U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-13-2016, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Muslims are not exhorted to compete with each other. That is not the goal for Muslims in the Qur'an. Perhaps you are thinking of Muslims being exhorted to strive hard to do more good deeds in relation to the good deeds of the People of the Book, as if we were in a race with them in doing good deeds.

On the day of judgment, winning the compeition won't matter but the weight of good and bad deeds.

As for the "best", they are the prophets, the truthful ones, the martyrs, the good ones and those who obey Allah and his messenger (4:69)

True we are not in competition with each other.We all will be judged individually and in accordance with our own intentions, Abilities and knowledge. No Muslim is engaged in trying to outdo any other Muslim. We have no way of knowing what is in the heart and intentions of anyone except our self. What another receives has no bearing upon what we receive.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-13-2016, 02:48 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is definitely possible Muhammad did explain and expound to some less learned followers from what he understood from the message his received from Allah via Gabriel.
Hadith books are not explanation of the Qur'an by Muhammad but most ahadith have nothing to do with the Qur'an.

Further, it was not the job of Muhammad to "explan" the Qur'an" but only deliver the message as he received and obey whatever was commanded through the message. Allah had made it clear to Muhammad that it was his duty only to deliver it and explaining the message was up to Him (Allah).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2016, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Muslims are not exhorted to compete with each other. That is not the goal for Muslims in the Qur'an. Perhaps you are thinking of Muslims being exhorted to strive hard to do more good deeds in relation to the good deeds of the People of the Book, as if we were in a race with them in doing good deeds.

On the day of judgment, winning the compeition won't matter but the weight of good and bad deeds.

As for the "best", they are the prophets, the truthful ones, the martyrs, the good ones and those who obey Allah and his messenger (4:69)
You are wrong on the above.


There are many verses in the Quran where Muslims are exhorted to compete with one another to gain better rewards in Paradise.
Here are some relevant verses: in [] = mine.
67:2. Who hath created life and death that He may try you, which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, Forgiving.


23:61. These [proto -Muslims] race for the good things, and they shall win them in the race.


17:21. See how We [Allah] prefer one above another [Muslim], and verily the Hereafter will be greater in degrees and greater in preferment.


18:7. Lo! We have placed all that is in the earth as an ornament thereof that we may try them [all people]: which of them is best in conduct.
There are many other such verses relating to competition by Muslims, I have marked them with this category "compete."


There are also many verses that imply competing Muslims will reap and be rewarded according to what they sowed on Earth.
Here is one very obvious one;


56:7. And ye [people] will be three kinds:
56:8. (First) those [Muslims] on the right hand; what of those on the right hand?
56:9. And (then -2nd) those [infidels & sinners] on the left hand; what of those on the left hand?
56:10. And [3rd] the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:
56:11. Those [3rd] are they [1st class Muslims] who will be brought nigh [and rewarded as follows]
56:12-26 In gardens of delight; ....
Therefore it matter on Judgment Day as to what level of Paradise a Muslim will go to depending on the efforts his put in obedience to Allah's words in the Quran.


In my copy of the electronic Quran in Excel, I have added a lot of notes in [] parenthesis, so don't accuse me of merely reading and not study, reflecting and understanding the Quran. They also facilitate my reading speed of the Quran.

In any case, from another perspective and objectively, I understand the above verses that supposedly imply Allah exhorted Muslims to compete are actually Muhammad's own words to generate loyalty from his followers under the threat of Hell and rewards in paradise [carrot and stick method of motivation and leadership].



Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I will try to help you in this matter.
Thanks for the offer, but based on your posting so far, I don't think you are of much help on this particular matter.

Quote:
1. Evil is something or someone's action that will harm us in this world. It can be reduced or even prevented in many cases but it cannot be completely eliminated from this world. Evil, in other words, is opposite of good. Can we eliminate good from this world? Eliminating evil is just as hard as eliminating good. Both are here forever. Only the good can counteract evil, the reason evil cannot counteract evil.
Human being is weak (not perfect) and prone to making mistakes leading to evil action. This can be counteracted only if the human being is educated in fighting evil with good. In Islamic term, it is not easy but real jihad (struggle). Therefore, it is not bombs or guns that are going to reduce evil but education how to do jihad against it within our self.
I have done very extensive philosophical research on the subject of secular 'evil' that cover a lots of grounds.


I have defined 'evil' as an act or thought that is net-negative to the optimal well being of the individual, groups and humanity.
Evil is opposite of Good, but what is good? Good to one may not be good to another. I have also done extensive research on the topic of "what is good?"


