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Old 11-08-2015, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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With all the negative media stories, why would anyone choose to remain a Muslim?

Answering for myself.

The Media stories reflect the actions of individuals, not what Islam is. they reflect on the individuals, not Islam.

As to why I stay Muslim.

I accepted Islam because I have found reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists and I believe that we are to submit to him and Islam is the path for doing so correctly.
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Old 11-08-2015, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I believe there is a deeper psychological reasons why theists stay as a theist, i.e. due to a subliminal existential desperation [of various degrees]

As for why do one stay a Muslim;
Here is a very good explanation on why Muslims stay as a Muslim, and also why he decide not be a Muslim thereafter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65O2mAZ8CHQ


Farhan's explained why he was stuck to being a Muslims and defended his position then was due to a deep emotional attachment to the Muslim identity, the culture, the discipline, the sound of prayers, etc.
Such deep emotional attachment can happen to any other aspect of life, hobbies, sports, sex, entertainment, drugs, in love and to the extreme as addiction and obsessive compulsive disorders.

When Farhan discovered Islam was not up to normal human standards, i.e. moral and others, he became an apostate.

When that psychological emotional attachment is embedded in one's psyche, the believer will do whatever it takes to defend his position, inoculation theory, confirmation bias, to the extreme of irrationality, bad logic, lying, denial, and killing others. I am accusing you of using these defensive techniques [other than the bolded ones] in my discussions herein with you.

I believe you are in a psychological state at present where you have no choice but to be a theist within a religion in order to maintain some stable degree of a peace of mind. This is understandable and reasonable. It is just very unfortunate that you ended up with a religion that has in part [not full] very evil and violent elements which is very difficult to defend.
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe there is a deeper psychological reasons why theists stay as a theist, i.e. due to a subliminal existential desperation [of various degrees]

As for why do one stay a Muslim;
Here is a very good explanation on why Muslims stay as a Muslim, and also why he decide not be a Muslim thereafter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65O2mAZ8CHQ


Farhan's explained why he was stuck to being a Muslims and defended his position then was due to a deep emotional attachment to the Muslim identity, the culture, the discipline, the sound of prayers, etc.
Such deep emotional attachment can happen to any other aspect of life, hobbies, sports, sex, entertainment, drugs, in love and to the extreme as addiction and obsessive compulsive disorders.

When Farhan discovered Islam was not up to normal human standards, i.e. moral and others, he became an apostate.

When that psychological emotional attachment is embedded in one's psyche, the believer will do whatever it takes to defend his position, inoculation theory, confirmation bias, to the extreme of irrationality, bad logic, lying, denial, and killing others. I am accusing you of using these defensive techniques [other than the bolded ones] in my discussions herein with you.

I believe you are in a psychological state at present where you have no choice but to be a theist within a religion in order to maintain some stable degree of a peace of mind. This is understandable and reasonable. It is just very unfortunate that you ended up with a religion that has in part [not full] very evil and violent elements which is very difficult to defend.
Farhan was also a Salafi(wahabbi) It is not uncommon for a wahhabi to leave. Many that leave accept a legitimate Madhab instead and some like Farhan leave Islam completly. I will not say a Salafi is not Muslim, but I would never accept the teachings of Muhammad Wahhab. If that was my only exposure to Islam I also would leave. but I have been exposed to 6 different Madhabs, 4 of them considered legitimate by all Sunni and 2 considered deviant.

Should not Salafi are Wahabbi minus some of the more violent aspects. But still very extreme.

The Qur'an stresses moderation in all things including our De'en. I am using De'en as it reflects Islam better than the word religion.
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Old 11-08-2015, 10:23 PM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,658,925 times
Reputation: 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
With all the negative media stories, why would anyone choose to remain a Muslim?

Answering for myself.

The Media stories reflect the actions of individuals, not what Islam is. they reflect on the individuals, not Islam.

As to why I stay Muslim.

