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Old 02-19-2016, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are so stuborn in ignoring my explanation about this topic that you keep parroting the same thing. I will let Allah prove it to you whether He has any need of you or you are in need of Him.
How can I place any trust in ALL your explanations when I know you rely on faith [belief without proofs nor reason] to believe in a God that do not exists as real.


I will agree with you as long as your views are objective, e.g. the Quran is the only sole authority for Islam [not the Ahadiths or any thing else].
Therefore present something objective where any rational person can accept.



Quote:
Very silly! Which of his personal need is being met by my being in his control?
It is a fact as a leader Muhammad need to control his followers.
This is a basic fact of the Principle of Leadership [I have done extensive research on this]


Quote:
Just because you say so?
All it proves to me is that God understands how stubborn human's brain works. Threat is a deterrent, just as atom bomb is a deterrent. Just as people won't surrender unless threatened with another atom bomb.even nearly thirteen centuries after the Qur'an, some people won't take the guidance unless they are made to realize the consequence before it happens.
Not because I said so, it can be proven by empirical evidence.
Threats by humans and by any means whether it is atom bomb or a fist is basically evil.

Quote:
If there is no God, you don't need to worry or complain about these threats. Nothing is going to happen to you.
The big problem for humanity which is very real is SOME evil prone Muslim are trigger by these threats to cast terror that has effected me and all humanity on Earth. Now if I go to a beach, a cinema, a supermarket. on a flight, on a train, bus and many places I have to be very wary of the potential of being killed by Islamic jihadists.

Quote:
On the other hand, as you have no proof to prove that there is no God, and you find later on that you were wrong in saying that there is no God, won't it be too late for you? Is it better for you to be ssfe or be sorry?
Note I started a thread to show it is 100% certain it is impossible for God to exists as real. Note my strength is on Philosophy and its arguments.
For a trade off for the terrible evils and violence committed in the name and inspired by a God it is more optimal for humanity to do away with a belief in God.
I understand it is impossible for the majority at present to give up God due to some serious psychological impulse, but we have to do something about in the future.


Yes if only mental and oral. In the case of the Qur'an, it has always been mental (memorizing) and written from the outset. Not even an iota has been added or taken away.



Quote:
No doubt you have been reading ant-Islam and anti-Muhammd stories! You effectively admit here not to know much about Muhammad.

Do you know when his wife died and when the money ran out?

How long did it take him to run out of money from the year he began to preach the Qur'an?

In which year after his mission began that there was the first raid on Meccan caravan?

Where in Arabia did this first raid take place?

Had the Meccans looted all the Muslim belongings from their homes in Mecca before the very first raid on a caravan or not?

How much wealth, in terms of properties, palaces and money did Muhammad leave in his will when he passed away?

Not only Muhammad but his close friend Abu bakr, the first male to accept Islam outside Muhammad's household, was also a rich man at the beginning of Muhammad's mission. What was his personal interest/need to accept Islam?
I don't have to rely on others but any one with a rational mind can make inferences based on understanding of human nature and what has happened in history with various people in the same situation.


It is obvious from the verses Quran itself [chronologically], Muhammad progress from a mild/patient preacher from the beginning in Mecca to a very violent aggressive warlord and general in Medina.
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Old 02-20-2016, 03:11 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How can I place any trust in ALL your explanations when I know you rely on faith [belief without proofs nor reason] to believe in a God that do not exists as real.
You claim here that God does not exist as real. It is only on faith but not because of any proof. It is reasonable to believe that without an uncreated real God nothing would have been created, existed or evolved. That is my "reason" for believing that an uncreated real God exists.


Quote:
I will agree with you as long as your views are objective, e.g. the Quran is the only sole authority for Islam [not the Ahadiths or any thing else].
Therefore present something objective where any rational person can accept.
My job here is not to make anyone/you "accept" what I present here but my job/aim here is simply to explain something about Islam. There is no compulsion in religon one way or the other (2:256). I also know that nothing will make you "believe" if you do not want to believe. I also understand from the Qur'an that most men will not believe (12:103). This is a good news for you; you are in majority.



Quote:
It is a fact as a leader Muhammad need to control his followers.
This is a basic fact of the Principle of Leadership [I have done extensive research on this]
Muhammad was not a "leader" but a "messenger". His job/duty was to deliver the message (5:92, 5:99, 29 :18). His job was neither to control anyone nor to make anyone walk Islamic way (2:272, 13:40, 29:18). His duty was only to deliver the message.


