U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-15-2016, 09:32 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The purpose of Islam is not to stop people from doing "evil".
Then you know nothing about Islam. I suggest you read and "understand" the Qur'an 3:110, 3:114, 7:157, 9:67 and its implication, 9:71, 9:112, 22:41, and 31:17, 60:8-9 for their implication,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-15-2016, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then you know nothing about Islam. I suggest you read and "understand" the Qur'an 3:110, 3:114, 7:157, 9:67 and its implication, 9:71, 9:112, 22:41, and 31:17, 60:8-9 for their implication,
Note I wrote this earlier;

The purpose of Islam is not to stop people from doing "evil". In addition "evil" in this case is very relative, i.e. one man's meat is another's poison.
The main purpose Allah created humans and jinns is so that they 'worship' [incl. believe, submit, obey] Allah.

I am aware the concept of doing 'good and avoiding evil' is very prevalent all over the Quran but such a command is secondary to the main purpose of Islam.
Do you dispute the main purpose is Allah created humans to worship [submit, believe, obey] Allah?




If you read all the verses you quoted above, you will note the underlying purpose of the Muslims is to worship [including submitting, believing, obeying] Allah and therefrom his words in the Quran. Avoiding evil is important but secondary.


The main purpose of Islam is two fold, i.e.


1. Allah's purpose: created humans so that they will worship Allah.
2. Muslims' purpose: to seek salvation with eternal life in Paradise


To achieve the main purpose, a Muslim must obey the various commands of Allah which include
1. doing good and
2. avoiding evil.


Thus avoiding evil is sub-purpose and thus secondary.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2016, 01:10 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The purpose of Islam is not to stop people from doing "evil". In addition "evil" in this case is very relative, i.e. one man's meat is another's poison.


The main purpose Allah created humans and jinns is so that they 'worship' [incl. believe, submit, obey] Allah.
The purpose of humans agreeing to enter into a covenant with Allah and 'worshipping' Allah is to ensure they will have eternal life in Paradise as promised by Allah when they believe/submit/worship his message via Muhammad.


Therefore some humans will do anything [killing non-Muslims, etc.] to obey Allah to ensure they have eternal life in Paradise as First Class Honors Muslims.


From the perspective human biology, neuroscience and psychology no one can be 100% they can control the evil potential absolute and totally regardless of who or what forbids you.
The point is theory and knowing is one thing, but doing and acting is a different story.

As I have mentioned my main project is the Study and Prevention of All Evil on Earth.
So I am aware what are the thing we need to avoid to reduce evils and what evil need to be tolerated at present because of various limitations.
As I had said, war itself is fundamentally evil but we no choice but to tolerate it while seeking solutions to it.


The basic point is material things are not evil.
What is evil is only when the evil potential in humans manifest as real acts of evil.
So you cannot say a knife, money and the likes are 'evil' and get rid of them.


What is needed to control and modulate the evil potential in the human brain, it is just like building a dam to control the terror forces of water up river.
The question is how to build effective inhibitors [dams, brakes] with control panels in the brain.


As a serious student of religions and spirituality, I am aware the Abrahamic religions [more so Islam] are not effective in building inhibitors in the human brain to modulate evil, in fact some even make it worse by stirring various negative emotions at the primal level.


On the other hand, I am aware most the mainstream Eastern religions make attempts to change the wirings in the brain to control the evil impulse within the brain of the believers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I wrote this earlier;

The purpose of Islam is not to stop people from doing "evil". In addition "evil" in this case is very relative, i.e. one man's meat is another's poison.
The main purpose Allah created humans and jinns is so that they 'worship' [incl. believe, submit, obey] Allah.

I am aware the concept of doing 'good and avoiding evil' is very prevalent all over the Quran but such a command is secondary to the main purpose of Islam.
Do you dispute the main purpose is Allah created humans to worship [submit, believe, obey] Allah?




If you read all the verses you quoted above, you will note the underlying purpose of the Muslims is to worship [including submitting, believing, obeying] Allah and therefrom his words in the Quran. Avoiding evil is important but secondary.


The main purpose of Islam is two fold, i.e.


1. Allah's purpose: created humans so that they will worship Allah.
2. Muslims' purpose: to seek salvation with eternal life in Paradise


To achieve the main purpose, a Muslim must obey the various commands of Allah which include
1. doing good and
2. avoiding evil.


