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Old 02-12-2016, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then you have to say that you have been studying a load of lies (the Qur'an) presented as from God.

I do believe that uncreated God exists as real or else nothing would have existed today at all.
Note the main project of my research is;


1. How to resolve, prevent and reduce ALL Evils of the World.


2. All Evils of the World comprise of the following;
i. Secular Evils
ii. Religion related/inspired Evils


3. I am dealing with Secular Evils elsewhere.
In this forum I am discussing 'Religion related/inspired Evils.


4. In my research, I noted empirically the most critical problem that warrant attention with 'Religion related/inspired Evil is from Islam and SOME evil prone Muslims.


5. If you are familiar with research, thesis or dissertations, you will note for 4 I will have to dig deep to find the root causes and offer solutions.
To do credible research it is imperative that I study the root source of Islam, i.e. the Quran. This is why I am forced to spent so much time studying the Quran and researching related matters on Islam. To be credible and comment on Islam and Muslims I have to be a reasonable expert on the Quran.
Otherwise the common defenses of any Muslims to tear down the views of non-Muslims critiquing & commenting on Islam is; Have you read the Quran? Do you know Arabic? You are Islamophobic, etc.


6. At his point I am not interested in saying what is in the Quran are lies [in a certain perspective yes]. All I am interested is 'what is Islam' and 'what it takes to be a Muslim' in accordance to the original words of Allah as conveyed to Muhammad via Gabriel starting in 610AD till 632AD.


7. Note to do my project and research rigorously understanding the Quran is not enough, one has to be equipped with all other relevant knowledge, e.g. human nature, psychology, general philosophy, philosophy of religion & spirituality, linguistic, advance neuroscience, various sciences, and many other fields of necessary knowledge.


8. I have started a thread somewhere on why "it is with 100% certainty it is impossible for God to exists as real."
The only necessary reason for believing in an illusory God is to soothe the terrible subliminal psychology and pains suffered by the theists. Note I am not going into detail on this here [off topic].
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then what is need for any hadith other than Allah's Hadith (the Qur'an)?
It is definitely possible Muhammad did explain and expound to some less learned followers from what he understood from the message his received from Allah via Gabriel.


Therefore there is no issue if those who heard and learned from him communicated to others and later they were recorded by others.
It is likely these expounded interpretations [Hadith] are easily understood by the common people instead to reading the original Quran.
As you are aware those exposition related to Muhammad are called Hadith while those by other scholars are tafsirs, commentaries, etc.


But regardless whether it is Hadith, tafsir, commentaries, etc. they must comply with the main elements and principles of the words of Allah in the Quran.


Any Muslims or even non-Muslim can make a Quranic statement [not a ruling or law] as long as it comply with the words of Allah in the Quran.
If I say, "a Muslimah must cover her cleavage" or even advise a Muslimah to do so; there is nothing wrong with it at all. If she is doubtful I can quote her the relevant verses from the Quran and she can verify it with others.
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Old 02-12-2016, 04:53 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the main project of my research is;


1. How to resolve, prevent and reduce ALL Evils of the World.


2. All Evils of the World comprise of the following;
i. Secular Evils
ii. Religion related/inspired Evils


3. I am dealing with Secular Evils elsewhere.
In this forum I am discussing 'Religion related/inspired Evils.


4. In my research, I noted empirically the most critical problem that warrant attention with 'Religion related/inspired Evil is from Islam and SOME evil prone Muslims.


5. If you are familiar with research, thesis or dissertations, you will note for 4 I will have to dig deep to find the root causes and offer solutions.
To do credible research it is imperative that I study the root source of Islam, i.e. the Quran. This is why I am forced to spent so much time studying the Quran and researching related matters on Islam. To be credible and comment on Islam and Muslims I have to be a reasonable expert on the Quran.
Otherwise the common defenses of any Muslims to tear down the views of non-Muslims critiquing & commenting on Islam is; Have you read the Quran? Do you know Arabic? You are Islamophobic, etc.