Quote:
Not because I said so, it can be proven by empirical evidence.
Threats by humans and by any means whether it is atom bomb or a fist is basically evil.
If it stops you from doing an evil act then such threat on its own is not evil. It is used to discipline certain people. There is posiive disciplining technique and there is negative disciplining technique. Both are used against different individuals and both work in different ways. To point out only about Islam that such threats are evil is nothing but ant-Islam rhetoric. In reality, it happens in every country. Are there no threats of being locked up vfor the rest of their life in most countries ? Are there no threats of lethal injection even in non-Muslim country like USA?

Quote:
The big problem for humanity which is very real is SOME evil prone Muslim are trigger by these threats to cast terror that has effected me and all humanity on Earth. Now if I go to a beach, a cinema, a supermarket. on a flight, on a train, bus and many places I have to be very wary of the potential of being killed by Islamic jihadists.
Now you are not talking about threat from God but threat from "Islamic jihadists". This is another subject. No Muslim is required or commanded to "cast terror upon non-Muslims". This kind of terror has nothing to do with Islamic requirements from Muslims. Such terrror is in response to unislamic crusade. It is political in response to politics such as attack on Iraq to get rid of WMDs that never existed in Iraq. People in Iraq were subjected to Crusade and terror after bomber Bush and bomber Blair had lied about WMDs. Now you are terrified because of the real WMDs. I am not guilty for your problem nor is my religion terrifying you.


Quote:
Note I started a thread to show it is 100% certain it is impossible for God to exists as real. Note my strength is on Philosophy and its arguments.
For a trade off for the terrible evils and violence committed in the name and inspired by a God it is more optimal for humanity to do away with a belief in God.
I understand it is impossible for the majority at present to give up God due to some serious psychological impulse, but we have to do something about in the future.
Aren't you doing something right now? What else would you suggest is the solution to stop people believing in God that is not real in your view?


Yes if only mental and oral. In the case of the Qur'an, it has always been mental (memorizing) and written from the outset. Not even an iota has been added or taken away.



Quote:
I don't have to rely on others but any one with a rational mind can make inferences based on understanding of human nature and what has happened in history with various people in the same situation.


It is obvious from the verses Quran itself [chronologically], Muhammad progress from a mild/patient preacher from the beginning in Mecca to a very violent aggressive warlord and general in Medina.
I asked you some relevant questions and, instead of answering them, you have run back into your perceived comfort zone with the same old robotic rhetoric against Muhammad. All this despite accepting that you do not know much about Muhammad. You are not even trying to understand that he was rich man in Mecca and mild/patient preacher for 13 years (in Mecca), never became aggressive/violent in Mecca or raided any Meccan caravan but only when in Madina. If you had answered my questions, I would have pointed out your error about Muhammad.
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You claim here that God does not exist as real. It is only on faith but not because of any proof. It is reasonable to believe that without an uncreated real God nothing would have been created, existed or evolved. That is my "reason" for believing that an uncreated real God exists.
Unfortunately your "reason" is not good enough.


It is very natural common sense [a small kid can infer that] that for every effect there must be a cause. This is very crude reason and one will face infinite regression and the problem of the first cause.
I also understand this is very necessary to facilitate survival but if you go deeper into philosophical and refined reason, there is no primal or first cause, i.e. God.
Hume has famously rejected there is no solid principle to connect any effect with a cause in the ultimate philosophical reflection.


I understand your "reason" in believing a God is necessary good for your psychology and those of the majority. But the consequences of theism is the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone believers in the name of God and religion.


In reality if humanity got rid of God there will be no God-inspired evils and violence but the majority will suffer psychologically and terribly with subliminal horrors and angst. This is why humanity have to bear with God at present and the related evils and violence that come with it. However in the longer run and the future, the majority of humans must progress to the truth there is no God and deal with their psychological pains with alternative foolproof non-theistic methods.


Quote:
My job here is not to make anyone/you "accept" what I present here but my job/aim here is simply to explain something about Islam. There is no compulsion in religon one way or the other (2:256). I also know that nothing will make you "believe" if you do not want to believe. I also understand from the Qur'an that most men will not believe (12:103). This is a good news for you; you are in majority.
I agree your intention.
But that is not the intention of Allah in the Quran. According to Allah, Islam will prevail over all other religions (48:28) and the kuffar are the worst creatures.