Thus avoiding evil is sub-purpose and thus secondary.
You miss the whole point of creation of man on earth as stated in the Qur'an even before Adam (man) was created. Read and understand 2:30. If man is to be khalif on earth then he must SERVE his Creator. Worshipping as in a mosque (formal 5 prayers) is only a PART of serving God. Giving in charity is serving God. Helping poor is serving God. Doing good to others is serving God. Doing anything that is going to help humanity is serving God. Even keeping yourself clean is serving God because such instructions/commands are from God for the benefit of human beings. So the purpose of man's creation is not to keep praying 24 hours but to serve God. Earning halal living is also serving God.

Last edited by Khalif; 02-16-2016 at 01:20 AM.. Reason: Submitted incomplete by mistake
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2016, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You miss the whole point of creation of man on earth as stated in the Qur'an even before Adam (man) was created. Read and understand 2:30. If man is to be khalif on earth then he must SERVE his Creator. Worshipping as in a mosque (formal 5 prayers) is only a PART of serving God. Giving in charity is serving God. Helping poor is serving God. Doing good to others is serving God. Doing anything that is going to help humanity is serving God. Even keeping yourself clean is serving God because such instructions/commands are from God for the benefit of human beings. So the purpose of man's creation is not to keep praying 24 hours but to serve God. Earning halal living is also serving God.
2:30 And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth,
they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee?
He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
2:30 refer to the first human and not All humans [humankind] that were created subsequently.
(btw note the issue of incest in order to create humankind).


51:56 is the most relevant to explain why Allah created humankind [All humans] and not the first human as viceroy.
51:56. I [Allah] created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.


Note the 'worship' in 51:56 would cover all the imperative actions and thoughts a Muslims must direct toward Allah, which include, submit, believe, obey, serve, rituals, etc.


'Worship' in 51:56 is not merely 'praying' to Allah 3-5 times a day.
It has more to do with reverence and respect than plain acts of worshipping.


Fundamentally to be a Muslim a person must first enter into a covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah.
All the relevant terms and conditions of the covenant are stipulated in the Quran and no where else.
"Worship" in 51:56 imply entering into a covenant with Allah which would cover whatever necessary that must be done by a Muslim to be the best [of conduct] Muslim.
In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah?
Suggest you refer to the above thread and give your views.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-17-2016, 03:42 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Worship is not just praying as in a mosque, church and synagogue. The worship in Islam can be described better as "serve" as vicegerent/deputy of Allah on earth. This is why mn is sometimes expressed as "slave/servant" of Allah. Such serving is not like wageless serving as a slave but serving headteacher bby his deputy headteacher. The covenant is to "serve" Allah. This does not apply to just the first man but to every man on earth. Man was created to serve Allah to become a godly person on earth. This serving is not for the benefit of Allah but for man himself. It is the man who is in need of becoming a godly person than Allah in need of man's worshipping or charity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-17-2016, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Worship is not just praying as in a mosque, church and synagogue. The worship in Islam can be described better as "serve" as vicegerent/deputy of Allah on earth. This is why mn is sometimes expressed as "slave/servant" of Allah. Such serving is not like wageless serving as a slave but serving headteacher bby his deputy headteacher. The covenant is to "serve" Allah. This does not apply to just the first man but to every man on earth. Man was created to serve Allah to become a godly person on earth. This serving is not for the benefit of Allah but for man himself. It is the man who is in need of becoming a godly person than Allah in need of man's worshipping or charity.
The above definition of 'worship' was what I wrote in my earlier post;


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Note the 'worship' in 51:56 would cover all the imperative actions and thoughts a Muslims must direct toward Allah, which include, submit, believe, obey, serve, rituals, etc.

I believe the covenant [agreement, contract, explicit or implicit] with Allah is most critical.
In this spiritual agreement/contract, the Muslim is obligated to comply with all the terms and conditions where necessary and Allah is obligated to commit to what Allah has promised in accordance with the covenant.


Here is another point to ponder;


Descriptively a Muslim is a person who is an adherent of Islam.
Prescriptively and effectively a Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah to 'worship' Allah and Allah will deliver his promises as in the Quran.


I wonder if you understand the above differences and if so, do you agree?




Psychologically, the majority of humans are inherently desperate for salvation. But not all humans are desperate for salvation via God. So not all humans in general are in a desperate need to worship a God.

But, when one read the Quran objectively, one will note Allah has a greater need/drive for all humans to worship Allah. This need of Allah is demonstrated by his threats to kill disbelievers to eternal death and torture them in Hell if humans do not believe in Allah and his messenger.
Of course from another perspective this greater need was not actually Allah's but rather it was the human[s] who wrote the Quran.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2016, 04:01 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Descriptively a Muslim is a person who is an adherent of Islam.
Prescriptively and effectively a Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant [agreement/contract] with Allah to 'worship' Allah and Allah will deliver his promises as in the Quran.


