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Old 01-30-2016, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Do you agree the sole authoritative texts of Islam is the Complete, Perfect and final Quran and nothing else?


Your use of "perform" is very misleading.
"Performance" do not have a direct link to what Allah intended.
Your phrase "Perform Islam" is very odd and weird.


The Quran is a reminder from Allah to command mankind to be a Muslim as an adherent of Islam.
Whatever necessary is stipulated in this verse;
5:3 This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
When Allah stated Allah has perfected and completed a religion [Islam] for Muslims, it would imply Allah has already covered what is to be performed, albeit not in details. The details are secondary.


When you say the Quran do not teach one how to perform Islam, it is weird and contradict 5:3 and thus you are implying Allah is incompetent and incomplete.


My point is the Quran is complete, perfect, final as proclaimed by Allah and that imply it covers all it take for one to be the best Muslim.


As for the Ahadiths which may guide Muslims to perform this or that act, but it has no divine authority with Allah and Islam.
Quote:
Do you agree the sole authoritative texts of Islam is the Complete, Perfect and final Quran and nothing else?
Those are separate questions run together

I do not agree the Qur'an is the sole authoritative texts of Islam. If that were the case there would not have been Muslims prior to the Qur'an. But we are told that Adam(a.s.) and all the Prophets along with their apostles and disciples were Muslim.

It would also mean Muslims are required to read the Qur'an, there is no such obligation. One can be a Muslim without every seeing the Qur'an. The second a person says the Shahadah with sinceirty they are a Muslim, even if they never even heard of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is final and complete, the complete being it will never be revealed again, it is over, the revelations are finished. It is now sink or swim time. Allaah(swt) is not going to throw us any more life preservers or ropes. We are in the deep end of the pool and we had best learn how to swim.

But the Qur'an is not an instruction manual on how to perform Islam, it tells us why not how.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Those are separate questions run together
I do not agree the Qur'an is the sole authoritative texts of Islam.
Then you as a Muslim is going against the words of Allah as stipulated in 5:3 and as final in other verses.


Quote:
If that were the case there would not have been Muslims prior to the Qur'an. But we are told that Adam(a.s.) and all the Prophets along with their apostles and disciples were Muslim.
Yes, there were Muslims before Muhammad.
But the point is their messages and texts from Allah have been lost or corrupted, thus whatever is available at present are all false where they differ from the Quran.
Therefore the ONLY complete, perfect Quran it is [as delivered to Muhammad via Gabriel] is the final authoritative texts from Allah.
Muslims claimed the present Quran represent the pristine unadulterated texts delivered to Muhammad.



Quote:
It would also mean Muslims are required to read the Qur'an, there is no such obligation. One can be a Muslim without every seeing the Qur'an. The second a person says the Shahadah with sinceirty they are a Muslim, even if they never even heard of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is final and complete, the complete being it will never be revealed again, it is over, the revelations are finished. It is now sink or swim time. Allaah(swt) is not going to throw us any more life preservers or ropes. We are in the deep end of the pool and we had best learn how to swim.

But the Qur'an is not an instruction manual on how to perform Islam, it tells us why not how.
No, it does not mean read, but it meant all Muslims must know the Quran.
That is why Allah deliberately mentioned the Quran is supposed to be easy to read in the local language so that all can understand easily, if not the majority.


This imply the Quran was solely for the Arabs and Allah will deliver the Quran in the language of the people, i.e. Mandarin Quran in China, Sanskrit in India, Russian in Russia, etc.
Therefore something must be very wrong when the Quran in Arabic was spread over the non-Arabic world and require translation.
I think we need to raise an OP to discuss this contradiction.


When a Muslim enter into the covenant with Allah, obviously the Muslim has the onus to know what are the terms and conditions which are in the Quran.
If a person cannot read the Quran and do not understand, then he must refer and trust the expert to tell him what are the relevant terms and conditions of the covenant.


This is where the Ahadiths come in as a guide and not as any thing divinely authoritative. Because the Ahadiths are not the original message of Allah, a person who rely of the Ahadith face the risk of getting the wrong message and incurring the wrath of Allah on Judgment Day.


Note for example the Hadith on 'stoning to death for adultery' is not in the Quran and therefore those who 'stone adulterers to death' would be punished in Hell on Judgment Day.
It is the same for any Hadiths that are not in the Quran and do not comply with the gist of the Quran.


The point is when a Muslims trust an expert, s/he risk learning and knowing the wrong message of Allah's words. It is very common where experts are wrong in interpreting the Quran.
To avoid the risk then one must read the Quran, i.e. Allah's words directly instead of trusting another person. This is why I force my self to read & research the Quran directly instead of reading from secondary sources.