'Most men will not believe" (12:103) that is why Muhammad began to be aggressive in Medina and compel and leave non-Muslim no choice but to convert to Islam.

Quote:
Muhammad was not a "leader" but a "messenger". His job/duty was to deliver the message (5:92, 5:99, 29 :18). His job was neither to control anyone nor to make anyone walk Islamic way (2:272, 13:40, 29:18). His duty was only to deliver the message.
Note a person often wears many hat in his life, as a husband, father, a CEO, sport coach, etc.
One of Muhammad give responsibility was that of a 'warner' or messenger.
Muhammad has other duties as a husband to many wives, father, a merchant and leader of a gang of followers and subsequent many thousands of followers.
As a warner, Muhammad has no authority, but as a leader of his follower he need power to control them. The most effective is to use the power of Allah. This is a very common strategy of my religious and cult leaders.


Quote:
If it stops you from doing an evil act then such threat on its own is not evil. It is used to discipline certain people. There is posiive disciplining technique and there is negative disciplining technique. Both are used against different individuals and both work in different ways. To point out only about Islam that such threats are evil is nothing but anti-Islam rhetoric. In reality, it happens in every country. Are there no threats of being locked up vfor the rest of their life in most countries ? Are there no threats of lethal injection even in non-Muslim country like USA?
Your moral standard is very low.
Any threat is fundamentally a potential 'evil' of some degrees regardless of how it is used.
I don't deny such an element with inherent evil potential can be used positively if there is no better choice and it is effective for the time being.
But because threats [invoking fears or terror] by humans are potential evil, humanity must avoid them at all cost wherever possible and eliminate such an evil potential in the future.


It is because you moral standards are so low that when I criticize any thing that is potentially evil you, you condemned me as using anti-Islam rhetoric.
Note in contrast, Buddhism for example which do not rely on any form of element with potential evil in the religion. This is why there is no issue of anti-Buddhism rhetoric.
Therefore it is because Islam has both good and evil elements that any person who is objective and has average moral standard will criticize the 'evil' elements in Islam which has manifested terrible evils and violence in reality.


Quote:
Now you are not talking about threat from God but threat from "Islamic jihadists". This is another subject. No Muslim is required or commanded to "cast terror upon non-Muslims". This kind of terror has nothing to do with Islamic requirements from Muslims. Such terrror is in response to unislamic crusade. It is political in response to politics such as attack on Iraq to get rid of WMDs that never existed in Iraq. People in Iraq were subjected to Crusade and terror after bomber Bush and bomber Blair had lied about WMDs. Now you are terrified because of the real WMDs. I am not guilty for your problem nor is my religion terrifying you.
The threat is from Islamic jihadists who rely on the evil laden verses in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence, and casting terror onto non-Muslims and even other Muslims.


Your use of "crusade" is irrelevant here.
You forgot Bush and Blair invaded Iraq in response to the Islamic threat after 911.
Bush and Blair did invade Iraq and Saddam Hussein lost politically. But the additional problem was the Islamist jihadists [not legally recognized by UN] were inspired by the verses of the Quran to attack non-Muslim wherever they find them because Islam in this case was under threat and as such it is sanctioned by Allah for the muhajideens to counter attack and cast terrors upon non-Muslims wherever they are.


In other cases, Islamist jihadists attack because Western education is a threat to Islam. This has nothing to do with the politics of USA or the Europeans.


The Islamist jihadists also attack non-Muslims because of the drawing of cartoons, they destroyed all cultural artifacts, etc.


There are many other incidents where Islamist jihadists attack non-Muslims for all sort of reasons that they interpret as a threat to Islam.


Therefore I am terrified of Islam and SOME [not all] Muslims because evil prone Muslims simply deemed whatever that is non-Islamic as a threat to Islam and they will attack non-Muslims wherever they find them, in the beaches, hotels, in flight, in supermarket, concert halls, stadiums, etc. This is in accordance to the evil laden verses in the Quran.


Quote:
Aren't you doing something right now? What else would you suggest is the solution to stop people believing in God that is not real in your view?

Yes if only mental and oral. In the case of the Qur'an, it has always been mental (memorizing) and written from the outset. Not even an iota has been added or taken away.
Yes, I am researching and analyzing the problem of God-inspired evil and violence. This is why I force myself to study [full time] the Quran and Islam in depth over the last 12++ months.
One of my strength is Problem-Solving Techniques.
I believe we can put the problem of God-inspired evil and violence through the proper process of the various Problem Solving Techniques and we will be able to resolve the problem effective. It will not be now, but if we start now it will be possible to resolve the problem within the next 50-100 years.
Effectively the solution must involve the voluntarily foolproof rewiring of the neurons in the brains of believers.