I accepted Islam because I have found reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists and I believe that we are to submit to him and Islam is the path for doing so correctly.
hahaaa... lovely thread.

Sometimes when I think of many of these lying and false media stories, I smile. Why? Because Quran has already answered it in one of the most beautiful and famous verses 17:81


وَقُلْ جَاء الْحَقُّ وَزَهَقَ الْبَاطِلُ إِنَّ الْبَاطِلَ كَانَ زَهُوقًا


Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.”


Ya Sheikh, think about it. What's left afterwards, when Quran says, Innal Baatila kana zahooqa ????

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!!!

No matter what they do, they can't beat Allah. And that's the promise of Quran


And while we are at it,
Listen to this lovely recitation of Al-Isra by Sheikh Idris Abkar with English Subtitles. Absolutely lovely.


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Old 11-08-2015, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Farhan was also a Salafi(wahabbi) It is not uncommon for a wahhabi to leave. Many that leave accept a legitimate Madhab instead and some like Farhan leave Islam completly. I will not say a Salafi is not Muslim, but I would never accept the teachings of Muhammad Wahhab. If that was my only exposure to Islam I also would leave. but I have been exposed to 6 different Madhabs, 4 of them considered legitimate by all Sunni and 2 considered deviant.

Should not Salafi are Wahabbi minus some of the more violent aspects. But still very extreme.

The Qur'an stresses moderation in all things including our De'en. I am using De'en as it reflects Islam better than the word religion.
Farhan left Islam not because of Salafism.
He left because Muhammad and the Quran could not stand up to rational and critical scrutiny.
This is a very educated guy and he did very extensive research on Islam to defend his position. It seems the more he tried to defend the religion rationally the more it gives way.

He mentioned many reasons contributed to his apostasy and here are two major points;

1. Muhammad consented to the scribe Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri suggestions of changes to what Muhammad recited. Point is, if Muhammad allowed what he recited to be changed then the Quran cannot be perfect as from Allah.

#3 From Al-Sira by al-'Iraqi

The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. `Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Qurai****e among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam.
He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'Most High, All-Wise', and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'.
On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'"
So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him." So on the day Muhammad conquered Mecca, he commanded his scribe to be killed. But the scribe fled to `Uthman Ibn `Affan, because `Uthman was his foster brother (his mother suckled `Uthman). `Uthman, therefore, kept him away from Muhammad. After the people calmed down, `Uthman brought the scribe to Muhammad and sought protection for him. Muhammad kept silent for a long time, after which he said yes. When `Uthman had left, Muhammad said "I only kept silent so that you (the people) should kill him."
The Qur'an contains words by `Abdullah ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh
2. The case of Zainab
Farhan stated in this case the Prophet has to be the bigger man and higher morality should prevails. Even if Allah revealed that to him, the Prophet should have rejected the suggestion to take his adopted son in law daughter.


I suggest you listen the full video above, it is very educational and he mentioned a lot of elements from psychology. It has very solid arguments.

Here is another video on the same subject, only 8+ mins, suggest you listen to this as well;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSqppM11ZuA
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Farhan left Islam not because of Salafism.
He left because Muhammad and the Quran could not stand up to rational and critical scrutiny.
This is a very educated guy and he did very extensive research on Islam to defend his position. It seems the more he tried to defend the religion rationally the more it gives way.

He mentioned many reasons contributed to his apostasy and here are two major points;

1. Muhammad consented to the scribe Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri suggestions of changes to what Muhammad recited. Point is, if Muhammad allowed what he recited to be changed then the Quran cannot be perfect as from Allah.
#3 From Al-Sira by al-'Iraqi

The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. `Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Qurai****e among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam.
He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'Most High, All-Wise', and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'.
On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'"
So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him." So on the day Muhammad conquered Mecca, he commanded his scribe to be killed. But the scribe fled to `Uthman Ibn `Affan, because `Uthman was his foster brother (his mother suckled `Uthman). `Uthman, therefore, kept him away from Muhammad. After the people calmed down, `Uthman brought the scribe to Muhammad and sought protection for him. Muhammad kept silent for a long time, after which he said yes. When `Uthman had left, Muhammad said "I only kept silent so that you (the people) should kill him."
The Qur'an contains words by `Abdullah ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh
2. The case of Zainab
Farhan stated in this case the Prophet has to be the bigger man and higher morality should prevails. Even if Allah revealed that to him, the Prophet should have rejected the suggestion to take his adopted son in law daughter.