Quote:
It would also mean Muslims are required to read the Qur'an, there is no such obligation. One can be a Muslim without every seeing the Qur'an. The second a person says the Shahadah with sinceirty they are a Muslim, even if they never even heard of the Qur'an.
You don't seem to get the main point here.


All Muslims are duty bound within the covenant with Allah to know [by reading, listening, sign language, etc.] the Quran.
Now when a potential Muslim recite the Shahadah, it can only mean s/he must have learned that from someone who has read the Quran directly or heard it from a source.
Therefore the logic and essence is no one can be a Muslim without knowing [reading, etc.] the Quran or relying on someone who has read the original perfect, complete and final Quran.
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Old 02-09-2016, 05:55 AM
 
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In the Qur'a n, it is always obey "messenger" and never obey "Muhammad". Did Allah forget the name of the messenger when saying obey "messenger"? One has to use his brain to understand the Qur'an.
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Old 02-09-2016, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In the Qur'a n, it is always obey "messenger" and never obey "Muhammad". Did Allah forget the name of the messenger when saying obey "messenger"? One has to use his brain to understand the Qur'an.
I agree with the above.


When Allah commanded 'obey the messenger' he meant obey the messenger who happened to be Muhammad as far as Muhammad the messenger is referring to matters of the Quran and not his personal matters.
Thus 'obey the messenger' meant obey Muhammad when he step into the role of a messenger.
It does not mean Muslims must obey Muhammad when he was acting as a ordinary human person who went about his daily human activities.


I have given this analogy many times;
When employees are commanded to obey the General Manager or his superior, that is only within the confine of the company rules and within official hours.
Outside office or company hours or scope there is no obligation for any employee [secretary] to obey the General Manager, example if he demanded sex from her or other non-company matters.
A General Manager wears many hats in various circumstances, within official company hours he is the General Manager, at home he wear the hat of a father and family man, outside office hours he is merely an ordinary Joes and his employees has not obligations to obey him during this time.


It is the same of Muhammad who wears many hats, i.e. as a messenger of God, as a family man, a merchant, a War General, and ordinary Qureshi Joe.
Muslims need to obey Muhammad as the messenger in compliance with the Quran only, and not when his is involved in his other activities. There may be overlaps so Muslims must distinguish the respective functions.
The problem is the Sunnah contain a full range of Muhammad activities as a messenger [reminder, warner, conveyor of the Quran only], the trader, the family man, the War General, the judge, etc. Therefore one cannot consider the Sunnah [whole] as having divine authority from Allah.


Quote:
One has to use his brain to understand the Qur'an.
I agree with this but there are constraints and limitations with believers as majority of Muslims are not men of understanding as expressed in the Quran;

2:269. He giveth wisdom unto whom He will, and he [Muslim] unto whom wisdom is given, he truly hath received abundant good But none remember except men of understanding.
The fact is the majority of Muslims are not sufficiently competent to use their brain to reflect on the words of Allah. The majority has no choice but to rely heavily on faith to trust the interpretations of the scholars, clergies, etc. who are more often wrong than right.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many verses in the Quran that exhort the Muslims to do following 'Obey Allah and obey the messenger.'
Here is one. [nb: mine]
24:54. Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye [Muslims] turn away, then (it is) for him [Muhammad] (to do) only that wherewith he [Muhammad] hath been charged [to do], and for you [Muslim] (to do) only that wherewith ye [Muslim] have been charged [to do]. If ye [Muslim] obey him, ye will go aright.
But the messenger [Muhammad] hath no other charge [duty] than to convey (the message), plainly.

Many Muslim scholars extend the above to support total validity of the Sunnah, i.e. if a Muslim must obey the messenger as Allah insists, then the Muslim must also obey all the sayings of Muhammad literally and unconditionally.

I do not support the views of the Koranists, i.e. only the Quran matters. I agree the Hadiths and Sira are relevant but they must comply with the primary source of Allah's words, i.e. the Quran-MGA-610.

Therefore when Allah command 'obey Allah and obey the messenger' he meant obey as far as the Quran is applicable.
There is no way Allah would agree that a Muslim obey whatever Muhammad
I have studied the Qur'an in depth. "Obey Allah and obey the messenger" or "obey Allah and his messenger" is never meant, "obey Allah and obey Muhammad" or "obey Allah and Muhammad".

All such verses say obey "messenger" but never obey "Muhammad". Allah always chooses His words correctly. He did not choose the word "Muhammad" but "messenger" for a reason. He wanted us to obey only whatever was in the Message from Allah that was delivered by the messenger. Therefore, all such verses are simply saying to obey whatever is commanded in the message that is delivered by the messenger. The ignorant clerics and so-called scholars are foolishly ignoring the context of all such verses which shows that they are all hadith freaks and they do not study the Qur'an in depth.