The fact is DNA wise ALL human beings are potentially evil.
I raised a thread to discuss this.
ALL Human Beings are Potentially Beastly and Evil
The problem within humanity is the majority of human has a low competence to control this potential.
It is very natural, a certain % say 20% human are very weak in controlling the evil potential. This is why these people should not be given a loaded gun nor be exposed to violent materials.


Education and exposure to knowledge are not very effective in enabling the very evil prone to control and modulate their evil potentials. Knowing and able to do are different matters.
What is necessary is the neurons in the brain of the person must be changed and connected accordingly to ensure a greater strength of control.
The most effective religions that can do this are those from the Eastern Religions, e.g. Buddhism.


Unfortunately Islam is not an effective religion to enhance the strength of impulse controls in the majority and critical the 20% of the weakest lots. Why and How? This is because Islam rely on the modus operand based on the triggering of the primal fear emotion in Muslims. When one is in fear all the time especially primal fears one cannot progress spiritually in an effective manner.
What is worst is in addition to stirring permanent fears [subliminal], the Quran is full of evil laden elements that influenced those full of fears evil prone Muslims that inspired [subliminally] them to commit terrible evils and violence.



Quote:
2. Evils are neither secular nor religious. Evil is simply opposite of good. In secular world, it is assumed self interests that lead to evil and in religious world it is lack of religious knowledge or misguided understanding of the knowledge. Just as half knowledge of a medical student can kill someone, half religious knowledge can make one do evil action and kill someone. Both the secular people and religious people can be good people or evil people depending on their actions. Purpose of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is to counteract evil with good. It is not religion that is evil but actions of some half religious people.
In the study of 'evil' there are definitely two types of 'evil' i.e. secular and theological.
Secular evil is what I have defined above.


Theological evil is not based directly on acts of humans but the ontological existence of something evil which is related to Satan and evil Jinns. Such an ontological evil has no place in the secular contexts.


The critical factor is not half-knowledge or empty knowledge that lead to evil.
Evil only manifest from evil prone humans who cannot control the inherent evil potential within themselves. These evil prone person can have all the knowledge [hollow, half or full] in the world, they will be compelled by the loose evil tendencies to commit evil.
So the critical factor here is the development of impulse control for those who can.
For those who cannot improve their evil impulse controls they should not be exposed to evil laden elements. This is why evils and violent contents are banned, censored or rated [e.g. PG].


The problem is the very evil elements which are ambiguous in the Quran are not censored and thus exposed to the Muslims who are by their own human nature evil due to lack of impulse controls in their brain.



Quote:
3. It is not religious inspired but due to lack of or shortage of religious knowlege. I have seem Muslims getting angry when Islam tells them to be humble and have patience. Their anger is not due to religion but due to their lack of religious knowledge. Terrorists, for example, are in need of Islamic education rather than from the bombs being dropped from the sky on them. What is easier, fighting fire with fire or fighting it with water?
Muslims who get angry are due to their lack of impulse controls of their anger emotions. If their lack of control of their anger is mild, it can be improved. But if the lack of control is serious then it is difficult for them to change other than to give them sedatives, etc. to control their anger and they should not be exposed to violent and evil material that can trigger them into committing evils.


Islamist terrorists are from the minority [note even minority we are talking of 300 million] who lack impulse controls of their anger, rage and killing instincts, etc.
In the first place, from a psychological perspective, these evil prone Muslims should not be exposed to the ambiguous evil laden verses in the Quran.



Quote:
4. If it is only with SOME Muslims then it cannot be due to Islam but due to the lack of Islam in them. Unfortunately, the politicians are utterly ignorant in understanding this obvious fact about these SOME Muslims.
On the contrary.
It is these SOME Muslims who lack impulse controls in their brain, thus evil prone, and they are exposed to the 6,236 verses [full of Islam] that their brains are fed with the ambiguous evil laden verses from the full Quran. Full Quran = Full Islam.


If we get rid of all the evils and violent elements from the Quran and Islam, there will be no opportunity for any Muslims to commit [rightly or wrongly] evil and violence in the name of Islam.