I suggest you listen the full video above, it is very educational and he mentioned a lot of elements from psychology. It has very solid arguments.

Here is another video on the same subject, only 8+ mins, suggest you listen to this as well;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSqppM11ZuA

And the point being?

Yes there are, have been and always will be those who leave Islam. Which is what they should do if they do not believe in the existence of Allaah(swt). I believe they are making a very grave error and I am certain they probably believe I am making a grave error by staying Muslim. We each are individuals and we alone are responsible for our beliefs and disbeliefs.


I am very much convinced Allaah(swt) exists. I have not found any reason to believe other wise. The remnants of atheism are somewhat persistent in my thinking and to be honest at times I do have doubts. but each time I resolve a doubt, the more aware I become of Allaah(swt). A Muslim is not to believe blindly and simply believe because somthing is passed down as true. Many of us by Nature are constant questioners and do seek reaffirmation of the existence of Allaah(swt).

One of the strongest reasons I believe Muhammad (saws) existed as a person is the historically hatred of him by non-Muslims. It might be easy to believe some thing that does not exist, but it is quite difficult to hate a non-Existant entity. The hatred spread on anti-Islamic sites is very possibly the primary things that keep my belief in Muhammad(saws) and Allaah(swt) strong. I can not envision so much hatred for something that does not exist.

Militant Atheism and radical Christianity are strong incentives for a person like me to believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) and the beauty of performing Islam. Even without the personal experience that convinced me Allaah(swt) exist I believe my years as an Atheist were part of the path that led me to Islam. I would not have accepted Islam if I had not left Christianity for Atheism.

Thank you for the 2 videos, they have done much to reaffirm my belief Islam is the correct path.

Unlike Farhan I found morality and and humility through Islam. even to a higher degree that what I experienced as a Christian or Atheist. I do prayer for those like Farhan and wish them well. If they are seekers there is always a possibility they will return to the Truth.

Farhan had a bit of a battle, beginning and an Ahmadyyah and then accepting Islam as a Salafi. an easy target for the hate sites. He probably was well versed in the Qur'an but it does not seem he every found the peace and contentment it guides one to.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 11-09-2015 at 03:34 AM..
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:15 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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"The Media stories reflect the actions of individuals, not what Islam is. they reflect on the individuals, not Islam."

That is true of everything. We can say that the Nazi's were individuals and their actions did not reflect Naziism....except that it did. These individuals chose to follow an evil ideology. Not all Nazi's slaughtered Jews, but all of them chose and held an ideology that promoted slaughter of Jews. Same with Islam, even if you evade reality about this.
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:27 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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"One of the strongest reasons I believe Muhammad (saws) existed as a person is the historically hatred of him by non-Muslims. It might be easy to believe some thing that does not exist, but it is quite difficult to hate a non-Existant entity."

I think you are getting this wrong. Allah does not exist. The judgement (and it is a passionate judgement that you see as hate, and often Muslims deserve hate based on rational judgement of their behavior and the same with Islam) is against terrorism. Against the Muslims ruining the Western countries. It is against our politicians for allowing such things to go on and inviting more of the same into our countries. You have seen the videos I have posted of Muslims rioting. How would you feel if someone came into your house, beat and raped your wife and little daughter, shat on your floor, screamed hate at you and then started beating you....would you feel anything? What would that feeling be? Would you refrain from judgement?