6. At his point I am not interested in saying what is in the Quran are lies [in a certain perspective yes]. All I am interested is 'what is Islam' and 'what it takes to be a Muslim' in accordance to the original words of Allah as conveyed to Muhammad via Gabriel starting in 610AD till 632AD.


7. Note to do my project and research rigorously understanding the Quran is not enough, one has to be equipped with all other relevant knowledge, e.g. human nature, psychology, general philosophy, philosophy of religion & spirituality, linguistic, advance neuroscience, various sciences, and many other fields of necessary knowledge.


8. I have started a thread somewhere on why "it is with 100% certainty it is impossible for God to exists as real."
The only necessary reason for believing in an illusory God is to soothe the terrible subliminal psychology and pains suffered by the theists. Note I am not going into detail on this here [off topic].
I will try to help you in this matter.

1. Evil is something or someone's action that will harm us in this world. It can be reduced or even prevented in many cases but it cannot be completely eliminated from this world. Evil, in other words, is opposite of good. Can we eliminate good from this world? Eliminating evil is just as hard as eliminating good. Both are here forever. Only the good can counteract evil, the reason evil cannot counteract evil.
Human being is weak (not perfect) and prone to making mistakes leading to evil action. This can be counteracted only if the human being is educated in fighting evil with good. In Islamic term, it is not easy but real jihad (struggle). Therefore, it is not bombs or guns that are going to reduce evil but education how to do jihad against it within our self.

2. Evils are neither secular nor religious. Evil is simply opposite of good. In secular world, it is assumed self interests that lead to evil and in religious world it is lack of religious knowledge or misguided understanding of the knowledge. Just as half knowledge of a medical student can kill someone, half religious knowledge can make one do evil action and kill someone. Both the secular people and religious people can be good people or evil people depending on their actions. Purpose of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is to counteract evil with good. It is not religion that is evil but actions of some half religious people.

3. It is not religious inspired but due to lack of or shortage of religious knowlege. I have seem Muslims getting angry when Islam tells them to be humble and have patience. Their anger is not due to religion but due to their lack of religious knowledge. Terrorists, for example, are in need of Islamic education rather than from the bombs being dropped from the sky on them. What is easier, fighting fire with fire or fighting it with water?

4. If it is only with SOME Muslims then it cannot be due to Islam but due to the lack of Islam in them. Unfortunately, the politicians are utterly ignorant in understanding this obvious fact about these SOME Muslims.

5. Studying the Qur'an to find evil in Islam is not going to reveal any evil in Islam. Studying man-created hadith books are most likely to lead you to find source of evil in SOME Muslims. They are instructed in the Qur'an (a) not to believe any other hadith after the Hadith of Allah ( the Qur'an) and (b) not to break into sects (be divided). They have done both actions. Therefore, they are not "Islamic terrorists" but in fact unislamic terrorists acting against the teachings of the Qur'an. No matter how long and deep you study the Qur'an the correct conclusion would be the one I have just described. Trust me, any other conclusion would have shortcomings.

6. Islam is simply an action of obeying the commands from Allah/God. These commands are for our benefits rather than Allah is in need of us obeying them. Obeying the commands is the only religion/way/deen ordained by God from the outset. Names of Adam's, Noah's, Abraham's, of Moses and Jesus or Muhammad may be different but the fundamental action stressed each time is the same. It is lack of that action that creates evil.

7. The main components are (a) what is instructed by God in terms of the fundamental message to the human beings and (b) why the instructions are rejected, misuderstood, or twisted.

8. I don't believe in God because of the reason you have described. I believe in God because there would have been no existence without an uncreated God. Nothing can't create anything and nothing can be created from nothing. The only rational conclusion is that there must be an uncreated God who created the rest.

