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Old 12-26-2015, 09:11 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you understand your own nature as a human being and psychology, you will understand the concept of God [an illusion] is invented to deal with a psychological weakness that manifest existential anxieties and existential dilemma.


This psychological effect of existential desperation is natural in all human beings due to human nature and as embedded in the DNA. This is why the concept of God is a critical for the majority of humans for the soteriological purpose as there are no other effective alternatives for them.


If you understand your own basic nature and has the psychological maturity and confidence to deal with the existential desperation, you will not have to rely on the illusory idea of God. In such a situation, you can forget about a creator, the threat of shirk, day of judgment, justice of Allah and whatever negatives arising from the idea of God. You will leave a life of real peace without any existential fears and threats [other than real physical ones] of an illusory God.


That is what Buddhism [and other Eastern religion] does. Buddhism zoom directly into the real problem of humans and introduce a problem-solving technique to improve the spiritual competency of the person via self-development to deal with that desperate existential problem.




The above verses do not stand on their own.


Here is an article the counter the claim of 2:190.
Was Muhammad A Terrorist?


Here is an article that counter 8:61
Misinterpreted Qur'anic Verses - WikiIslam


There are verses that apparently indicate Islam is peaceful on the surface, but the overall context of the Quran is not peaceful. The evil and violent laden verses and ethos is too heavy that it outweigh all the apparent "peaceful" verses in the Quran.


For example, surely there are witnesses [Germans and Nazi apologists] who can testify Hitler was the best humans in the world based on what they saw of the good deeds that Hitler did to his relatives, girlfriends, friends, soldiers, etc. and believed [blinded] Hitler was a good person.
However when we assess the critical evil deeds that Hitler inspired his overall net result is that of an evil person, i.e. one the most evil ever.


For example, Muslims often quote 5:32 -kill one as if kill mankind - without taking into account this is applicable to the Jews and 5:33 give the exception of 'corruption' that permit Muslims to kill the kuffar [not innocent]. There may be other good deeds that Muhammad mentioned in the Quran but what is critical is the net-overall effect his deeds has on humanity then, now and the future.


On an overall basis, besides whatever is good, Islam-in-part has an inherent malignant evil potential that has expressed itself by SOME evil prone Muslims since Islam emerged, throughout history, at present and will be in the future.
You always change the subject which is understandable in your position, you argued that the punishment in hell fire is not just by the Allah(swt) and I gave you the logic why it is just but you started to lecture on psychology. You are not discussing God existence here and its about Quran

Its funny that an Atheist Quoting and relaying on Christian websites and its more funny that All of them Quoting and totally depending on Islamic Hadiths and narrations, All the Hadiths and Quranic Verses have a context, they always misquote the Hadith and Verses and never gave the Context because they know if they provided the Context then they himself will be exposed for the lies and deception.

I read the both articles and every single Hadith and narration they Quoted, I know the context and can easily explain. If you want to discuss those AntiIslamic articles, you are most welcome but dont fool yourself. Btw the Quran 5:33 gives Muslim the solution where they get attacked and oppressed by anyone and 5:32 restrict them from killing a non-muslim if he is innocent and did not attacked Muslims. It is the same as any other liberal and secular Constitution of world where the country or his citizen have every right to defend themselves against attack But when Islam gives permission for self defense then it expose your double standards against Muslim. If a western or any other human being can defend himself then why not Muslim ? why you expect Muslims not to defend their lives.
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Old 12-26-2015, 03:48 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
You always change the subject which is understandable in your position, you argued that the punishment in hell fire is not just by the Allah(swt) and I gave you the logic why it is just but you started to lecture on psychology. You are not discussing God existence here and its about Quran

Its funny that an Atheist Quoting and relaying on Christian websites and its more funny that All of them Quoting and totally depending on Islamic Hadiths and narrations, All the Hadiths and Quranic Verses have a context, they always misquote the Hadith and Verses and never gave the Context because they know if they provided the Context then they himself will be exposed for the lies and deception.

I read the both articles and every single Hadith and narration they Quoted, I know the context and can easily explain. If you want to discuss those AntiIslamic articles, you are most welcome but dont fool yourself. Btw the Quran 5:33 gives Muslim the solution where they get attacked and oppressed by anyone and 5:32 restrict them from killing a non-muslim if he is innocent and did not attacked Muslims. It is the same as any other liberal and secular Constitution of world where the country or his citizen have every right to defend themselves against attack But when Islam gives permission for self defense then it expose your double standards against Muslim. If a western or any other human being can defend himself then why not Muslim ? why you expect Muslims not to defend their lives.
Would rape be self defense?