I wonder if you understand the above differences and if so, do
I do understand what you are trying to express.

Descriptively, a Muslim is someone who is "in Islam". "In Islam" here does not mean he calls himself "Muslim" or believes in Muhammad only or even follows Muhammad every step of the way. It means, he is obeying the commands from God/Allah.

Prescriptively, a Muslim is Momin (Believer) who had decided to believe God, obey Him, be guided by Him to do good and stay away from evil, and live life accordingly.

There is no real difference in both. You may understand it one way or the other. In reality, there is no difference.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2016, 12:17 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But, when one read the Quran objectively, one will note Allah has a greater need/drive for all humans to worship Allah. This need of Allah is demonstrated by his threats to kill disbelievers to eternal death and torture them in Hell if humans do not believe in Allah and his messenger.
Of course from another perspective this greater need of Allah was not actually Allah's but rather it was the human[s] who wrote the Quran.
You are doing too much mental gymnastic about the Qur'an whether it came from Muhammad or other Muslims.

Allah is certainly not in need of man's help or charity.

35:15 O mankind! You are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is Self-sufficient, the Praised One.

The threats and bounties are designed to find a way to help disbelieving man help himself. The believers need neither threat nor bounty to believe. The believers' reward is ongoing through contentment and peace in their heart and mind. Spiritually they are in peace. Ultimate reality is spiritual. True happines is spiritual. Material happiness Is false happiness. Material wealth, money, even children are ño guarantee that the possessor is going to be happy.

Th Qur'an was of course written by humans. It wasn't written by Muhammad but the scribes with him; he only dictated it word by word as he received it in sound form. Originally, it wasn't the scribes who began preacing the Message of the Qur'an but Muhammad, and he wasn't in need of any wealth, reward, or the bounty from the Meccans or their caravans. His wife was a rich woman and all that wealth was used for his mission. He passed away soon after he received the message (5:3) from Allah that said, "... This day have I perfected your deen (religion) and completed my favour on you and chosen for you Islam as your deen..."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2016, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are doing too much mental gymnastic about the Qur'an whether it came from Muhammad or other Muslims.

Allah is certainly not in need of man's help or charity.

35:15 O mankind! You are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is Self-sufficient, the Praised One.
I have to be analytical and objective as I don't have any emotional interests in the Quran and Islam to be subjective and bias as expected from all [if not most] Muslims.


I noted from the survey of 40++ English translations, about 10+ use the term 'self-sufficient' while the others do not use that term.
I think these translators are the ones who use too much mental gymnastics and twistings to use the term 'self-sufficient'.

When one read the Quran as a whole, it is obvious Allah has a certain "psychological" need for humans to worship, bow and be a slave to Allah.


In reality [since there is no God] what is in the Quran was Muhammad's personal need to feed his ego and control the followers.

Quote:
The threats and bounties are designed to find a way to help disbelieving man help himself. The believers need neither threat nor bounty to believe. The believers' reward is ongoing through contentment and peace in their heart and mind. Spiritually they are in peace. Ultimate reality is spiritual. True happines is spiritual. Material happiness Is false happiness. Material wealth, money, even children are ño guarantee that the possessor is going to be happy.
I have done a lot of research on the Principles of Motivation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation


Using threats is the worse kind of motivation strategies.
Bounties as in the Carrot and Stick approach to motivation is also kindergarten stuff.
There are more advanced and effective motivation methods that are used by progressive humans.


Perhaps threats and bounties methods were effective for the Arabs during the 7th century.
But the fact that such crude motivations approaches are included in the Quran meant they are meant to be eternal.
Because the crude methods were made eternal, it meant there is no room for more effective motivational method in the future as circumstances change in time.
If the Quran was from an all powerful God, such a God should have provided motivational methods that are suitable for eternity which can cope with changes.
This rigidity of motivation methods [threats and bounties] prove the Quran was authored by a person or group of people.


In contrast the more advanced and wiser Eastern religions do not use threats and bounties as eternal methods but provide a generic solution that is applicable eternally that will adapt with changes.





Quote:
The Qur'an was of course written by humans. It wasn't written by Muhammad but the scribes with him; he only dictated it word by word as he received it in sound form. Originally, it wasn't the scribes who began preacing the Message of the Qur'an but Muhammad, and he wasn't in need of any wealth, reward, or the bounty from the Meccans or their caravans. His wife was a rich woman and all that wealth was used for his mission. He passed away soon after he received the message (5:3) from Allah that said, "... This day have I perfected your deen (religion) and completed my favour on you and chosen for you Islam as your deen..."
The fact that there is a mode of mental and oral transmission of the holy texts via humans over many years and thousand of years to the present, there is a great possibility for errors and corruption.
Corruptions in such cases are inevitable no matter how much check and control is established.


