth of theism is, for a start it is based on faith [belief without reasons nor proofs] as such a believers must NEVER made any attempt to justify it.
However if a faith has malignant elements that directly influence SOME believers into committing evils and violence as with Islam, then it is imperative the believers must get to the truth of it for the sake of humanity.
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Old 11-10-2015, 12:02 AM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,661,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post


Have you ever wonder why there are no prevalent 'hatred' for Buddha, Jesus, Mahavira [Jainism], Zoroaster, Lao Tze [Taoism], Krishna [Vedanta-Hinduism]?
In contrast, have you ever wonder why there is so much negative and anti sentiments for Muhammad and Islam.
Why is Muhammad's Islam the only religion that is hated and condemned by so many people [non-Muslims] around the world?

Obviously you must take note why you are on the side of a religion which is most hated in the world. I presume you think people hate Muhammad and Islam because they are zealous?
I am not suggesting you change your belief but at least take off your Islamic 'hat' and wear the human 'hat' once in a while and reflect on the truth of it
Can I take the liberty of making this rudimentary level argument a bit more interesting?

Continuum, in light of the above argument, have you ever wondered why Islam remains one of the fastest growing religions in the world?

Think about it. Perhaps it's also one of the most loved religion where people from all nations, all colors and all races are entering in scores?

And perhaps its YOU who needs to take off your hat of hate and see the growth, and in some cases, perhaps decline rate of Taosim, and Jainism and this-ism and that-ism, and then compare it with the most beloved religion that is growing in leaps and bounds - a phenomenon, isn't it?

The other day, University of Regina installed specialized and customized water closets for Muslim students - I why not this special arrangements for Bhudists and Taosim and shaoism ?
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Old 11-10-2015, 04:04 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 755,890 times
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"Continuum, in light of the above argument, have you ever wondered why Islam remains one of the fastest growing religions in the world?"

I'll put my two cents in here. This has been studied.

Muslims have more children than members of other major religious groups.

Muslims have the youngest median age (23 in 2010) of all major religious groups so a larger share of Muslims will soon be at the point in their lives when people begin having children.

"Think about it. Perhaps it's also one of the most loved religion where people from all nations, all colors and all races are entering in scores?"

Nope. It's the reproduction rate.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group | Pew Research Center

There's also the issue that leaving Islam is illegal in some countries.

The study, of course, can't predict such things as cataclysmic wars, rampaging diseases, natural disasters and economic meltdowns. And, an educated people tend to have less offspring, so if Muslims start becoming more educated, they will probably start having less children.

Remember, most women in Islam are illiterate. Primary school participation is below 60% in 17 OIC countries.
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Old 11-10-2015, 08:30 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 755,890 times
Reputation: 435
"Since the start of the Syrian war, the United States has accepted 1,500 refugees — most of them this year. It could take in 8,000 next year."

"QUARTER-MILLION MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS ALLOWED INTO U.S. EACH YEAR
'Given work permits, welfare access, ability to become voting citizens'

Read more at Quarter-million Muslim immigrants allowed into U.S. each year

The news outlet looked at State Department and Homeland Security records to conclude: “Twelve years after the September 11th hijackers were invited into the country on temporary visas, the U.S. decided to admit 280,276 migrants from Muslim countries within a single fiscal year.”

Get the hottest, most important news stories on the Internet – delivered FREE to your inbox as soon as they break! Take just 30 seconds and sign up for WND’s Email News Alerts!

Add to that President Obama’s hopes to bring in another 10,000 from Syria, and the numbers really rack up. As Breitbart noted: “This means that every year the U.S. admits a number of Muslim migrants larger in size than the entire population of Des Moines, Iowa; Lincoln, Nebraska; or Dayton, Ohio.”

Sifting through the figures further, Breitbart found the United States has “permanently resettled 1.5 million Muslim immigrants” between 2001 and 2013, and now these legal immigrants “will be given automatic work permits, welfare access and the ability to become voting citizens.”

" Many are asking why the U.S. isn't doing more."

ROFL! Like it is an obligation to import these potential terrorists that are ruining Europe with their rape and rioting and unproductivity and hate and terrorist attacks and trash and pooping in the streets. The Vatican asked this question and they imported zero.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky3ZresFd2k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tMk-QM3e4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoiCYwoJKrE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlG75wb7lLw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jg8EeL7zD8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSi6dkw0m0M

I really hope you watch these videos.
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Old 11-10-2015, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Can I take the liberty of making this rudimentary level argument a bit more interesting?