Existence of God is indicated by our existence. Do you believe that man is not just body but spirit as well? Just as you can't see spirit, you can't see God. The universe cannot be just an accident. Man's brain isn't an accident. There is so much around us that it is impossible to be all an accident. The day a man or some men can create all that, I will join you in believing that there is no real God.
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Old 02-12-2016, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'an wasn't revealed in 12 months for a reason. It was revealed gradually over a period of 22 years. They would not have understood the Qur'an fully if it had been revealed at once or even in 12 months. 12 months of study is not enough. I began to study the Qur'an seriously 16 years ago and am still doing it, having repeated the study 7 times. Even after studying it 6 times, i found something new the seventh time. This is the uniqueness of the book of Allah. It needs to be studied again and again to fully appreciate it.
6-7 times??
Not sure what you meant by this?
You meant you read the chapter 1-114 of the whole Quran six to seven times in 16 years?


In the 12 months I have read the whole of the Quran at least 50 times perhaps more. It take me about 2 days to read the full Quran from Chapter 1-114. At times it take longer because I scrutinize each verse in minute details to grasp its essence and elements so I can categorize each verse.


I can read the Quran fast because I read it Chronologically, i.e. along the life of Muhammad from the Mecca phase to the Medina phase.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronolog...the_Qur'an
I adopt Noldeke's Chronological Order with some changes from my own understanding.
As I mentioned I put the Quran 6,236 verses in an Excel Spreadsheet thus can sort it by any order and I keep different orders in different files.
I also have column with a summary of each verse and another column for each idea [paragraph].


As I had mentioned elsewhere I just don't read the Quran alone but assess it against a whole range of other knowledge, e.g. human nature, humanity, general philosophy, philosophy of religion/spirituality, comparison with other religions, psychology, etc. etc. and whatever is relevant to arrive at the universal truths which override Islamic truths [which at times has two truths].
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Old 02-12-2016, 03:24 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

In the 12 months I have read the whole of the Quran at least 50 times perhaps more. It take me about 2 days to read the full Quran from Chapter 1-114. At times it take longer because I scrutinize each verse in minute details to grasp its essence and elements so I can categorize each verse.


I can read the Quran fast because I read it Chronologically, i.e. along the life of Muhammad from the Mecca phase to the Medina phase.
That's far too fast and even wrong way of studying the Qur'an. Full Arabic Qur'an 50 times with 40++ translations and even scrutinzing each verse with 40++ translations in 12 months is unbelievably fast. It gives no chance to fully ponder over the verses. Are you a machine or a person? :-)

There is no correct Chronological record available for each verse. Even in each chapter there is mixture of verses from Madina and from Mecca.

You will be better off collecting ALL verses on the same subject and then understanding the collective meaning. It was revealed over a period of 22 years for a reason. The Qur'an is not from Muhammad himself. Studying Muhammad to study the Qur'an from the outset is wrong starting point. It is better to link the Qur'anic revelation with previous revealed books to understand the Qur'an rather than linking it to a man to understand it. Writings of people about the life of Muhammad cannot give you understanding of the Qur'an. If you think from the outset that any part of the Qur'an is from Muhammad himself only then your study is bound to be a failure. Muhammad's duty was only to deliver the message (the Qur'an). Our duty is to understand it.

By the way, 6 or 7 times means initially during the first 2 to 3 years and then subjectwise during the rest of the time, even now. You say that you have read it 50 times in 12 months. Can you tell me why an aduletress cannot be stoned to death according to the Qur'an?
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Old 02-12-2016, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's far too fast and even wrong way of studying the Qur'an. Full Arabic Qur'an 50 times with 40++ translations and even scrutinzing each verse with 40++ translations in 12 months is unbelievably fast. It gives no chance to fully ponder over the verses. Are you a machine or a person? :-)

There is no correct Chronological record available for each verse. Even in each chapter there is mixture of verses from Madina and from Mecca.