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

Self defense??

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (9:5)

The words, “when the forbidden months are past,” precludes the possibility that this was a matter of self-defense.

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

The people of Khaybar were not attacking Muhammad.

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

The question Ali posed would have been unnecessary had the Muslims been under attack by the Khaybar or if the answer to the question were obvious.
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Old 12-26-2015, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
You always change the subject which is understandable in your position, you argued that the punishment in hell fire is not just by the Allah(swt) and I gave you the logic why it is just but you started to lecture on psychology. You are not discussing God existence here and its about Quran
The point is you started with Allah did this and blah.. blah.
God is an illusion and I don't want to discuss illusory things.
Instead I brought in a more realistic perspective of psychology to explain why theists are delusional in persisting and insisting an illusion is real when they cannot prove its existence at all.
My purpose is to redirect you to deal with reality rather than illusions.

Quote:
Its funny that an Atheist Quoting and relaying on Christian websites and its more funny that All of them Quoting and totally depending on Islamic Hadiths and narrations, All the Hadiths and Quranic Verses have a context, they always misquote the Hadith and Verses and never gave the Context because they know if they provided the Context then they himself will be exposed for the lies and deception.
Again you are insulting your own intelligence with this 'funny' counter.
I don't agree with theistic theories and doctrine, but it does not mean Christians cannot be objective on other matters.
I have read many of the articles by Christians in proving Allah is the fake God invented by Muhammad based on objective evidence and sound arguments.
I don't agree with the Hadiths in totality. I only agree with those Hadiths that are in agreement with the Quran in principle.
However if Muslims agree with the Hadiths in totality then they have to recognize the absurdities within the Hadiths as well. Therefore if the Christians charge Muhammad was a pedophile based on the Hadiths, by a technical definition, I have no problem agreeing with that.




Quote:
I read the both articles and every single Hadith and narration they Quoted, I know the context and can easily explain. If you want to discuss those AntiIslamic articles, you are most welcome but dont fool yourself.
Btw the Quran 5:33 gives Muslim the solution where they get attacked and oppressed by anyone and 5:32 restrict them from killing a non-muslim if he is innocent and did not attacked Muslims. It is the same as any other liberal and secular Constitution of world where the country or his citizen have every right to defend themselves against attack But when Islam gives permission for self defense then it expose your double standards against Muslim. If a western or any other human being can defend himself then why not Muslim ? why you expect Muslims not to defend their lives.
That you know the context is only from your point of view, it does not mean your view is sound and true. From your postings so far, I would not give much credibility to your claims.


Note I will repeat again,
my complain with 5:32 is its misuse by Muslims and world leaders who are led blindly by many so-called Muslim scholars to dupe the masses in proclaiming Islam is a religion of peace because of 5:32.
The point is 5:33 itself contradict 5:32 with an exception where Muslims can kill the kuffar on the basis of 'corruption' which is a very vague term.
SOME Muslims kill the kuffar while influenced by the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran and not based on 5:33 itself.
But because the killing of the kuffar are permitted from so many other reasons in the Quran is it absurd to claim Islam is a religion of Peace by merely mentioning 5:32.


Example [theoretical]:
Muslim: Islam is a religion of peace because 5.32 states '..to kill one is as if kill mankind..'
Kuffar: But so many millions of kuffar have been killed by Muslims;
Muslim: Oh, that is because 5:33 allow the killings due the kuffar's corruption as an exception. Therefore Islam is always a Religion of Peace even if Muslims has killed 5.5 billion of the kuffar because of 5:33 and the kuffar has commit corruptions [threat against Islam].


Can you see the ridiculousness of it. In principle even if 5.5 billion of kuffar are killed, Islam will always be a religion of Peace because of 5:33 the exception.
The point of dispute here is the term "corruption" is vague and sensitive thus very vulnerable to misinterpretations and thus wrong judgment by Muslims in killing the kuffar.
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Old 12-27-2015, 03:21 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Religion is for the undeveloped, for children.
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Old 12-28-2015, 01:21 AM
 
Location: 79th St, Southside Chicago
110 posts, read 193,936 times
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Subhanallah, reading this thread all I can say is that I am grateful that Allah (swt) brought me to ISLAM from atheism, reading the comments of atheist on this forum shows you that Allah (swt) has blocked people from the message due to arrogance.