Continuum, in light of the above argument, have you ever wondered why Islam remains one of the fastest growing religions in the world?

Think about it. Perhaps it's also one of the most loved religion where people from all nations, all colors and all races are entering in scores?

And perhaps its YOU who needs to take off your hat of hate and see the growth, and in some cases, perhaps decline rate of Taosim, and Jainism and this-ism and that-ism, and then compare it with the most beloved religion that is growing in leaps and bounds - a phenomenon, isn't it?

The other day, University of Regina installed specialized and customized water closets for Muslim students - I why not this special arrangements for Bhudists and Taosim and shaoism?
Have I ever wondered?

I surely have reviewed the changes in the numbers of believers in the world. There are no precise statistics available to confirm the actual changes in the number of believers of each religion.

Many Muslims think their religion is the one of the fastest growing religions in the world because they see and hear a lot about Muslims in the news and for the wrong moral reasons.

We don't know the actual numbers but for Islam to grow by even 1% it will need 15 million newly converted Muslims per year.
I don't think there are 15 million conversions to Islam per year.
The number of Muslims will grow naturally via birth but that is nothing to boast about since this is natural and there is a coercion of death if one apostate. Again this is not a good moral point for the religion.

Because Christianity and Islam are the only two major religions at present with the largest numbers of believers around the world, their large numbers give the impression they are among the fastest growing religions in the world. Such thinking has no credibility unless we can get the actual numbers in terms of conversion, by birth, by how many are serious believers, etc.

One point I can speculate is Christianity will be the fastest growing religion in the near future because there is a large vacuum and potential for it in China's 1.5 billion people. If 20% convert to Christianity [as in Korea] that is 300 million. Because of the contempt for Islam by the Chinese, there is no great jump for Islam in China or even Japan.

There are definitely actual growths of conversions to Buddhism. Because Buddhism has a lower base number than Islam and Christianity, its % of change may be greater than that of Islam and Christianity, say over the last 20 years. It may be possible and no one can confirm that unless we have actual verifiable numbers.

The main reasons for changes to the number of believers in a religion are;
1. By birth
2. By conversion

The sad fact on conversions to Islam by certain group is due to the force of fears and terrors, and attraction to its evil elements. It is related to some degree of the "Stockholm Syndrome". Such conversions do not happen significantly with other religions.
Popularity is this case do not mean true or holistically good. The Nazi party in the 1930s-40s saw great jumps in membership but that do not justify they are good.

As Farhan has stated in this video many are attracted to Islam due to its disciplines [forced and threatened], culture, identity, nasheeds, its great numbers, popularity but those factors do not prove Islam is genuinely true or holistically good.

Muslims and Islam are given a lot of attention these days because SOME [not all] desperately seek attention and approval [due to low self-esteem] via terrors & violence, other forms of threats [funding, islamophobia, etc] and being victimized which induce some apologists to respond to placate them. This is a very typical and repeatable human behavior. Note how children throw tantrums and some parent will give in to give them attention. In many cases where communities riot and commit terrors & violence in the neighborhood, some politicians will give them attention to placate them. This are very natural behaviors but immature ones.

Btw, most of the Eastern religions and their believers will NEVER make low self-esteem approaches to get attention to their religion nor feel proud if their religion are given attention because this is against the principles of their religion. Surely you know 'pride' is one of the greater sins.

It is false to say Islam is the most loved religion. Many are born and coerced into it. Many Muslims dare not leave their religion due to various threats. Some Muslims may 'love' their Islam but Islam is basically a religion of contempt for non-believers.
22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I [Allah] indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!

40:10. Lo! (on that day) those [infidels] who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye [infidels] were called unto the faith but did refuse.

If Allah demonstrate the above examples and degrees of 'abhorence' we can expect many believers to follow suit. There are a large quantum of verses along the same line in the Quran and worst still in the Hadiths.

Have I ever wondered?

So, have you ever wondered?
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Old 11-10-2015, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Have I ever wondered?

I surely have reviewed the changes in the numbers of believers in the world. There are no precise statistics available to confirm the actual changes in the number of believers of each religion.

Many Muslims think their religion is the one of the fastest growing religions in the world because they see and hear a lot about Muslims in the news and for the wrong moral reasons.