You will be better off collecting ALL verses on the same subject and then understanding the collective meaning. It was revealed over a period of 22 years for a reason. The Qur'an is not from Muhammad himself. Studying Muhammad to study the Qur'an from the outset is wrong starting point. It is better to link the Qur'anic revelation with previous revealed books to understand the Qur'an rather than linking it to a man to understand it. Writings of people about the life of Muhammad cannot give you understanding of the Qur'an. If you think from the outset that any part of the Qur'an is from Muhammad himself only then your study is bound to be a failure. Muhammad's duty was only to deliver the message (the Qur'an). Our duty is to understand it.

By the way, 6 or 7 times means initially during the first 2 to 3 years and then subjectwise during the rest of the time, even now. You say that you have read it 50 times in 12 months. Can you tell me why an aduletress cannot be stoned to death according to the Qur'an?
Very good points.

I read it in Arabic and try to read with Tajweed. It takes about an hour to read one Juz. Reading one Juz a day with reflection requires a full month for each reading of the Qur'an. But that is not a study, it is simply an act of love of the Qur'an. For a serious study one needs to go far beyond not only seeking ones own opinions but also contemplating each ayyat and seeking the Tafsir of others. 10 years or even longer may be a reasonable expectation for an in depth study.by many students.
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Old 02-12-2016, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's far too fast and even wrong way of studying the Qur'an. Full Arabic Qur'an 50 times with 40++ translations and even scrutinzing each verse with 40++ translations in 12 months is unbelievably fast. It gives no chance to fully ponder over the verses. Are you a machine or a person? :-)
I don't think you have the competency to judge my intellectual capabilities.


The reality is:
I have been researching into religion, spirituality, philosophy, human nature and many other fields of knowledge since very young. I have read at least 3,000 physical books in my personal library on these subjects. I have other lots of other books and those related to my career.
Even electronically I have 4500+ files in my 'Religion' Folders and 7,500 files in the Philosophy Folder. Most of these are electronic books. There are many other books in the other folders of various fields, i.e. human nature, Science, psychology, etc.


Before I came on to Islam at present, I was focusing full time on Kant for almost 3 years and prior to that Buddhism for 2+ years.


My strength is in Philosophy [Eastern and Western], Religion & Spirituality with average comprehension on a wide range of fields of knowledge. So reading the Quran and analyzing it quickly with reasonable understanding was not too difficult.


Btw, for the significant books, I just down read them from the books, I download and convert them into Microsoft Words or Excel to highlight the critical parts and sort them where necessary.

Quote:
There is no correct Chronological record available for each verse. Even in each chapter there is mixture of verses from Madina and from Mecca.
Due to time and history it obvious we cannot get the exact Chronological order of the Chapters.
However with in depth analysis and reflection [one favorite word of the Quran] we can get as close as possible to the chronological order to match the life of Muhammad over his 23 years. The Medinian and Meccan verses can be quite accurately sorted. As for the mixture of Mecca and Medina verses in each chapter, we can mark them out individually in a Spreadsheet and sort all Mecca and Medina verses regardless of whatever chapter they are from. I have done that.

I fully recommend reading the Quran in chronological order at there is a realistic theme with the phased of Muhammad's life [which has to be chronological] in the background.


It is obvious after Muhammad's experience of altered states of consciousness, like any other religious or cult leaders, he started preaching mildly and patiently despite the mocking and rejections from the Qureshi, Jews and Christians.

As with the average human beings their personality changes with circumstances and so did Muhammad. After the mild preaching and being patient, Muhammad the earlier mild preacher [with 100+ followers] slowly turned more and more aggressive in the later part of his life in Medina into a War General [100,000 followers].
This transformation of the phases of Muhammad's personality can be gleaned from the chronological order of the chapters in the Quran.