Hate: to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest:

Any moral person would obviously feel this.
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Old 11-09-2015, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"One of the strongest reasons I believe Muhammad (saws) existed as a person is the historically hatred of him by non-Muslims. It might be easy to believe some thing that does not exist, but it is quite difficult to hate a non-Existant entity."

I think you are getting this wrong. Allah does not exist. The judgement (and it is a passionate judgement that you see as hate, and often Muslims deserve hate based on rational judgement of their behavior and the same with Islam) is against terrorism. Against the Muslims ruining the Western countries. It is against our politicians for allowing such things to go on and inviting more of the same into our countries. You have seen the videos I have posted of Muslims rioting. How would you feel if someone came into your house, beat and raped your wife and little daughter, shat on your floor, screamed hate at you and then started beating you....would you feel anything? What would that feeling be? Would you refrain from judgement?

Hate: to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest:

Any moral person would obviously feel this.
I will agree any moral person would feel anger, hate disdain etc if that where to happen. Any person would including the majority of Muslims.

As for the US inviting them in. It is actually quite difficult to come into the US without a sponsor or a Job. We also have tight restrictions on the number of immigrants allowed from each nation.

It is not easy for a refugee to come to the US and the number allowed is limited

Quote:
Immigration Basics

Who Is an Immigrant?

According to U.S. law, an immigrant is a foreign-born individual who has been admitted to reside permanently in the United States as a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR).

How Do Immigrants Get Admitted to Permanently Reside Here?

Typically, a foreign-born individual seeking to become an LPR can do so in one of three ways:

Through family-sponsored immigration, a U.S. citizen can sponsor his or her foreign-born spouse, parent (if the sponsor is over the age of 21), minor and adult married and unmarried children, and brothers and sisters. A Lawful Permanent Resident can sponsor his or her spouse, minor children, and adult unmarried children. Our immigration system divides the family members eligible for sponsorship into two tiers. Immediate relatives of U.S. citizens—that is, spouses, unmarried minor children and parents, but not brothers and sisters or unmarried and married adult children—are admitted as their applications are processed.

Through employment-based immigration, a U.S. employer can sponsor an individual for a specific position where there is a demonstrated absence of U.S. workers.

By winning one of a limited number of immigrant visas available in the annual diversity visa lottery that is open to immigrants from certain countries.

- See more at: Justice for Immigrants | Immigration Basics


using just Syria as an example

Quote:
Since the start of the Syrian war, the United States has accepted 1,500 refugees — most of them this year. It could take in 8,000 next year. Many are asking why the U.S. isn't doing more.

Many Question Why The U.S. Isn't Taking In More Syrian Refugees : NPR



Quote:
Josh Earnest, the White House press secretary, said in a briefing Thursday that while the administration was continuing to examine responses to a refugee crisis that has overwhelmed Europe in recent days, the president has decided to raise the number of Syrian refugees admitted to at least 10,000 in the fiscal year beginning in October from fewer than 2,000 this year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/wo...-refugees.html

As we do not ask their religious beliefs we do not know how many of them will be Muslim probably most are Muslim, but there are also Christian Syrian refugees.
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Old 11-09-2015, 07:37 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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"I will agree any moral person would feel anger, hate disdain etc if that where to happen. Any person would including the majority of Muslims."

Yet Muslims think a man who had sex with a 9 year old child, owned and traded slaves, let his men mass rape women (with allah's approval), demanded hate and slaughter of 'disbelievers', made babies and children suck on his tongue, etc etc....is a prophet and example to follow. How is that moral? And no Muslim will say that Muhammed was evil to do these things. That was the most shocking thing to me when I started talking with Muslims. Their absolute refusal to judge Muhammed. They knew he had sex with a child, but gave a flood of excuses. Culture, Aisha was a mature woman at 9 years old, her father made Muhammed do it, every other man was doing it....the list went on and on. Same with mass rape of captives and selling women and owning slaves and all the rest.

And, we are seeing masses of Muslims enter Western countries and act horribly. It's not just a few.
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