We don't know the actual numbers but for Islam to grow by even 1% it will need 15 million newly converted Muslims per year.
I don't think there are 15 million conversions to Islam per year.
The number of Muslims will grow naturally via birth but that is nothing to boast about since this is natural and there is a coercion of death if one apostate. Again this is not a good moral point for the religion.

Because Christianity and Islam are the only two major religions at present with the largest numbers of believers around the world, their large numbers give the impression they are among the fastest growing religions in the world. Such thinking has no credibility unless we can get the actual numbers in terms of conversion, by birth, by how many are serious believers, etc.

One point I can speculate is Christianity will be the fastest growing religion in the near future because there is a large vacuum and potential for it in China's 1.5 billion people. If 20% convert to Christianity [as in Korea] that is 300 million. Because of the contempt for Islam by the Chinese, there is no great jump for Islam in China or even Japan.

There are definitely actual growths of conversions to Buddhism. Because Buddhism has a lower base number than Islam and Christianity, its % of change may be greater than that of Islam and Christianity, say over the last 20 years. It may be possible and no one can confirm that unless we have actual verifiable numbers.

The main reasons for changes to the number of believers in a religion are;
1. By birth
2. By conversion

The sad fact on conversions to Islam by certain group is due to the force of fears and terrors, and attraction to its evil elements. It is related to some degree of the "Stockholm Syndrome". Such conversions do not happen significantly with other religions.
Popularity is this case do not mean true or holistically good. The Nazi party in the 1930s-40s saw great jumps in membership but that do not justify they are good.

As Farhan has stated in this video many are attracted to Islam due to its disciplines [forced and threatened], culture, identity, nasheeds, its great numbers, popularity but those factors do not prove Islam is genuinely true or holistically good.

Muslims and Islam are given a lot of attention these days because SOME [not all] desperately seek attention and approval [due to low self-esteem] via terrors & violence, other forms of threats [funding, islamophobia, etc] and being victimized which induce some apologists to respond to placate them. This is a very typical and repeatable human behavior. Note how children throw tantrums and some parent will give in to give them attention. In many cases where communities riot and commit terrors & violence in the neighborhood, some politicians will give them attention to placate them. This are very natural behaviors but immature ones.

Btw, most of the Eastern religions and their believers will NEVER make low self-esteem approaches to get attention to their religion nor feel proud if their religion are given attention because this is against the principles of their religion. Surely you know 'pride' is one of the greater sins.

It is false to say Islam is the most loved religion. Many are born and coerced into it. Many Muslims dare not leave their religion due to various threats. Some Muslims may 'love' their Islam but Islam is basically a religion of contempt for non-believers.
22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I [Allah] indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!

40:10. Lo! (on that day) those [infidels] who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye [infidels] were called unto the faith but did refuse.

If Allah demonstrate the above examples and degrees of 'abhorence' we can expect many believers to follow suit. There are a large quantum of verses along the same line in the Quran and worst still in the Hadiths.

Have I ever wondered?

So, have you ever wondered?
The question should be "how come some people manage to find commands to hate or do violence to others, in the Qur'an

One way is by assuming an ayyat is a command and failure to comprehend the message that was revealed.

For Example 40:10 actually reads approximently as any of these 3 translations.

Quote:
[SIZE=2][But,] behold, as for those who are bent on denying the truth - [on that same Day] a voice will call out unto them: [6] “Indeed, greater than your [present] loathing of yourselves [7] was God’s loathing of you [at the time] when you were called unto faith but went on denying the truth!” [8] - 40:10 [SIZE=1](Asad)[/SIZE]
The Unbelievers will be addressed: "Greater was the aversion of Allah to you than (is) your aversion to yourselves, seeing that ye were called to the Faith and ye used to refuse." - 40:10 [SIZE=1](Y. Ali)[/SIZE]
Lo! (on that day) those who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye were called unto the faith but did refuse. - 40:10 [SIZE=1](Picktall)[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
It does not contain the word infidel. It does contain the word kafaroo the plural of Kafir. Although Kafir often translates into English as infidel, it is not exactly the same. Kafir is much deeper and few people will ever be Kakir. It is basically a person who believes in Allaah(swt) but knowingly defies him.