Quote:
5. Studying the Qur'an to find evil in Islam is not going to reveal any evil in Islam. Studying man-created hadith books are most likely to lead you to find source of evil in SOME Muslims. They are instructed in the Qur'an (a) not to believe any other hadith after the Hadith of Allah ( the Qur'an) and (b) not to break into sects (be divided). They have done both actions. Therefore, they are not "Islamic terrorists" but in fact unislamic terrorists acting against the teachings of the Qur'an. No matter how long and deep you study the Qur'an the correct conclusion would be the one I have just described. Trust me, any other conclusion would have shortcomings.
It is very obvious there are evil elements in the Quran's 6,236 verses. I have identified all of them in the Quran from 1-Low to 100-high. More that 55% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran contain at least low[1-25] evil elements.
As I had mentioned, I have done a thorough research into the topic of 'what is evil.'
So I know what are evil laden elements when I read and see them.


Trust you??
The fact is belief is based on faith, i.e. belief without reason nor proof thus can never be objective but definitely subjective. One cannot place a high level of trust on matter of faith.
I have approach the study of the Quran on a objective basis as I do not have any inherent emotional and subjective vested interests in the Quran and Islam.


A believer's view of his own religion by default has to be bias and not objective [except very rare exceptions when qualified].
Note "Inoculation theory" [I have discussed with Woodrow on this point], confirmation bias, attentive blindness and all sort of necessary biasness to reinforce the belief of a believer.


I shall address the other points later.
(in a rush thus no review, pls excuse any grammatically errors above)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-14-2016, 02:55 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thanks for the offer, but based on your posting so far, I don't think you are of much help on this particular matter.

I have done very extensive philosophical research on the subject of secular 'evil' that cover a lots of grounds.


I have defined 'evil' as an act or thought that is net-negative to the optimal well being of the individual, groups and humanity.
Evil is opposite of Good, but what is good? Good to one may not be good to another. I have also done extensive research on the topic of "what is good?"


The fact is DNA wise ALL human beings are potentially evil.
You are saying nothing different from what I have stated but in different words. All human beings are potential evil is not different from all human beings are prone to making mistakes. Any human being can be good as well as evil. This trait is not confined to only Muslims.

I am not going to be any help to you if you don't want to understand Islamic point of view. If you want to stick to your views, (a) all human beings are potential evil and (b) only 20% of Muslims are evil prone then you are beyond cure in your established views about evil, Islam, the Qur'an and Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-14-2016, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are saying nothing different from what I have stated but in different words. All human beings are potential evil is not different from all human beings are prone to making mistakes. Any human being can be good as well as evil. This trait is not confined to only Muslims.
Not only in different words but in different depth of knowledge.
We have to understand what are the full machinery of that potential evil in ALL humans right into the neurons in the brains and body.
It is only by understanding the full machinery that we can take corrective actions.



Quote:
I am not going to be any help to you if you don't want to understand Islamic point of view. If you want to stick to your views, (a) all human beings are potential evil and (b) only 20% of Muslims are evil prone then you are beyond cure in your established views about evil, Islam, the Qur'an and Muslims.
Islamic view is nothing more than one aspect of human view.


You presented the following where (b) is wrong;
(a) all human beings are potential evil and
(b) only 20% of Muslims are evil prone


I did not say 'only' - where did I say that?




I stated and implied the following;
(a) DNA wise, ALL human beings are potentially evil and
(b) 20% of ALL humans (thus including Muslims) are evil prone.


The 20% of non-Muslims are evil prone by nature and they commit all sorts of secular evils which has no direct inspiration from any religious texts. This is why the jails are full to the brim these days.


The 20% of Muslims are evil prone by nature, and they also all commit all sorts of non-religious related evils [stealing, lying, etc.] BUT in ADDITION these 20% of Muslims are also exposed and triggered by evil laden elements from the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
This is why these 20% of Muslims [from a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims] are influenced and inspired by the evil elements from the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. I don't have to show because the evidence is also glaringly evident.


The additional problem is the evil elements in the Quran also influenced and inspired SOME [not all] supposedly good natured and inclined Muslims to turn evils when they get serious, pious and zealous over Islam. This is why we often hear of parents, relative and friends who suddenly read in the News that the child/friend who has been good all his life has become a suicide bomber.


What beyond cure??
What I have presented is very real and objective.
Show me where did I go wrong on the above?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-15-2016, 01:06 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Not only in different words but in different depth of knowledge.
We have to understand what are the full machinery of that potential evil in ALL humans right into the neurons in the brains and body.
It is only by understanding the full machinery that we can take corrective actions.



Islamic view is nothing more than one aspect of human view.