Quote:
You will be better off collecting ALL verses on the same subject and then understanding the collective meaning. It was revealed over a period of 22 years for a reason. The Qur'an is not from Muhammad himself. Studying Muhammad to study the Qur'an from the outset is wrong starting point. It is better to link the Qur'anic revelation with previous revealed books to understand the Qur'an rather than linking it to a man to understand it. Writings of people about the life of Muhammad cannot give you understanding of the Qur'an. If you think from the outset that any part of the Qur'an is from Muhammad himself only then your study is bound to be a failure. Muhammad's duty was only to deliver the message (the Qur'an). Our duty is to understand it.
The Quran itself gave reasons why the chapters were revealed over 22 years instead of at one go.
In reality, I believe this has nothing to do with Allah intentions but it was revealed by Muhammad personally in his own phases of life and personality changes over 22 years.
If you read 100s of autobiographies of famous good and evil people one will understand this point.


As I had mentioned I have downloaded the 6,236 verses in one column in a Excel File [are you familiar with the very common Microsoft Excel program].
I have marked the verses with same subject and I have identified 300++ subjects and understanding them in the context of the full Quran. I am analyzing more refined subjects.
What subjects do you think I am likely to miss.


I have mentioned I am not an expert on the Quran yet.
What I am lacking is the ability to quickly and immediately respond with the set of verses related to each subject because Microsoft is not very efficient on this. I can do it but it will take time, i.e. an hour or so and I don't want to waste that sort of time here.
I need a more sophisticated program to do that.

Quote:
By the way, 6 or 7 times means initially during the first 2 to 3 years and then subjectwise during the rest of the time, even now. You say that you have read it 50 times in 12 months. Can you tell me why an aduletress cannot be stoned to death according to the Qur'an?
The terms, adulterer, adultery and adulteress are mentioned 3 time each in the Quran.


Note in 24:2 Allah stipulated the penalty for adultery is 'the flogging of 100 strokes', and no where in the Quran did Allah mentioned "stoning to death" for adultery.
24:2 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge [flog] ye [Muslims] each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain [adulterer and adulteress] withhold you [Muslims] from obedience to Allah, if ye [Muslims] believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers [Muslims] witness their punishment.
Any more challenge?


Here is one easy challenge for you.
Allah exhort all Muslims to compete with one another in the Quran.
The best are graded into different categories and rewarded accordingly on Judgment Day.
Which are the specific verses to the above.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-12-2016 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think you have the competency to judge my intellectual capabilities.
I don't have the competency to judge anyone's intellectual capabilities but you are making it clear to me that you are judging the Qur'an with wrong tools.

For example, accusation against Muhammad that he did not fight until he had more than 100 followers and thus tune of the verses changed is the wrong tool to understand the Qur'an. Do you know why he did not fight the Meccans when he had more than 10,000 Muslims with him but forgave the Meccans after all those years of persecution when the Meccans' heads could have been rolling on the ground with just one signal of Muhammad?
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The terms, adulterer, adultery and adulteress are mentioned 3 time each in the Quran.


Note in 24:2 Allah stipulated the penalty for adultery is 'the flogging of 100 strokes', and no where in the Quran did Allah mentioned "stoning to death" for adultery.
[indent]24:2 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge [flog] ye [Muslims] each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain [adulterer and adulteress] withhold you [Muslims] from obedience to Allah, if ye [Muslims] believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers [Muslims] witness their punishment.
The question was why not the stoning to death according to the Qur'an rather than what is punishment for adultery according to the Qur'an.

The hadith freaks argue that flogging is for unmarried and stoning to death for married women who commit adultery. How do you counter their argument using another verse of the Qur'an?
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:41 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is one easy challenge for you.
Allah exhort all Muslims to compete with one another in the Quran.
The best are graded into different categories and rewarded accordingly on Judgment Day.
Which are the specific verses to the above.
Muslims are not exhorted to compete with each other. That is not the goal for Muslims in the Qur'an. Perhaps you are thinking of Muslims being exhorted to strive hard to do more good deeds in relation to the good deeds of the People of the Book, as if we were in a race with them in doing good deeds.

On the day of judgment, winning the compeition won't matter but the weight of good and bad deeds.

As for the "best", they are the prophets, the truthful ones, the martyrs, the good ones and those who obey Allah and his messenger (4:69)
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