Surah 40

One needs to understand the conditions and times when it was revealed. It was revealed consecutively with Surah al-Zumar (39) and both should be read together.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 11-10-2015 at 09:37 PM.. Reason: corrected typo
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Old 11-10-2015, 09:35 PM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,661,358 times
Reputation: 1547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

Many Muslims think their religion is the one of the fastest growing religions in the world
Wrong again!
Many NON-Muslim entities who have done statistical research actually report and believe this.

So rest of your post is meaningless since it was based on a wrong premise - I had to stop here.
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Old 11-10-2015, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Wrong again!
Many NON-Muslim entities who have done statistical research actually report and believe this.

So rest of your post is meaningless since it was based on a wrong premise - I had to stop here.
your accusation is totally wrong. I did mention non-Muslims also claim their religion to be the fastest growing. Note my point in that post,

Quote:
Because Christianity and Islam are the only two major religions at present with
the largest numbers of believers around the world, their large numbers give the
impression they are among the fastest growing religions in the world.
I did not insist you must read or reply to my post. That is your discretion but at least don't lie and be dishonest on what I had posted.
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Old 11-10-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The question should be "how come some people manage to find commands to hate or do violence to others, in the Qur'an

One way is by assuming an ayyat is a command and failure to comprehend the message that was revealed.

For Example 40:10 actually reads approximently as any of these 3 translations.

It does not contain the word infidel. It does contain the word kafaroo the plural of Kafir. Although Kafir often translates into English as infidel, it is not exactly the same. Kafir is much deeper and few people will ever be Kafir. It is basically a person who believes in Allaah(swt) but knowingly defies him.

Surah 40

One needs to understand the conditions and times when it was revealed. It was revealed consecutively with Surah al-Zumar (39) and both should be read together.
I have read the Quran very extensively on a sustained continual full time basis. I dare claim I am very familiar with it.
Generally the Quran differentiate Muslims from non-Muslims, i.e. invoking the primal impulse of 'us versus them'.

Your deflection is just a matter of semantics. What we should be concerned is the reality of the terrible evils and violence suffered by the Kafir [or various degrees and labels] that is actually happening from SOME Muslims as inspired by Islam.

In general the Quran direct negativity, contempt and 'hate' against non-Muslims in a range of degrees. Note this qualification of 'range of degrees' of negativity is very important. However there is no room at all for positivity and niceness from Allah to non-Muslims.

So it is a matter of degree of 'hate' by Allah which could be 5/100 or 100/100.
A person who is ignorant, e.g. a non-Muslim child, or aborigine in the middle of the Amazon or some deep jungle who has no access the Quran may incur a hate/contempt of 30/100.
A real Kafir may incur a hate of 100/100.
The rest are the in betweens non-Muslims that will incur various degrees of hate and punishments from Allah.

Now I don't agree there are only a few Kafir [deliberate disbelievers] with say say 90/100 degree of abhorrence from Allah.
The Jews and Christians deliberately reject the Quran and Muhammad, and had been accused of corrupting and assigning partners and sons to Allah. This is the unpardonable sin and thus assigned the highest degree of Kafir_ness, i.e. 99/100 or 100/100.
Therefore all Jews and Christians are present [all 2 billion ++] of them are regarded as 90-100/100 degree Kafirs because they are rejecting the Quran which they are well aware of.

The rest [up to 2 billion ] also assign partners, idols and deities to god so they should be at least regarded as 80-90/100 degree Kafirs. With the internet and the activities of Muslims they are aware of the Quran and the call by Muslims to be Muslims. As GoCardinals claimed,

Quote:
Think about it. Perhaps it's also one of the most loved religion where people
from all nations, all colors and all races are entering in scores?
So there would be many people who are exposed to the calling of Islam and rejecting it by believing in assigning partners to God. These are Kafir of some high degree.

The sample of verses I gave earlier are only 2. In reality >55% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran contain some degree [mild to serious] of negativity that is directed at non-Muslims [kafir of various degrees]. Such condemnation of non-Muslims by Allah has inspired SOME [300 million but not all] evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence against the perceived 'kafir'.
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Old 11-10-2015, 11:10 PM
 
569 posts, read 375,070 times
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To the thread:

It is because I don't want to look like these forever.

jk(just kidding). It was because the Jews would stone me, if I chatted with them with my minds. And they really loved to test my sincereties. It was like I would present them with a white underwear. Then they would start argue if it was really a white underwear. LOL that were my impressions of them from the Internet.
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