Quote:
I asked you some relevant questions and, instead of answering them, you have run back into your perceived comfort zone with the same old robotic rhetoric against Muhammad.
I suggest you stop such unsubstantiated and childish personal attacks. It is not healthy as it will goad and stir me to do the same and it will get worst and worst which eventually such tit-for-tat is useless. Let's discuss the issue maturedly.


Quote:
All this despite accepting that you do not know much about Muhammad. You are not even trying to understand that he was rich man in Mecca and mild/patient preacher for 13 years (in Mecca), never became aggressive/violent in Mecca or raided any Meccan caravan but only when in Madina. If you had answered my questions, I would have pointed out your error about Muhammad.
My counter point is no one can be accurate about the historical facts that happened in the 7th century where we don't have camera, video and internet to capture accurate records of the person.
So how can you be so sure you are 100% or 90% accurate. So who are you to point any error to me?


What I have countered your point is based on the principles of human nature which is still applicable at present. I don't claim my point is 100% accurate but is it rational and reasonable based on the Quran and its circumstances.
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Old 02-21-2016, 03:01 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
In that case, your reason is also not good enough. You have no proof that God does ot exist.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In that case, your reason is also not good enough. You have no proof that God does ot exist.
I have proofs and justifications why it is a 100% certainty it is impossible for God to exists. I suggest you read Kant's Critique of Reason to get some background of my proofs. Then we can proceed further to discuss the final points.


To give you an idea, the concept of God is like claiming a squared-circle exists. This is impossible because it is a contradictions and a non-starter.


Despite God being illusory and cannot be real, there is still a critical need for the majority at the present [not necessary the future] to believe in a God for psychological reasons.


DNA wise humans are embedded with very terrible subliminal psychological angst [great mental pains].
The most effective way to relieve this subliminal pain that general angst, despairs, hopelessness and anxieties is to surrender to a higher up [even it is illusory, not real, supernatural, irrational, etc.], i.e. the highest all powerful being is God for theists.


I suggest you research and understand [not necessary agree yet] this psychological reality, then prove me wrong!
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:12 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have proofs and justifications why it is a 100% certainty it is impossible for God to exists. I suggest you read Kant's Critique of Reason to get some background of my proofs. Then we can proceed further to discuss the final points.


To give you an idea, the concept of God is like claiming a squared-circle exists. This is impossible because it is a contradictions and a non-starter.


Despite God being illusory and cannot be real, there is still a critical need for the majority at the present [not necessary the future] to believe in a God for psychological reasons.


DNA wise humans are embedded with very terrible subliminal psychological angst [great mental pains].
The most effective way to relieve this subliminal pain that general angst, despairs, hopelessness and anxieties is to surrender to a higher up [even it is illusory, not real, supernatural, irrational, etc.], i.e. the highest all powerful being is God for theists.


I suggest you research and understand [not necessary agree yet] this psychological reality, then prove me wrong!
You have no proof, only reason; your reason. I too have reason. I don't claim to have proof but you do claim to have proof. Let's have that proof here then!
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have no proof, only reason; your reason. I too have reason. I don't claim to have proof but you do claim to have proof. Let's have that proof here then!
As I mentioned above I suggested you read Kant's Critique of Pure Reason to get the fundamental first [that will save me a lot of hassles before I get on to the final points.


I wrote this earlier;

I have proofs and justifications why it is a 100% certainty it is impossible for God to exists. I suggest you read Kant's Critique of Reason to get some background of my proofs. Then we can proceed further to discuss the final points.
To give you an idea, the concept of God is like claiming a squared-circle exists. This is impossible because it is a contradictions and a non-starter.

Not only I have proofs and philosophical justifications why God does not exist, I also have the capability to provide you knowledge why you and other theists believe in a non-existent and illusory God due to a psychological basis from the various perspectives of human nature, philosophy, neuro-psychology, neuroscience, anthropology, evolutionary psychology and many other fields of advance knowledge.


I suggest you research the various arguments from these sources of knowledge and find counter arguments against them.
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Old 05-03-2016, 01:57 AM
 
23 posts, read 8,693 times
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O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is best and more suitable to (achieve) the end."
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