The first step to coming into the realization of Allah's (swt) existence is by losing your arrogance and admitting that you only know a fraction of what is to know. It's ironic that the same people who did not even realize that they existed while they were in the wound, somehow can debate if Allah (swt) exist. No one can recall their own birth, but the same people will tell you about the universe and how it came to be. Pure arrogance, that mentality alone with block a person from the message. Allah (swt) will guide the one who accepts that he knows nothing, the one who knows it all will fall like Shaytan.

Spare me the talk of human psychology, the human being is mentally limited and trapped in a world where everything around him has to be suitable to survive. The human being controls little, can't recall his own birth, and can't even control the organs inside his own body (that magically exist on its own according to atheist) but will argue with Allah (swt). Allah (swt) said, "He has created man from a sperm, then behold, this same (man) becomes an open opponent." This verse is being enacted right now in front of our eyes. People are arguing on whether Allah (swt) exist, should question their own existence because according to you, you are a creation without a creator.

Also in terms of Islam being a religion of peace or being "evil", first of all, Islam is a pragmatic faith which is based on human nature or the "fitrah" that Allah (swt) created mankind with. Islam takes the action that people are already inclined to naturally do and reforms those actions to conform with the worship of Allah (swt). For example, people naturally have sex so Islam reforms sex to be an act for marital relations ONLY to make it halal. People fight each other, so Islam reforms fighting to be for jihad fi sabeel Allah (swt) ONLY to make it halal. People are nationalistic, so Islam reforms that by making brotherhood in Islam and loyalty to God the highest form of human bonding beyond tribalism and race etc we can go on and on. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) dealt with the human condition, Islam reformed the traits of people which were already inside of them but was misdirected or had false intentions. He said, the best of you in ignorance are the best of you in Islam. [And what the Christians say of him is irrelevant, because they are not monotheists to begin with. As someone who grew up in the church and turned to atheism after seeing people literally worship statues of Jesus (as) and other things in church, they're opinions do not matter since they do not even follow their own book and literally mock Allah's (swt) oneness.]

ISLAM is a religion of peace AND justice. Justice has to come before the peace can come, which is where jihad comes from. Allah (swt) said, And if it were not for Allah checking [some] people by means of others, the earth would have been corrupted, but Allah is full of bounty to the worlds. and And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" The person who claimed that the deen of Islam was "inherently evil" should define what is evil which he will not be able to because he has no religion, all he has is culture which is not enough since Allah (swt) said, "And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.”.

If a person wants to remain atheist let him, if he believes that the universe exists with the law of physic, law of gravity, law of nature etc but that Allah (swt) has no law for human beings then let him. And if he believes that religion is for children let him, even though everything in this world is based off of religion. Even the secularism which you atheist guys trump and are trying to spread worldwide is essentially based on religion. In secularism law is treated like sacred text, the founding fathers get treated like prophets, the flag is treated like a holy relic, and the state/government is treated like a diety who always knows best for you. So if you believe that you can run away from religion, continue believing that even though your atheist governance and culture that has been set up worldwide over Allah's (swt) law is actually embedded in pseudo religious symbolism. I know from personal experience that the same people who swear there is no God, are the same people you catch who believe in luck, zodiac signs, father time, mother nature etc). Some of them even worship their ownselves and their intelligence. They've simply replaced Allah (swt) with another deity without even realizing it. Whatever you base your reality on is your religion. But if you want to be smart, then come to the REAL religion Islam instead of the fake pseudo religion of atheism which simply replaces Allah (swt) with something else and convinces its followers that they know more than anybody else even though they are weak men like us who cannot even control their own heartbeat or lungs inside their bodies but feel that human beings are in control of everything around them without Allah (swt).
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Old 12-28-2015, 03:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthsideTillIDie View Post
Subhanallah, reading this thread all I can say is that I am grateful that Allah (swt) brought me to ISLAM from atheism, reading the comments of atheist on this forum shows you that Allah (swt) has blocked people from the message due to arrogance.
If you want to substantiate your views as from Allah, you have to prove Allah exists first. Since you have not done so, your views are unjustified and groundless.