I can expect you will give all sort of justifications and defenses, .e.g. memory, rhyming, etc. because of an emotional interest to maintain the fidelity of the Quran from its original source. No matter what, the Quran had definitely been exposed to errors and corruption.


It is difficult to establish the real historical truth of Muhammad then in the 7th century.
Some stories stated after the wife of Muhammad died, he subsequently spent all her money in supporting his followers. When the money ran dry and they have no other source of income, they have to do some thing to survive financially, food, pay salaries, etc. This is when Muhammad resorted to robbing caravans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 04:08 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have to be analytical and objective as I don't have any emotional interests in the Quran and Islam to be subjective and bias as expected from all [if not most] Muslims.[/QUuOTE] Good for you! You are so analytical and objective about the Qur'an that you can't make any mistake in understanding it. The fact that you do not believe it being from God, you are not subjective.


[QUoTE ]I noted from the survey of 40++ English translations, about 10+ use the term 'self-sufficient' while the others do not use that term.
I think these translators are the ones who use too much mental gymnastics and twistings to use the term 'self-sufficient'.

When one read the Quran as a whole, it is obvious Allah has a certain "psychological" need for humans to worship, bow and be a slave to Allah.
You are so stuborn in ignoring my explanation about this topic that you keep parroting the same thing. I will let Allah prove it to you whether He has any need of you or you are in need of Him.

Quote:
In reality [since there is no God] what is in the Quran was Muhammad's personal need to feed his ego and control the followers.
Very silly! Which of his personal need is being met by my being in his control?


Quote:
I have done a lot of research on the Principles of Motivation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation


Using threats is the worse kind of motivation strategies.
Bounties as in the Carrot and Stick approach to motivation is also kindergarten stuff.
There are more advanced and effective motivation methods that are used by progressive humans.


Perhaps threats and bounties methods were effective for the Arabs during the 7th century.
But the fact that such crude motivations approaches are included in the Quran meant they are meant to be eternal.
Because the crude methods were made eternal, it meant there is no room for more effective motivational method in the future as circumstances change in time.
If the Quran was from an all powerful God, such a God should have provided motivational methods that are suitable for eternity which can cope with changes.
This rigidity of motivation methods [threats and bounties] prove the Quran was authored by a person or group of people.
Just because you say so?
All it proves to me is that God understands how stubborn human's brain works. Threat is a deterrent, just as atom bomb is a deterrent. Just as people won't surrender unless threatened with another atom bomb.even nearly thirteen centuries after the Qur'an, some people won't take the guidance unless they are made to realize the consequence before it happens.

If there is no God, you don't need to worry or complain about these threats. Nothing is going to happen to you.

On the other hand, as you have no proof to prove that there is no God, and you find later on that you were wrong in saying that there is no God, won't it be too late for you? Is it better for you to be ssfe or be sorry?


Quote:
The fact that there is a mode of mental and oral transmission of the holy texts via humans over many years and thousand of years to the present, there is a great possibility for errors and corruption. N
Corruptions in such cases are inevitable no matter how much check and control is established.;
Yes if only mental and oral. In the case of the Qur'an, it has always been mental (memorizing) and written from the outset. Not even an iota has been added or taken away.


Quote:
I can expect you will give all sort of justifications and defenses, .e.g. memory, rhyming, etc. because of an emotional interest to maintain the fidelity of the Quran from its original source. No matter what, the Quran had definitely been exposed to errors and corruption.
Is it only your imagination or you have a definite proof?


Quote:
It is difficult to establish the real historical truth of Muhammad then in the 7th century.
Some stories stated after the wife of Muhammad died, he subsequently spent all her money in supporting his followers. When the money ran dry and they have no other source of income, they have to do some thing to survive financially, food, pay salaries, etc. This is when Muhammad resorted to robbing caravans.
No doubt you have been reading ant-Islam and anti-Muhammd stories! You effectively admit here not to know much about Muhammad.

Do you know when his wife died and when the money ran out?

How long did it take him to run out of money from the year he began to preach the Qur'an?

In which year after his mission began that there was the first raid on Meccan caravan?

Where in Arabia did this first raid take place?

Had the Meccans looted all the Muslim belongings from their homes in Mecca before the very first raid on a caravan or not?

How much wealth, in terms of properties, palaces and money did Muhammad leave in his will when he passed away?

Not only Muhammad but his close friend Abu bakr, the first male to accept Islam outside Muhammad's household, was also a rich man at the beginning of Muhammad's mission. What was his personal interest/need to accept Islam?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top