You presented the following where (b) is wrong;
(a) all human beings are potential evil and
(b) only 20% of Muslims are evil prone


I did not say 'only' - where did I say that?


I stated and implied the following;
(a) DNA wise, ALL human beings are potentially evil and
(b) 20% of ALL humans (thus including Muslims) are evil prone.


The 20% of non-Muslims are evil prone by nature and they commit all sorts of secular evils which has no direct inspiration from any religious texts. This is why the jails are full to the brim these days.


The 20% of Muslims are evil prone by nature, and they also all commit all sorts of non-religious related evils [stealing, lying, etc.] BUT in ADDITION these 20% of Muslims are also exposed and triggered by evil laden elements from the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
This is why these 20% of Muslims [from a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims] are influenced and inspired by the evil elements from the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. I don't have to show because the evidence is also glaringly evident.


The additional problem is the evil elements in the Quran also influenced and inspired SOME [not all] supposedly good natured and inclined Muslims to turn evils when they get serious, pious and zealous over Islam. This is why we often hear of parents, relative and friends who suddenly read in the News that the child/friend who has been good all his life has become a suicide bomber.


What beyond cure??
What I have presented is very real and objective.
Show me where did I go wrong on the above?
If, as you say, ALL human beings are potential evil then only 20% who are evil prone is not ALL human beings. You contradict yourself!

Islamic teaching is that man was created weak (not perfect) and, therefore, is prone to making mistakes. All human being make mistakes, all human beings are potential evil, you are potential evil, I am potential evil, all Muslims are potential evil, not just 20%.

Islamic view is the correct one and Islam's objective is to do jihad (struggle) against one's Self, to do good and forbid evil. You are beyond cure because you are not trying to understand the best way to fight evil in all evil prone people (including all Muslims).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-15-2016, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If, as you say, ALL human beings are potential evil then only 20% who are evil prone is not ALL human beings. You contradict yourself!

Islamic teaching is that man was created weak (not perfect) and, therefore, is prone to making mistakes. All human being make mistakes, all human beings are potential evil, you are potential evil, I am potential evil, all Muslims are potential evil, not just 20%.

Islamic view is the correct one and Islam's objective is to do jihad (struggle) against one's Self, to do good and forbid evil. You are beyond cure because you are not trying to understand the best way to fight evil in all evil prone people (including all Muslims).
You did not get the difference between "potential" and "evil prone".


DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to be evil.
"Potential" means 'possible,' as opposed to actual:
Potential | Define Potential at Dictionary.com


For 80% of all humans, they have certain inhibitors in their brain to control the potential from becoming real or actual.
For example all men has the potential to be rapists because they have the necessary sexual organs and sex drive but the majority of men do not rape because they have the inborn natural ability to ensure their sexual drive do not turn into extreme lust where they lost control over it.


I suggest you research on the topic of impulse control from the psychological perspective;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_control_disorder


Note the meaning of "prone" = having a natural inclination or tendency to something; disposed; liable:
Prone | Define Prone at Dictionary.com


'Evil prone' mean currently in the state of having the natural inclination or tendency to act out the potential.
This mean that the evil prone are very likely to commit evil given the slightest opportunity or trigger because they cannot control their evil impulses.
Note his again, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_control_disorder
This is why the large numbers of evil elements in the Quran influenced and inspire the 20% of evil prone Muslims [not the 80% good Muslims -with exceptions] to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.


I and all humans has the potential to be evil but I am confident I not evil prone, i.e. generally have the tendency to commit evil any time.
But I am not confident 100% that I will not commit evil if I am exposed to extreme circumstances [e.g brain damage] that weaken the inhibitors that control the evil potential in me.
In experiments Scientists can stimulate specific parts of the brain of person using EBS to trigger the impulse of rage and violence in even supposedly very good people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...in_stimulation


Hope you get the point of the difference between 'evil potential in all humans' and 'evil prone in 20% of humans'.
Btw, you will never catch me slipping [making errors of knowledge*] in the quality of my intellectual and objective discussions [except in very rare occasions].
I make it a very serious attempt to ensure I am objective, rational, logical and truthful.
* not language or grammar which I am prone to.

Quote:
Islamic view is the correct one and Islam's objective is to do jihad (struggle) against one's Self, to do good and forbid evil. You are beyond cure because you are not trying to understand the best way to fight evil in all evil prone people (including all Muslims).
I don't deny there are good elements in the Quran and Islam.


However Islam is dualistic, i.e. Islam contain both good and evil elements. The evidence of this are represented in the various verses in the Quran.