You cannot generalize atheism [non-theist] as non-theists are comprised of a wide range of people with varied personalities, competences, psychology, etc.
If you have moved from atheism to theism, then I am very certain you had basically very low self-esteem, full of psychological insecurities & angsts, and there are changes in the neural circuits in the brain.
For example older people tend to believe in God as their neurons atrophized and weaken.
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God | Atheism & Most Religious Countries
So there must be some sort of negative changes to move you toward theism.
I am glad you have found theism to be comfortable [of ease and security] for yourself but it is not necessary for all to be Muslims at present or the future.



Quote:
The first step to coming into the realization of Allah's (swt) existence is by losing your arrogance and admitting that you only know a fraction of what is to know. It's ironic that the same people who did not even realize that they existed while they were in the wound, somehow can debate if Allah (swt) exist. No one can recall their own birth, but the same people will tell you about the universe and how it came to be. Pure arrogance, that mentality alone with block a person from the message. Allah (swt) will guide the one who accepts that he knows nothing, the one who knows it all will fall like Shaytan.
Whatever you assert above has no basis and is groundless because you are relying on a thing that is illusory and do not exists. Where is your proof Allah exists.


Btw, the default of the people of Science and Philosophy is always from the stance of humility, uncertainty and rationality.
The basic approach rule is one can know as far as the evidence lead plus support from various philosophical justifications.
Where did you get the idea that non-theists claim to know all? Evidence?


On the other hand, Muslims are brainwashed with the false arrogance that God exists absolutely despite not being able to provide any proofs God exists.

However it is the Muslims who are brainwashed with the false arrogance that their Allah [never proven to exists] know all and Islam is the most superior religion that prevails over all other religions.
In the Quran, the kuffar are condemned and humanized like a piece of sh:t and are compared and liken as pigs, swine, cattle, ass and are the worst of all creatures. What kind of a God is this? If you have read the Quran, you cannot dispute these points.


Quote:
Spare me the talk of human psychology, the human being is mentally limited and trapped in a world where everything around him has to be suitable to survive. The human being controls little, can't recall his own birth, and can't even control the organs inside his own body (that magically exist on its own according to atheist) but will argue with Allah (swt). Allah (swt) said, "He has created man from a sperm, then behold, this same (man) becomes an open opponent." This verse is being enacted right now in front of our eyes. People are arguing on whether Allah (swt) exist, should question their own existence because according to you, you are a creation without a creator.
Psychology is basically knowledge of one's self and why you behave the way you do.
Of course humans know very little relative to what is in the universe, but the point is humans must know at least what is possible to be known.
What is possible to be known is God do not exists and there is a lot that humans can know about themselves. This knowledge is available in the current database of humanity.
Humans at present the full knowledge of the make-up of the Human DNA [genomics]. Soon humans are on the way to understand the connectivity of the brain neurons [Connectome].
With such knowledge as above humans will be able to understand more precisely why the majority cling to an illusional god despite the impossibility of God's existence.
Note there is a lot of knowledge out there where one can take the initiative to learn how to control one's lower impulses.
Whereas the Quran is all talk and has no effective tools to enable Muslims to control their 'evil' impulses. That is why there are is so much evil and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.


Whatever you present by relying on God's words is groundless. That is only good for your soteriological and psychological needs.



Quote:
Also in terms of Islam being a religion of peace or being "evil", first of all, Islam is a pragmatic faith which is based on human nature or the "fitrah" that Allah (swt) created mankind with. Islam takes the action that people are already inclined to naturally do and reforms those actions to conform with the worship of Allah (swt). For example, people naturally have sex so Islam reforms sex to be an act for marital relations ONLY to make it halal. People fight each other, so Islam reforms fighting to be for jihad fi sabeel Allah (swt) ONLY to make it halal. People are nationalistic, so Islam reforms that by making brotherhood in Islam and loyalty to God the highest form of human bonding beyond tribalism and race etc we can go on and on. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) dealt with the human condition, Islam reformed the traits of people which were already inside of them but was misdirected or had false intentions. He said, the best of you in ignorance are the best of you in Islam. [And what the Christians say of him is irrelevant, because they are not monotheists to begin with. As someone who grew up in the church and turned to atheism after seeing people literally worship statues of Jesus (as) and other things in church, they're opinions do not matter since they do not even follow their own book and literally mock Allah's (swt) oneness.]
Islam is not meant to be a pragmatic faith where it matters.
The words of Allah are immutable and fixed without room for compromise [where it matters].
I do agree Islam is effective to some degrees to rein in the more barbaric and beastly humans of the past and the present. However Islam is not an effective religion for the future for progressive humans where a more flexible and dynamic religion/spirituality is required.
The more dynamic Eastern religions are more flexible to adapt to the more volative changes in the future.