Muhammad had ordered his adopted son Zaid not to divorce his then wife Zainab. Zaid did not obey Muhammad and had divorced his wife. Zaid knew very well that "obey the messenger" is not the same as "obey Muhammad".
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Old 02-10-2016, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I have studied the Qur'an in depth. "Obey Allah and obey the messenger" or "obey Allah and his messenger" is never meant, "obey Allah and obey Muhammad" or "obey Allah and Muhammad".

All such verses say obey "messenger" but never obey "Muhammad". Allah always chooses His words correctly. He did not choose the word "Muhammad" but "messenger" for a reason. He wanted us to obey only whatever was in the Message from Allah that was delivered by the messenger. Therefore, all such verses are simply saying to obey whatever is commanded in the message that is delivered by the messenger. The ignorant clerics and so-called scholars are foolishly ignoring the context of all such verses which shows that they are all hadith freaks and they do not study the Qur'an in depth.
I have also studied the Quran in depth with detailed analysis verse by verse, i.e. full time, average 6 hours a day for almost 12 months. In addition I refer to 40++ English translations of the Quran whenever there is any doubts on the translation. Woodrow LI had also been very helpful on the Arabic terms, etc.
I put the 6,236 verses of the Quran in one column in Excel Spreadsheet and analyze across 300++ columns of main and sub-concepts.
I don't claim to be an expert but at least I know the Quran reasonably more than the majority of non-Muslims.


Actually it is rational principles and common wisdom that Allah meant obey the messenger and specifically the message of the messenger.
The Quran emphasized many times Muhammad is merely a warner, conveyor of the message, deliver good tidings, deliver the reminder of Allah.


When Muhammad is not reciting the message of Allah, he was just like any ordinary human being who is vulnerable to commit sins and make errors.
The Ahadith are filtered, reviewed, and compiled from more than 700,000 individual hadiths by various people relating the activities, behaviors and his sayings. No matter how the hadiths are authenticated they are not the direct message of Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad.


However, my view is whatever hadiths or any statement that is to be taken as Islamic, its main message must comply with that of the Quran and nothing else.
Therefore if there is a hadith that stated a Muslimah need to cover her cleavage and no need to cover her head and hair, then this is acceptable because such a requirement comply with what Allah stated in the Quran.


Quote:
Muhammad had ordered his adopted son Zaid not to divorce his then wife Zainab. Zaid did not obey Muhammad and had divorced his wife. Zaid knew very well that "obey the messenger" is not the same as "obey Muhammad".
I have reservation with this.
It is correct what Zaid did was in compliance with the verses and message of Quran from Allah.


As a non-theist I do not believe God exists as real.
What I believe is the Quran was authored by Muhammad or a group of men in the 7th century.
In the Zaid's case I believe it was Muhammad who authored those verses and put it as if it is Allah's words. In reality it was Muhammad's intention.
Generally it would be very immoral to marry [hijack] one's adopted son [usually recognized emotionally as one's real son] wife. Besides at that time Muhammad already had other wives. So the who affair was most likely to be driven by lust if one view it from the perspective of human nature.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-10-2016 at 08:46 PM..
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Old 02-11-2016, 01:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have also studied the Quran in depth with detailed analysis verse by verse, i.e. full time, average 6 hours a day for almost 12 months.
The Qur'an wasn't revealed in 12 months for a reason. It was revealed gradually over a period of 22 years. They would not have understood the Qur'an fully if it had been revealed at once or even in 12 months. 12 months of study is not enough. I began to study the Qur'an seriously 16 years ago and am still doing it, having repeated the study 7 times. Even after studying it 6 times, i found something new the seventh time. This is the uniqueness of the book of Allah. It needs to be studied again and again to fully appreciate it.
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Old 02-11-2016, 01:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As a non-theist I do not believe God exists as real.
Then you have to say that you have been studying a load of lies (the Qur'an) presented as from God.

I do believe that uncreated God exists as real or else nothing would have existed today at all.
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Old 02-11-2016, 02:03 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However, my view is whatever hadiths or any statement that is to be taken as Islamic, its main message must comply with that of the Quran and nothing else.
Therefore if there is a hadith that stated a Muslimah need to cover her cleavage and no need to cover her head and hair, then this is acceptable because such a requirement comply with what Allah stated in the Quran.
Then what is need for any hadith other than Allah's Hadith (the Qur'an)?
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
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ISIS are mostly decendants of the Asyrians although some of its paid mercenaries are from a scattered Arab lineage. Boko are
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