While the 80% [including you] of Muslims will likely focus on the good and ignore the evil elements, the 20% of evil prone Muslims will be influenced by the evil elements in the Quran.


Actually as a fallible human like every one else, you cannot be 100% confident you will not be influenced by the evil elements in the Quran. If the inhibitors in your brain that hold back the evil potential weaken, you can also turn evil spontaneously.


Note the London-Jihadist, Siddharta Dhar, an Indian who converted to Islam was originally a friendly and fun-loving guy but turned evil after being converted to be a Muslim. This is what his sister reported.


Quote:
"The memories I have of him is nothing I have seen today," she told the Home Affairs Select Committee on Tuesday (19 January). "He was fun-loving, laid-back and friendly to everyone. His personality doesn't correlate with what he is today. I believe my brother to be a good man. I don't want to give up on him – that's a mistake many families make."
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/siddhartha-...itated-1538865

Last edited by Continuum; 02-15-2016 at 01:58 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-15-2016, 02:10 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
If one is evil prone then he is likely to commit evil.

The purpose of Islam and the Qur'an is to stop people from doing evil act.

I have read the Qur'an, seen more evil in the world than in the Qur'an but have not been influenced to do evil either by the Qur'an or by the evil in the world because the Qur'an forbids me to do evil acts and do only good acts. As an adult, I know the dfference. I have potential to do both. It is in human nature to do both. The teaches me to do only good.

When one son of Adam killed his brother, he wasn't influenced by any text but by jealousy. There are many reasons that a human being does evil act. If you want to get rid of what you see as evil inluencing verses in the Qur'an to stop evil in this world then you will have to get a lot of things banned as evil influencing materials. Money would be at the top of your list. Land owning would be other. Bombs making is evil. Fighter jets are evil. Profit making is evil. The list can go on and on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-15-2016, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If one is evil prone then he is likely to commit evil.
The purpose of Islam and the Qur'an is to stop people from doing evil act.
The purpose of Islam is not to stop people from doing "evil". In addition "evil" in this case is very relative, i.e. one man's meat is another's poison.


The main purpose Allah created humans and jinns is so that they 'worship' [incl. believe, submit, obey] Allah.
The purpose of humans agreeing to enter into a covenant with Allah and 'worshipping' Allah is to ensure they will have eternal life in Paradise as promised by Allah when they believe/submit/worship his message via Muhammad.


Therefore some humans will do anything [killing non-Muslims, etc.] to obey Allah to ensure they have eternal life in Paradise as First Class Honors Muslims.


Quote:
I have read the Qur'an, seen more evil in the world than in the Qur'an but have not been influenced to do evil either by the Qur'an or by the evil in the world because the Qur'an forbids me to do evil acts and do only good acts. As an adult, I know the dfference. I have potential to do both. It is in human nature to do both. The teaches me to do only good.
From the perspective human biology, neuroscience and psychology no one can be 100% they can control the evil potential absolute and totally regardless of who or what forbids you.
The point is theory and knowing is one thing, but doing and acting is a different story.

Quote:
When one son of Adam killed his brother, he wasn't influenced by any text but by jealousy. There are many reasons that a human being does evil act. If you want to get rid of what you see as evil inluencing verses in the Qur'an to stop evil in this world then you will have to get a lot of things banned as evil influencing materials. Money would be at the top of your list. Land owning would be other. Bombs making is evil. Fighter jets are evil. Profit making is evil. The list can go on and on.
As I have mentioned my main project is the Study and Prevention of All Evil on Earth.
So I am aware what are the thing we need to avoid to reduce evils and what evil need to be tolerated at present because of various limitations.
As I had said, war itself is fundamentally evil but we no choice but to tolerate it while seeking solutions to it.


The basic point is material things are not evil.
What is evil is only when the evil potential in humans manifest as real acts of evil.
So you cannot say a knife, money and the likes are 'evil' and get rid of them.


What is needed to control and modulate the evil potential in the human brain, it is just like building a dam to control the terror forces of water up river.
The question is how to build effective inhibitors [dams, brakes] with control panels in the brain.


As a serious student of religions and spirituality, I am aware the Abrahamic religions [more so Islam] are not effective in building inhibitors in the human brain to modulate evil, in fact some even make it worse by stirring various negative emotions at the primal level.


On the other hand, I am aware most the mainstream Eastern religions make attempts to change the wirings in the brain to control the evil impulse within the brain of the believers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top