Quote:
ISLAM is a religion of peace AND justice. Justice has to come before the peace can come, which is where jihad comes from. Allah (swt) said, And if it were not for Allah checking [some] people by means of others, the earth would have been corrupted, but Allah is full of bounty to the worlds. and And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" The person who claimed that the deen of Islam was "inherently evil" should define what is evil which he will not be able to because he has no religion, all he has is culture which is not enough since Allah (swt) said, "And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.”.
Islam is inherently both good and evil.
I define 'evil' as any act or thought that is net-negative to the well being of the individual, the group and humanity. Evil comes in degrees from 1%low [e.g. lying, stealing, greed, pride, etc] to 100% high [genocides, mass rapes, mass beheadings].
More than 55% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.
Its resultant is proven by the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims all over the world.

Quote:
If a person wants to remain atheist let him, if he believes that the universe exists with the law of physic, law of gravity, law of nature etc but that Allah (swt) has no law for human beings then let him. And if he believes that religion is for children let him, even though everything in this world is based off of religion.
Even the secularism which you atheist guys trump and are trying to spread worldwide is essentially based on religion. In secularism law is treated like sacred text, the founding fathers get treated like prophets, the flag is treated like a holy relic, and the state/government is treated like a diety who always knows best for you. So if you believe that you can run away from religion, continue believing that even though your atheist governance and culture that has been set up worldwide over Allah's (swt) law is actually embedded in pseudo religious symbolism. I know from personal experience that the same people who swear there is no God, are the same people you catch who believe in luck, zodiac signs, father time, mother nature etc). Some of them even worship their ownselves and their intelligence. They've simply replaced Allah (swt) with another deity without even realizing it. Whatever you base your reality on is your religion. But if you want to be smart, then come to the REAL religion Islam instead of the fake pseudo religion of atheism which simply replaces Allah (swt) with something else and convinces its followers that they know more than anybody else even though they are weak men like us who cannot even control their own heartbeat or lungs inside their bodies but feel that human beings are in control of everything around them without Allah (swt).
The problem is Islam-in-part [not whole] will not leave the atheists alone.
As inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran, SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims will kill atheists and kuffar whenever they are provided with their own perceived justifications and opportunities.


Btw, your views of atheists [non-theists] is from ignorance and bad logical thinking [i.e. generalization]. Note in principle, all Buddhists are atheists and they have the highest and most refined philosophies of human-ness. Thus your blanket condemnation of atheists above is wrong.


I am very familiar with the doctrines, philosophy and teachings of all the mainstream religions. Like most religions, Islam do provide the instant ease and soteriological security to Muslim in the face of inevitable death [Quran 3:185].
However, from a comparative perspective, Islam is relatively the most inferior religion among the mainstream religions because of its terrible malignant side effects.
No other religions at present has contributed to so much terrible evils and violence as Islam-in-part. The proof is solid and sound from the glaring evidences of the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-28-2015 at 03:23 AM..
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:01 AM
 
3,935 posts, read 5,597,592 times
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Originally Posted by kadadah View Post
they should condemn more
This article agrees with you. There are some surprising items (to me )One, in the comments, the second one, FBI said they were told to "stand down" when they reported the activities of one of the 9/11 terrorists, before 9/11. Obama wants everyone to befriend and work with the Muslims, but they themselves only communicate with a few of the big groups such as CAIR. If someone is arresting anyone in a mosque, they have to take off their socks.

We'll never be able to aggressively pursue the terrorists, says John Guandolo because the muslim groups are the very ones advising our government. I think everyone has known that for quite awhile. I read some things in the article that I hadn't heard before. Good article. For some reason I can't copy any of it except for the website.

Fmr. FBI Counterterrorism Agent: We
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